PS363 How do you play???

[richg99]

First (and second) of many (perhaps dumb) questions. Sorry.

I have a YT360/PSR-E363
From the manual, I have learned that, to use the 1/2/3 finger left-hand chord system, to play an X7 cord, you hit the Root note and the white key immediately to the Left.   That seems to work just fine on Major chords.

I have a piece that requires an  F#.   I presume I just play the F# key, and the white key below it (E).  Just need verification that my interpretation of the system is correct, please.

Second question. The piece also requires an F6 chord.  Nowhere in the manual does it discuss playing an F6 (or any X-6) chord.  I presume I play the F key and some key below it, but I do not know which one.  Any help much appreciated.

Also, if there is any place that I can simply look up the answers to these questions, and not bother the group, please let me know. 

Thank You. richg99

[SciNote]

I'm not 100% sure about how to play the 7th chord on that keyboard, but when I just tried it on my PSR-E433, if you want F#7 with the easy-play chords, you play the F# and then F just to the left of the F#, not the E.  It looks like, regardless of whether you are playing a white-key chord or a black-key chord, if you want the minor of that chord, you play the root note and the black key closest to the left of the root note you are playing, if you want a 7th chord, you play the root note and the white key closest to the left of the root note you are playing, and if you want a minor-7th chord, you play the root note and both the black and white keys that are closest to the left of the root note you are playing.

This can result in some significant variations, depending on the chords you are playing.  For example, to play a G minor chord, you play the G, and then the Gb (or F#) directly adjacent to the left of the G -- a "distance" of only a single semi-tone.  But to play an F# minor chord, since you have to play the black key closest to the left of the root note (along with the root note), in this case, that is the D# (or Eb) a whole minor third to the left, which you of course also play along with the root note of F#.

Now, for that F6 chord?  Fugghettaboutit!  These simplified easy-play chord systems are not sophisticated enough to handle the numerous varieties of enhanced and jazz-type chords, and if they were, this would require enough keys to be pressed and enough complicated rules that you might as well learn how to play the actual chord!  F-A-C-D, in this case, by the way.

With that said, a semi-workaround with a sixth chord would be to play the minor-7th of the chord a minor 3rd below the root of the 6th chord that you want, as that chord would contain the same notes.  So, with our F6 chord consisting of the notes F-A-C-D, you could play the D minor7 chord of D-A-C-F -- same notes, just a different inversion.  So, you'd get these notes with the easy-play system by playing the D, and then the black and white keys immediately closest to the left of the D, which would be the Db and the C.  This will get you the D minor7, containing the same notes as the F6, but of course, it will also be playing a bass line based on "D", instead of "F", which is why I said this is a "semi-workaround."

Finally, don't worry about "bothering the group."  That's what we're here for! 

[SeaGtGruff]

Don't worry about "bothering" us, because this is why we're here. (This site isn't called "PSR Tutorial" for nothing!)

If you need to play an F#7, the white key to the left of F# would be the F key, not the E key— even though technically speaking the E would indeed be the seventh note.

The keyboard should display the abbreviated name of the chord on the LCD screen, so you can use that to see whether you're fingering the intended chord correctly.

You can always play the full chord, or often a certain minimum number of keys in the chord— that is, some chords let you omit specific notes and the keyboard will still recognize the chord correctly.

There's a chart or list that shows all of the chords recognized when you use full-fingering, and which notes can be omitted from the chord, but I can't find it in the PSR-E363 Song Book, so you may want to download the PSR-E463 Song Book for that chart— or I can look it up later and post it here.

EDIT: It looks like Bob/SciNote and I were replying at the same time.

EDIT 2: The chord chart is on page 7 of the PSR-E463 Song Book, which you can download here:

https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/8/1162718/psre463_ew410_songbook_midi.zip

[SciNote]

...

EDIT: It looks like Bob/SciNote and I were replying at the same time.

...

Ninja post!  I remember that happening once before a few years ago.  And I think back then, it was with something that had been posted for days, and I finally got around to responding, and you and I responded at the exact same time!

[richg99]

"Responding at the same time"...Great minds run in the same channels.  Ha Ha

Thanks for the responses and help.  It makes more sense than what I was doing.

(more questions coming .........as I muddle along) 
richg99

p.s. The area that I need the very most help in is....how to choose the right Style for the accompaniment of various songs.   On another Yamaha site, a fellow posted a long list of "pairings" of suggested Styles for various individual song titles.  Since I have such a rudimentary machine, I didn't have those Styles available...but I think I could download them somehow.

[DrakeM]

For playing the keyboard using the simple 3 finger method, you can not make an F6 chord, you simply play an F chord and nobody will notice it.

The only chords you can make using the simple 3 finger method are as follows in these examples:

C   C7  Cm  Cm7

A  A7  Am  Am7

E  E7  Em  Em7 

For playing popular music that is all you will need. If you are playing Bach (ie Classical) type of music, you can't achieve playing that sort of music using the simply chord method.

