My first Genos Impression (few general questions)

[SAM CA]

Hi everybody,

I finally got to play the Genos for the first time. I've owned many Yamaha workstations over the years but never a Yamaha arranger. I've had Korg arrangers for about 10 years now so that's my only point of reference when it comes to arranger keyboards. I didn't find the experience shocking or anything. It was just a different but very nice sounding keyboard. I'm mainly a home player and definitely not a vocalist, so I don't care about the features that live gigging musicians use. I don't even care much about factory styles. I'll probably end up using 15 of them. I really like to make my own Styles. I had a few general questions:

1) Can the process of creating styles be done within a DAW? If yes, can you import that midi file as a whole with markers and save as a style?

2) Does Genos support multiple time signature within the same style?

3) Are there any special style tracks that can NOT be programmed in a DAW?

Thanks

[Lee Batchelor]

Welcome, Sam! I'll start us off. More answers will soon flood in.

1 - We wish! As far as I know, Style creation is limited to the Genos. If I'm wrong, I'd challenge anyone to write out a DAW procedure that we can all understand.

2 - No. Perhaps a custom style but not with the factory styles. If so, I'd love to know how too!

3 - See #1.

[SAM CA]

Thank you Lee. Ok, let me ask this then. I'm not familiar with Genos modes, but I'm sure this will make sense. Is it possible to import a midi file in Style Record mode?

[gerarde]

Sam,

Your best bet might be to use EMC Styleworks to make a style.
You can convert a midi song into a Yamaha style.
It allows you to create the intros, variations and endings.
I have used this many times to make a song style.
An example would be Bad Moon Rising by CCR, with the correct intros, endings, etc.

Gerard

[SAM CA]

Thank you Gerard,
That won't work as I don't use pre-existing midi files at all. I want to be able to create my styles from scratch. It's just I like to use a DAW to finish the structure/arrangement. Import or load the midi file directly into the keyboard and then add the effects...etc. In other words, I'd like to have full control over the process from start to end. I could even do this with the discontinued Pa800. so Genos does not accept a midi file in Style record mode then?

[gerarde]

No Sam, the Genos does not do a midi file to style.
What I have done using Styleworks is convert a midi file to a style, then tweak the style in the Genos.
Here is a linkt to some of what Styleworks does.
Scroll down to where it says song to style converter.
http://www.emc-musicsoftware.de/eng-shop/eng-dscstw.htm

Gerard

[SAM CA]

Gerard,

I think there's a misunderstanding here. I'm not talking about a midi to style converter feature at all. The Pa4x has one of those. It's basically a bot. You load a midi file (Ex: MJ's Thriller). It process it and comes up with a style file based on THAT midi file. It's a fully automated feature. That's not what I'm after.

What I'm trying to do is this. To keep it simple, i'd like to create a midi file in a DAW based on the Genos specification. Say Genos has the Style tracks assigned to channels 1-9. Can I export a midi file from a DAW based on the Genos specifications and then load and save it as a native Genos Style? I do not want to convert anything.

This is not just about creating new styles. What if I wanted to export an existing Genos style as midi, bring it in my DAW and edit, and load it back in the Genos. In that case, this won't be possible either, cause it's the same process.

[gerarde]

You won't be able to save your midi file as a style in the Genos.
IF you have a ins file for the Genos, you can use the voices and play the midi file in the Genos.
But, that is not what you want.
I haven't used style creator much so I don't know if you can use any part of your midi file to create a style.
That would be nice if you had a midi file for the intro, one for each variation, and one for each ending and import them to create the style.
Maybe someone else has more experience with this.

Gerard

[hans1966]

Hi Sam CA, the best thing is that you explore the GENOS style creator, I know it's a lot of work, but in the end it will be worth it. greetings Hans

[SAM CA]

Thank you Hans. Do you know if this Style Creator is something like Style Record mode in Korg arrangers?

[EileenL]

Style creator lets you produce your own style from scratch. You must how ever stick to a few rules as styles on Yamaha are written in C major7 key so will only accept certain notes in the main ABCD sections but they are not restricted on the intros and endings. This is because when playing these you hit the first chord of your song and let it play through. With the style variations you are playing different chords so the notes in the variation must be as stated by Yamaha.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=How+to+create+style+on+Yamaha+keyboard&docid=607989985434600909&mid=7A27E635E9EDB0A07E427A27E635E9EDB0A07E42&view=detail&FORM=VIREHT

[Lee Batchelor]

Eileen, I believe the template chord is Cmaj7, correct? Not just C maj? There's a big difference.

[EileenL]

Yes of course Lee. Thank you for picking up on it. I'm getting to old for this

[SAM CA]

Style creator lets you produce your own style from scratch....

Thank you Eileen,
but can it be done in an external sequencer?

[rdiazhin]

What I'm trying to do is this. To keep it simple, i'd like to create a midi file in a DAW based on the Genos specification. Say Genos has the Style tracks assigned to channels 1-9. Can I export a midi file from a DAW based on the Genos specifications and then load and save it as a native Genos Style? I do not want to convert anything.

This is not just about creating new styles. What if I wanted to export an existing Genos style as midi, bring it in my DAW and edit, and load it back in the Genos. In that case, this won't be possible either, cause it's the same process.

Yes, you can do that in a DAW software. A style file is a midi file with .STY or .PRS extension, so you just need to rename the style file extension to .mid, open it in your DAW and edit it. Then rename it back to the original extension and load into Genos, Tyros, PSR, etc.

