Don't leave your sliders all the way down!

StuartR · January 04, 2019, 08:50:02 AM

I've read all about the problems with the Genos sliders and knobs since they're not encoders. Up until recently I hadn't really had any significant problems with them as I don't make many dynamic changes during play. But one thing has bit me several times now and so I thought it deserved mention.

I have a bad habit (OCD fueled I'm sure) of setting the sliders to the zero (lowest) position when not in use. This turns out to be a horrible idea because any slight vibration of the keyboard due to normal playing causes at least one of the sliders to jump to its default value of zero. This has happened to me at least 3 times and my far right slider (Mic) jumped to zero (no output).

Instant panic!

Wound up rebooting the Genos because I didn't notice the output level of the Mic slider had jumped to zero. It's not easy to see with all the glowing and blinking lights (and before you question this, yes I'm a computer professional by trade and lived around this stuff for over 40 years, but I digress).

Now that I'm mentioning it I'm sure some of you are thinking what idiot would ever set these non-encoder sliders to zero. Well even if you didn't intend for this to happen, if it does watch out. With all the stuff going on with this keyboard during live stage play it's too easy to overlook something like this.

A kind word to the wise!

Al Ram · January 04, 2019, 04:53:40 PM

thanks. something to consider . . . .

Joe H · January 04, 2019, 05:38:51 PM

I can't say how well encoder code works with faders because they have a minimum and maximum throw. If you can set the value with the data wheel then leaving them on center position would work best.

The encoder knobs are a different story since they do not have a minimum / maximum stop point but just go round and round and pickup the current value of the parameter. That is the real value of encoder software code... smooth changes to parameters no matter what the current setting is. I hope Yamaha will implement encoder knobs and faders in future arrangers as they have the with Motif keyboards and sound modules. It is far superior to traditional pots.

Joe H

MarkF_48 · January 04, 2019, 07:20:19 PM

Quote from: Joe H on January 04, 2019, 05:38:51 PM
I can't say how well encoder code works with faders because they have a minimum and maximum throw. If you can set the value with the data wheel then leaving them on center position would work best.

The encoder knobs are a different story since they do not have a minimum / maximum stop point but just go round and round and pickup the current value of the parameter. That is the real value of encoder software code... smooth changes to parameters no matter what the current setting is. I hope Yamaha will implement encoder knobs and faders in future arrangers as they have the with Motif keyboards and sound modules. It is far superior to traditional pots.

Joe H

And Yamaha does stock replacements for encoders for when they fail. Two of my Yamaha synths had encoder failures within about four to five years. One of the synths started to exhibit jumpy data and couldn't be set reliably, the other sometimes intermittently wouldn't increment. Fortunately fairly easy to get to to replace in both units. Two Alesis pieces of gear and a Zoom guitar pedal I own also developed similar encoder issues. Alesis readily had the encoders I needed in stock. The Zoom pedal I think I got some contact cleaner to seep into it which for the time being is working. Encoders are wonderful when they work right, not so much when they don't.
Most of the gear I have that employs a resistive potentiometer/slider for data entry is fairly new. Not had any long term experience with these yet, but they are nice and smooth in their functioning.

Joe H · January 05, 2019, 11:23:13 AM

Mark,

You are right about the encoder hardware. I have a faulty encoder knob on my Proteus sound module and the data jumps all over the place. I'm getting ready to replace the knob. On my Motif Rack, the encoder knobs work flawlessly.

Interestingly enough, my Peavey MIDI hardware controller has a function called replace (incoming data) for its 16 faders. The firmware reads the incoming MIDI channel messages and starts the change from there. If the faders are in the center position it works well, if the faders are near minimum or maximum position it doesn't work so well.

So it appears the Peavey programmer found a way to implement code that simulates encoder code.

Joe H

pjd · January 05, 2019, 04:42:43 PM

Quote from: Joe H on January 05, 2019, 11:23:13 AM
So it appears the Peavey programmer found a way to implement code that simulates encoder coder.

Hi Joe --

If Yamaha doesn't give us hardware encoders, then they really need to study Peavey, Nord, and whoever else has cracked this problem. Count me in for improvements in slider/knobs behaviour.