If you get a notation like:   Dm7/G   ... just play the second chord noted ...the "G" chord.

I play using the simple Chord method and I have hundreds of my recordings using only the simple chord method in my SIGNATURE LINK below. You can check them out and see for yourself (and hear for yourself) what you can produce with these arrangers.

Using the simple Chord method will also allow you to use the pitch/bend wheels (or the new toggle). It makes it possible and much easier to make those guitar strings sound like they are bending.

I play by ear and only play the keyboard in the key of "C" but I transpose (using that special key on all arrangers) into any key I need or want to sing the song in. Thus I have only bothered to learn the C scale and the Blues C scale.

Ask any thing here at the forum and you will be MANY different ways to play these arrangers.

Regards
Drake

[SciNote]

"Responding at the same time"...Great minds run in the same channels.  Ha Ha

Thanks for the responses and help.  It makes more sense than what I was doing.

(more questions coming .........as I muddle along) 
richg99

p.s. The area that I need the very most help in is....how to choose the right Style for the accompaniment of various songs.   On another Yamaha site, a fellow posted a long list of "pairings" of suggested Styles for various individual song titles.  Since I have such a rudimentary machine, I didn't have those Styles available...but I think I could download them somehow.

For me, it's just a matter of trial and error.  The different styles are arranged in groups, like Rock, Dance, Country, and so on.  So, you can start there by looking at that particular group of styles based on the type of song you are playing.  Then just go through each style of the group, listening to its background at the correct tempo, and you can even play along with it a little bit, to see if it sounds right to you.  If not, then try the next style in the group.  With the dozens of styles built into these keyboards, there is usually one onboard that will work, unless its some really esoteric song or something with an exotic time signature.

[SeaGtGruff]

If you get a notation like:   Dm7/G   ... just play the second chord noted ...the "G" chord.

That's interesting, and good to know!

[SeaGtGruff]

I have printed (to PDF) the chord-related pages from the PSR-E463 Song Book as well as from the PSR-E403 Owner's Manual.

The page from the Song Book is a nice 1-page summary showing two types of chord fingerings and the chords you can play with them. Any notes that can be omitted without confusing the keyboard as to which chord you want it to use are shown with a pair of parentheses around them.

The three pages from the Owner's Manual go into a little more detail. The first page (page 2 of the PDF) is very similar to the page from the Song Book, but in a slightly different format. The remaining two pages briefly explain chord theory (page 3), then list the chords that the keyboard recognizes, different naming/notational/abbreviation conventions for them, and important footnotes.

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[vbdx66]

"Responding at the same time"...Great minds run in the same channels.  Ha Ha

Thanks for the responses and help.  It makes more sense than what I was doing.

(more questions coming .........as I muddle along) 
richg99

p.s. The area that I need the very most help in is....how to choose the right Style for the accompaniment of various songs.   On another Yamaha site, a fellow posted a long list of "pairings" of suggested Styles for various individual song titles.  Since I have such a rudimentary machine, I didn't have those Styles available...but I think I could download them somehow.

Hi Rich,

If you are a beginner and you don't know which style to choose for a particular song, there are a few workarounds:

1. If the song you want to play is in a book with sheet music arranged for keyboard, a suggestion for a style will be mentioned, for instance "Rock", "Slow Ballad", "Waltz", "Rhumba", "Swing" or whatever.

2. On the PSR E363, you have a feature called the Music Database which gives you pre-made registrations with the accurate style, tempo, Main and Dual voices etc., for many well-known songs. The only drawback of this system is that the names of the songs are "cryptic", I.e., they were modified to avoid copyright issues. It is a good idea to fiddle around with the Music Database since it can give you some arranging ideas for well-known songs.

3. Simply do to the Styles/OTS section of the Forum and ask other members which style they would use for the song you want to play. You can either ask them for a suggestion about the styles which are on the keyboard, or ask them to send you a style if there is no suitable one on the E363. But when you are beginning, with 165 onboard styles, chances are that you will find what you are looking for in the onboard styles library.

4. If you want to extend your chordal command, do some research on YouTube. Go and look for the chord tutorials on the YouTube channels of Bill Hilton, Karen Ramirez and Duane Shinn, to name but a few. The videos by Karen Ramirez are rather old, but they were made for beginners and some years ago, they helped me immensely to fathom the mysteries of chords played on an arranger keyboard.

Hope this helps,

Regards,

Vinciane

[SeaGtGruff]

As far as choosing which style to use, one suggestion is to try using whatever style strikes your fancy, even if it doesn't seem like it "fits" the song you want to play.

Sometimes the more interesting performances of a song are those in which the song is played or sung using a style that's very different from the original or best-known rendition of the song.

