Piano sound

[kmspecialties]

Does anyone have sound settings for CFx and c7 pianos. The stock sounds
seem a little thin. I have a mason and Hamlin double B right next to my speakers.
When I play a note on the genos - same octave and play the same note on double B it's not even close.

I have QSC K12s.I have some really
Good piano trio backing tracks if I play melody the genos sounds like  a $200.00 Casio
HELP HELP !!!!
Bon

[2112]

What do you exactly mean by "little thin?"

What happens if you use your speakers to play the sound from a known good piano synthesizer like Pianoteq 6 Free Demo version?

QSC K12 are sound reinforcement speakers with Class D amplifier. They aren't meant to sound good, they meant to sound loud and be able to take lots of abuse. It certainly isn't a HiFi equipment.

[BenoitM]

I, too, find that the CFX and C7 pianos are really 'thin' , it was a disappointment for me, as it was a big selling point of the Genos (but, hey, as someone else said "Marketing is all about selling the weakest point as the strongest one")

In a mix, they do their job, but when played alone they lack depth, resonance and richness. I tried to tweak them a little bit, adding some sustain, playing with the DSPs, but ironically I found the 'Grand Piano' in the 'Legacy' section more convincing ... 

A lot of things were already said about the 'thin' piano sounds of the Genos - I won't repeat them here, just seach in this forum - but the Montage got a new Bosendorfer Piano sound available to purchase (it is even free for MODX owners !). Will Yamaha make a Genos version ? Probably NOT.

The Montage received several Firmware update, some of them added major enhancement : the 2.5 version added a lot of new sounds : the entire Motif line sounds being one of them, they even added new effects ... , in contrast the Genos received some firmware update , mainly to correct lots of bugs, but not really adding major features (except 'Audio multi recording' in v1.10 and  'Voice Guide' in v1.30 which is really great for visually impaired people, but the Genos OS being at its core a Linux kernel, I guess that Yamaha did not have to create something really new and specific to support this functionalty - only my guess, not a fact -   ) the search feature is what I consider to be the biggest 'new feature' added by a Firmware Update on the Genos... A nice thing, but not a game changer...

There's still several bugs left uncorrected (again, I won't repeat them here) , and there were no update since April 2018... I still hope for a new Firmware, but my hope fades as time passes... Wait & see...

[kmspecialties]

Whoever answered my post first- no name- said the qsc's were just Amos not a quality sound. Can you make a recommendation.
Bob

[mikf]

Wouldn't it be a bit disappointing if your quality piano was not a lot better than an electronic arranger keyboard.

[gerarde]

Speakers are a personal preference as to how one perceives the sound coming from them.
For me, I had a pair of QSC K12's, then sold them to get a pair of JBL EON ONE's.
After a year, I sold the JBL"S and went back to QSC K12s.
Having 1000 watts allows for power when you need it and sound great at low volume.
And I state, IMHO......

Regards,
Gerard

[2112]

Whoever answered my post first- no name- said the qsc's were just Amos not a quality sound. Can you make a recommendation.

Well, the good recommendation would depend on what is the actual use you are planning. Do you need sound reinforcement system for gigging or do you need quality monitors for studio work and presentations in a controlled environment.

In the first case: I don't know, we were always renting locally. Although our preferred reinforcement equipment list would start with Crown Audio & JBL.

In the second case: I can wholeheartedly recommend Mackie HR824mkII. I've been using the originals (HR824) for many years and they really allowed me to quickly and decisively explain and let people hear why many of the popular & expensive sound-making contraptions from Bose or Samsung sound "interesting" but not "realistic". Mackies are one of the most neutrally voiced speakers in their price class. They don't excel at anything but don't ruin anything either.

But like majority of studio monitors they are delicate equipment. A curious cat with normal claws or inquisitive toddler will easily destroy them.

[Snicker740]

Does anyone have sound settings for CFx and c7 pianos. The stock sounds
seem a little thin. I have a mason and Hamlin double B right next to my speakers.
When I play a note on the genos - same octave and play the same note on double B it's not even close.

I have QSC K12s.I have some really
Good piano trio backing tracks if I play melody the genos sounds like  a $200.00 Casio
HELP HELP !!!!
Bon

Try my sound Piano for Genos. 

http://www.mediafire.com/file/nta404730ycn4pt/Genos_Piano_Drum_Trial.rar/file

[kmspecialties]

Hi snickers
I will try thanks a lot
Boby

[Gordon1949]

Try this layered setting for the piano:

R1 - CFX Concert Grand, EQ high minus 21, low 20, Reverb 0. 
R2 - LEGACY Grand Piano, EQ high 32, low 44, Reverb 10.
Volume equal on R1 and 2

[Bachus]

Wouldn't it be a bit disappointing if your quality piano was not a lot better than an electronic arranger keyboard.

Actually only the top high end grands sound and feel better then what a high end hybrid piano keybed combined with the finest grand piano software does..

Even the best uprights can not compete with the high end digital segment like the kawai Novus 10 and the Yamaha avantgrand..

Whats somewhat dissapointing is that yamaha does not use its high end virtual piano sampling technollogy SCM in its most expensive arranger key, while its available in A €1500 digital piano..