All the best -- pj

valimaties · January 07, 2019, 04:38:54 AM

I have also a problem with linear faders and its position, but was my fault, because they was set to show me Style General Volume, SongVolume, etc. And the style fader was near the volume of 10-15... I hit a little bit that fader with my finger and the volume of style was reduced from 100 to 10 or 15, I don't remember exactly. I did that during singing and you realize I was scared badly because for a moment I did not realize what had happened

! But instinctively I looked at second screen and I saw Style Volume was down...

The same thing can happening with volumes if they are at the top position and a channel has its volume set for minimum value (0-20 or 30).. If the fader is up and you move a little bit, it will sound very bad for a second, till you reduce the volume...
And this had happened to P Baartmans as well, in his first demo to Genos.

PS: I think the best solution will be magnetic faders like those which Behringer mixers uses

In this way, when you select a page for sliders they will automatically change its position to that which OS will read for each assignment.

Regards,
Vali

PierreSW · January 07, 2019, 10:53:27 AM

Quote from: valimaties on January 07, 2019, 04:38:54 AM
I have also a problem with linear faders and its position, but was my fault, because they was set to show me Style General Volume, SongVolume, etc. And the style fader was near the volume of 10-15... I hit a little bit that fader with my finger and the volume of style was reduced from 100 to 10 or 15, I don't remember exactly. I did that during singing and you realize I was scared badly because for a moment I did not realize what had happened ! But instinctively I looked at second screen and I saw Style Volume was down...

The same thing can happening with volumes if they are at the top position and a channel has its volume set for minimum value (0-20 or 30).. If the fader is up and you move a little bit, it will sound very bad for a second, till you reduce the volume...
And this had happened to P Baartmans as well, in his first demo to Genos.

PS: I think the best solution will be magnetic faders like those which Behringer mixers uses In this way, when you select a page for sliders they will automatically change its position to that which OS will read for each assignment.

Regards,
Vali

Hi!
This has happened to me too, amazingly, that you can build in such bad sliders, in such an expensive machine as Genos.

Can Yamaha re-program so that the slider does not react until you reach the set value?

Greetings Pierre

StuartR · January 07, 2019, 11:50:12 AM

Quote from: PierreSW on January 07, 2019, 10:53:27 AM
Hi!
This has happened to me too, amazingly, that you can build in such bad sliders, in such an expensive machine as Genos.

Can Yamaha re-program so that the slider does not react until you reach the set value?

Greetings Pierre

They certainly could or at least make that a configurable option because it would cause the sliders to have a certain amount of travel without any effect when enabled. Not a bad idea on first thought.

Another possibility is to allow the option of disabling the real time sliders or knobs completely so as to eliminate the side effect of accidental movement.

Joe H · January 07, 2019, 11:48:09 PM

Peavey also offers a feature to "Mute" a fader when you hold down a certain button. When holding that button you an move the fader without sending any data. And then there is another feature where you can assigned the button below the fader to... "Send Fader". How that works is you watch the display for the fader... set the value you want... then press the button below the fader to send that single fader value.

I was asked by Peavey as a "Power User" along with several others to offer suggestions for the PC1600x v2.2 firmware upgrade. John Fera (the programmer) at Peavey was smart enough to ask the users what they wanted to see in the next firmware upgrade. Several of my suggestions were incorporated into the upgrade. (but more could have been done) I was disappointed when I heard the PC1600x was being discontinued.

The PC1600x has been a workhorse in my MIDI studio since the late 1990's... I would be lost without it.

I think Yamaha could definitely learn a thing or two from this legacy MIDI hardware controller. The thing is... Peavey was primarily a guitar and amp manufacturer at the time, yet produced the best MIDI controller on the market. It is totally open-ended if you understand MIDI and know how to write hexadecimal strings. It is possible to write ANY MIDI message with the device.

If Yamaha had published the full MIDI Data Formats for the arranger as they had for the MU sound modules and the Motif line of keyboards and sound modules, I could do so much more with the S970.

Joe H