[richg99]

Thank you ALL for your help here, and especially the PDF.  My small "manual" says some of the same things, but all assistance is very much appreciated.

I have much to learn (as you can see).   

Incidentally, the Song that caused my queries is a very simplified version of White Christmas that I found online.

One wouldn't think that I could be confused so easily.  Ha Ha 

A mention was made of "songs books designed for the Keyboard".  Any recommendations for specific basic books, that are set up for a keyboard, would be appreciated.

I bought a Fake Book at the suggestion of my first teacher.  It has tons of songs, along with suggested chords, of course.  But, the Accompaniment and Style selection leaves this old codger in the dark.

[vbdx66]

Hi Rich,

Have a look at « The complete keyboard player » by Kenneth Baker. It is a series of learning books which were designed especially for people beginning to learn to play an arranger keyboard.

Go to the Sheet Music section of the Forum, it is'possible that someone might send you a copy of one or more of these books.

Fake books are more meant for jazz players who already know some jazz harmony and want to improvise over standards. They contain lead sheets with only the tune's melody and sometimes very intricate chord symbols from which you are supposed to devise the accompaniment all by yourself.

Hope this helps,

Vinciane

[mikf]

Rich
The important thing in playing is to walk before you run. The chords -6ths, 7ths 9ths - and everything else, are all important to good players trying to get the best sound. The simplified chord system is aimed at people learning, hence it does not produce all the complex stuff. Don't worry about yet.
Your first task is to learn to synchronize even these simple chord changes with your RH melody and play in time.
As Drake says, there is a lot of music that you can make that will sound OK with only simple harmony. In time you might want to move to the ext level, but for now start simple.
As far as choosing styles, one of the misconceptions of new arranger players is thinking there is a 'right' style for a song. There is no right or wrong, it's your choice, to play what sounds good to you.  It here is a couple of tips.
It's not as hard as it seems to make a reasonable style guess. Tempo is the first decision. Don't just start the style at the default tempo. Play the song in your head and tap the  beat. Most songs are 4 beats to the bar, which is why it's called common time. The styles are divided into genres and a little trial and error will point you to the possible genre. The select a style and using the tempo tap device hum the tune and tap in the tempo. Then start the style and play a couple of chords. Hum the tune in your head. Does it sound reasonable with that style and tempo? If so - try playing, if not try something else.
Practice, practice, practice.
Mike

[richg99]

Thanks, guys and gals.

Uhhhh...What is this ..practice...stuff to which you refer?  Ha Ha Ha

[mikf]

If you get a notation like:   Dm7/G   ... just play the second chord noted ...the "G" chord.
Drake - Got to disagree with that. What you are doing is following your ear, which is OK. But it only works in this particular case because there happens to be a strong relationship between chord 2 and the dominant - which are Dmin and G in key of C. Unfortunately you cant use that one case where you can get away with it, to develop a simplified genearal rule.
In slash chord notation the first notes refer to the chord and the note behind the slash is the preferred bass note. That second note could be anything eg Dmin/C# or Dmaj/C - both not uncommon. But if you played C#maj or the Cmaj chords in these cases it would sound very wrong. 
If there has to be a simplified alternative, especially for people using the single finger chord system,  it would have to be - play the chord before the slash, and ignore the bass note behind the slash.
Cheers
Mike

[SeaGtGruff]

I believe there's a "chord type" that's triggered by playing two of the same note in the accompaniment zone, an octave apart— i.e., C1 and C2, or D1 and D2, etc. It's supposed to play an accompaniment that's based solely on the "root" note, which is what the "two octave" note is assumed to be. Maybe this could be used with those slash chords, to force the accompaniment to play the indicated note (and only the indicated note?) for the Bass and Phrase parts— although I don't yet know how it works (I'll have to try it and see), or whether the Chord and Pad parts will play the indicated major chord (which, as Mike/mikf pointed out, might not sound good).

EDIT — Sorry, I was thinking out loud. I really should try it before suggesting it, so I know exactly what I'm suggesting!

[mikf]

That root note accompaniment certainly works in the 'fingered' settings, and I have always assumed that it is because that is what you are actually fingering - there are no other chord notes. I am not sure if it also works on the single fingered setting. But it might, but I think its more than a new player needs anyway.
The single fingered setting is a great thing to get people started playing real music quite quickly on an arranger. But it does have several limitations. I believe there is a crossover point, where it might be easier, and definitely more beneficial long term, to learn fingered chords than try to remember all the various ways to produce more sophisticated chords in the single fingered mode.
When people are ready to move on from the single fingered mode, they should read this post from a while ago, that shows there really are only three basic chord positions to learn. The rest - even the most complex chords - are all logical and simple alterations from these three positions.
https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,47346.msg371073.html#msg371073

[DonM]

Advice from an old man...do yourself a HUGE favor and skip the 1 finger chords.  It is easy to learn to play three-finger chords correctly.
Because the Yamaha system of 1 finger chords is not musically correct, it will limit your ability to progress. 
There is another chord mode that allows one finger chording but makes the minors, 7ths, etc., in a musically correct way, and also allows you to make more complex chords as you get more experience. 