Keep in mind that editing the file may alter or loss the CASM data, so the style may not sound as originally and you may need to adjust CASM parameters using the style editor on the keyboard.

Using a proffesional DAW software such as Cubase or Cakewalk is recommended.

New styles can be made from midi files in DAW as long as you keep the YAMAHA structure for channels and markers, and transposing all tracks to CMaj7.

For new styles from midi files, the result depends of the quality of the midi source and as final step you have to use the style creator on the keyboard to add CASM data. You can use also Mix Master and other free tools available to add the CASM data to the style file.

[SAM CA]

Yes, you can do that in a DAW software. A style file is a midi file with .STY or .PRS extension, so you just need to rename the style file extension to .mid, open it in your DAW and edit it. Then rename it back to the original extension and load into Genos, Tyros, PSR, etc.

Keep in mind that you editing the file may alter or loss the CASM data, so the style may not sound as originally and you may need to adjust CASM parameters using the style editor on the keyboard.

Using a proffesional DAW software such as Cubase or Cakewalk is recommended.

New styles can be made from midi files in DAW as long as you keep the YAMAHA structure for channels and markers, and transposing all tracks to CMaj7.

For new styles from midi files, the result depends of the quality of the midi source and as final step you have to use the style creator on the keyboard to add CASM data. You can use also Mix Master and other free tools available to add the CASM data to the style file.

Thanks a lot! That's exactly what I wanted to know.

[pjd]

 The best suggestion that I can make is reading Jørgen's style creation course:

http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/articles/style_creation_course.pdf
http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/articles/keyboard_and_style.pdf

If folks don't like PDF, there are on-line versions of the same articles:

http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/articles.htm

Honest to goodness, Jørgen has done a super job!

Another excellent resource is "Style Files - Introduction and Details" by Peter Wierzba and Michael Bedesem:

http://www.wierzba.homepage.t-online.de/StyleFileDescription_v21.pdf

This document and other very useful information are published on Peter's site:

https://psrtutorial.com/util/wierzba.html

Anyone who is interested in creating new styles really needs to know what is inside of a style file -- not just hand-waving, but to know in enough depth to start editing.

Another alternative is the high-level tool MidiSoft Style Magic:

http://www.midisoft.pl/en/

Even then, a modest amount of background information is needed.

Once someone has the background, I encourage them to read a few existing articles at my site. Parts 2 and 3 of the series:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/mox-perf-to-psr-style-part-1/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/mox-perf-to-psr-style-part-2/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/mox-perf-to-psr-style-part-3/

describe translation of a Standard Midi File to a style. Another potentially useful article is about converting the Yamaha DJX II patterns to styles:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/mining-the-yamaha-djx-ii/

So, there are already quite a few resources available. Jørgen, Michael and Peter have really shown the way!

One more suggestion. Crack open a style file with a DAW and look inside. First, change the file name extension to ".mid" by renaming the file. Then, open the file in a DAW like Sonar or Cubase. Poke around.

A Yamaha style file consists of "chunks." A style file must have a MIDI chunk and may contain a CASM chunk and an OTS chunk. The CASM chunk holds the NTR/NTT information that you can see and edit in PSR Style Creator. The OTS chunk holds the OTS information.

DAWs ignore the Yamaha chunks, so if you change the MIDI file, it won't have the original CASM and/or OTS chunks. That's where Jørgen's style split/splice tool comes into play. The tool splits a style file into MIDI and non-MIDI parts. After editing, the tool splices the MIDI and non-MIDI parts back together again to make a complete style file.

All the best -- pj

[pjd]

Regarding CMaj7 and style creation...

Please check out the Reference Manual section titled "SFF Edit -- Making Style File Format Settings" or something like that. In the Genos Reference Manual, it starts on page 21.

The arranger converts notes taken from the source pattern (AKA notes in a MIDI Part belonging to a style) to the actual notes sounded by the instrument. The conversion is guided by the Note Transposition Rule (NTR) and Note Transposition Table (NTT).

The NTR depends upon the Chord Root. The NTT depends upon the Chord Type. Along with NTR and NTT, you get to specify the Chord Root ("C") and the Chord Type ("M7").

The Chord Root and the Chord Type, taken together determine the Source Chord from which MIDI notes in the style phrase are taken.

Guess what? The Source Chord does not have to be "CMaj7". If you tear enough Yamaha styles apart, you'll see guitar phrases built on "E7" or some other Source Chord other than CMaj7.

CMaj7 is the default in Style Creator, so many people just go along with the default. You can use any source chord that you want. You must be sure to change the SFF definition to match accordingly.

Hope this helps out -- pj

[SAM CA]

Thank you pjd.

Everything you said is pretty similar to how it goes with Korg Pa series. Korg suggests that you use a 7th or Maj 7th chord, just because you need at least 4 notes for the chord recognition system to work properly. You're not limited to C chord at all. As long as you set the root and chord type in style record mode for each track, it doesn't matter what key you record the style.

The rest is too easy. Now that I know Genos accepts midi in this particular mode, all I have to do is to find a busy/complicated native style and import it as midi in my DAW. It'll take me 5 minutes to figure out the style structure and everything else that midi file has to offer. This is the easiest part. I'll look up the manual real quick to see what is supported and what isn't.

The part where I have no experience with are the proprietary parameters that can only be adjusted and applied on the keyboard. Of course, you can't import or export those from a DAW. This part has to be done manually on the keyboard which is fine.

[Lee Batchelor]

Come on, Eileen...you're only 39 right  .

Good info pjd. I didn't know about the fact you can use another chord as the root source. Good to know. Thanks!