[SeaGtGruff]

I am not sure if it also works on the single fingered setting. But it might, but I think its more than a new player needs anyway.
The single fingered setting is a great thing to get people started playing real music quite quickly on an arranger. But it does have several limitations.

Actually, on the PSR-E models there's no way to change the chord-fingering setting; it's always set to "multi-fingering" (I think it's called), which automatically uses either the easy-fingering mode or full-fingering mode depending on which keys you're pressing.

But yes, on other models there is usually a setting that selects which fingering mode should be used, and it's generally better for someone who's learning to play the keyboard to use normal chord fingering, and switch to any available shortcuts later on, after having acquired a good understanding of chords.

[mikf]

I didn't know that about the PSR E series.
Mike

[SeaGtGruff]

I didn't know that about the PSR E series.
Mike

Yep, just one more common setting they don't have!

[SciNote]

If you get a notation like:   Dm7/G   ... just play the second chord noted ...the "G" chord.
Drake - Got to disagree with that. What you are doing is following your ear, which is OK. But it only works in this particular case because there happens to be a strong relationship between chord 2 and the dominant - which are Dmin and G in key of C. Unfortunately you cant use that one case where you can get away with it, to develop a simplified genearal rule.
In slash chord notation the first notes refer to the chord and the note behind the slash is the preferred bass note. That second note could be anything eg Dmin/C# or Dmaj/C - both not uncommon. But if you played C#maj or the Cmaj chords in these cases it would sound very wrong. 
If there has to be a simplified alternative, especially for people using the single finger chord system,  it would have to be - play the chord before the slash, and ignore the bass note behind the slash.
Cheers
Mike

This is what I also always thought, as well.  Yet it seems like some people interpret the "slash chords" to be two chords played at the same time, which seems kind of odd.  In other words, if I see "G/D", I never thought that meant to play a G major chord (G-B-D) and a D major chord (D-F#-A) together.  And in fact, if that was the case, then why not just call it what it is -- a G major 9 chord, in this case.  But I always thought that "G/D" simply meant to play a G major chord but play a D bass note along with it, instead of the G bass note that you'd otherwise normally play.

[DonM]

"But I always thought that "G/D" simply meant to play a G major chord but play a D bass note along with it, instead of the G bass note that you'd otherwise normally play."
That's exactly what it means.
And yes, Multifingered is the mode I was describing earlier.  You can so single note or multinotes, and the Single note chords are musically correct, as in adding an Eb to a C to make C minor.

[vbdx66]

Yep, just one more common setting they don't have!

Yes, this is really a pity that there isn't more choice for chord fingering/recognition on the PSR E series. At Casio, even entry-level keyboards have on-bass chords and full keyboard range chord recognition. I wished the PSR E363/463 had this feature which makes the auto-accompaniment usage much more musical.

Vinciane

[DerekA]

Yes, this is really a pity that there isn't more choice for chord fingering/recognition on the PSR E series. At Casio, even entry-level keyboards have on-bass chords and full keyboard range chord recognition. I wished the PSR E363/463 had this feature which makes the auto-accompaniment usage much more musical.

I'd agree - it's quite surprising the difference that slashed/on-bass chords make to the feel of the music.

[panos]

In "piano" mode or with full keyboard modes yes they do,
but no difference at all with the AI fingered mode lots of us are using.
The style parts will keep playing the same pattern no matter which the bass chord is.

Learning the chords with 3 or 4 fingers also will help your right hand to "remember" and play the melody of a song better, I believe and also will show you the notes of the song's music scale.

[mikf]

Yet it seems like some people interpret the "slash chords" to be two chords played at the same time, which seems kind of odd.

Not odd - just out and out wrong like Don says - but it certainly will sound odd
There is a little trick many piano players use all the time though, where they play a sus chord like a back to front slash chord. By that I mean they play Gsus by playing G bass in their left and an F chord in their right. Try it, it is an easy way to read and play sus chords on piano and produces a great hanging sound which resolves to G. But it's a little difficult for conventional split keyboard arranger playing. It could also be written F/G, but it's a great way to interpret Gsus.
I'm way off the subject now though so think I'll head out and see if I can make some money in my Wednesday skins game - Don will appreciate that
Mike

[DonM]

It was 84 here yesterday, unfortunately my score was even higher than that.  Getting old is quite detrimental to golf.  It doesn't affect music nearly as much! 
Talk about getting off topic! 

[Gourock]

Is the Music Database that was on the e363 available on the e463?

Thanks