Noe i do understand that arranger buyers don't buy an arranger for its piano sound, but they do expect the best of every possible sound inside the €5000 Genos. Its a fact that Yamaha does not deliver on this. As both the SCM tech as well as the Bosendorfer samples didn't make it into the Genos..   a Bosendorfer would have added the more round and darker sound characteristic of the european and American grands so loved for playing solo piano pieces, which would have been a great add combined with the brighter sound of the Yamaha that cuts so well trough the mix.

While you can edit the yamaha sound, you can not add whats not there... and this makes it hard almost impossible to create a great sounding well rounded piano sound based on yamaha grand samples.. it misses mids and lows (harmonics) while having abbundant harmonics in the highs..

[pjd]

Hi --

The Montage/MODX CFX Concert Performance ("voice") consists of four parts:

Part 1 (six elements)

    El#  Waveform       VLo  VHi  NLo  NHi
    ---  -------------  ---  ---  ---  ---
     1   CFX ppp St       2   25  C-2   G8
     2   CFX pp St       20   35
     3   CFX p St        36   45
     4   CFX mp St       46   59
     5   CFX mf St       60   74
     6   CFX f St        75   92

Part 2  (three elements)

    El#  Waveform       VLo  VHi  NLo  NHi
    ---  -------------  ---  ---  ---  ---
     1   CFX ff St       93  110  C-2   G8
     2   CFX fff St     111  125
     3   CFX ffff St    126  127

Part 3 (eight elements)

    El#  Waveform       VLo  VHi  NLo  NHi
    ---  -------------  ---  ---  ---  ---
     1   CFX pp St        2   35  C-2   G8
     2   CFX p St        36   45
     3   CFX mp St       46   59
     4   CFX mf St       60   74
     5   CFX f St        75   92
     6   CFX ff St       93  110
     7   CFX fff St     111  125
     8   CFX ffff St    126  127

Part 4 (one element, XA control: Key Off)

    El#  Waveform       VLo  VHi  NLo  NHi
    ---  -------------  ---  ---  ---  ---
     1   CFX KeyOff St    1  127  C-2   G5

That's 18 elements total. The elements in Part 3 are a layer on top of the elements in Parts 1 and 2. The elements in Part 3 have different filter programming (and maybe something I haven't discovered yet...)

When I connect Genos to MODX, I can play the first three MODX Parts by sending RIGHT1, RIGHT2 and RIGHT3 on MIDI channels 1, 2 and 3. You get a pretty decent concert grand without key-off sounds.

The Montage/MODX CFX Concert Performance incorporates the Damper Resonance DSP effect, which is the same algorithm (effect type) as Genos. Damper Resonance is not the same as Clavinova's Virtual Resonance Modeling (VRM). VRM is a step up.

For the tech heads, past Clavinova models employed three tone generator integrated circuits versus Motif XF/MOXF with two. The VRM and extra layering required additional DSP and tone generation power versus synthesizers and arrangers. I don't have a clear picture of the newest generation yet, lacking the service manual for the latest CVPs.

So, given this information, Yamaha could release a full CFX expansion pack for Genos with the exception of VRM. (A fourth element in part 2 would need to handle key-off.) The full CFX voice would need RIGHT1, RIGHT2 and RIGHT3 to handle all of the extra elements and their layering. You wouldn't be able to layer anything with the full CFX voice because there ain't a RIGHT4.

Yeah, this may be TMI, but I hope it helps the discussion.

All the best -- pj

Music technology blog: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/

[pjd]

For contrast...

The single part MODX CFX Stage Performance consists of eight elements:

    El#  Waveform       VLo  VHi  NLo  NHi
    ---  -------------  ---  ---  ---  ---
     1   CFX pp St        2   35  C-2   G5
     2   CFX mp St       36   59  C-2   G5
     3   CFX f St        60   92  C-2   G5
     4   CFX fff St      93  125  C-2   G5
     5   CFX ffff St    126  127  C-2   G5
     6   CFX mf St        2   59  G#5   G8
     7   CFX fff St      60  127  G#5   G8
     8   CFX KeyOff St    1  127  C-2   G5

I wouldn't be surprised if the Genos CFX Concert Grand voice has similar programming. Proving this hypothesis would require careful controlled experimentation and A/B listening.

I'm not saying that Genos is programmed this way. It just shows how a sound designer can shape sonic clay differently within the constraints of an eight element voice.

-- pj

[Bachus]

There are some really good piano's in sf2 format, available for free, anyone converted them to genos voices?

[EB5AGV]

What I do to enjoy a piano sound on my Genos is to use The Grand 3 VST from Steinberg. Of course, this is not what I would prefer, as it means a PC should be hooked and running the VST. As my Genos is not moved from my home location, that is not a big problem. But a for a portable setup, it would be.

Anyway, my question is: as the The Grand 3 VST uses about 80GB of data (for 3 Grands, a Honky-tonk and the CP80), I guess that about 20GB would be just for a Grand (they use 20 velocity layers, no looping and such). If the Genos has just 1.8GB for samples, it is just impossible to fit a similar quality piano sound. So, what could we expect on Genos as a top piano sound?. Once I set the VST on Yamaha C7, when I return to the Genos C7 (which I can do fastly to better compare), using both headphones or my JBL LSR305+LSR310S setup, the difference is abysmal 

Best regards and Happy 2019!

Jose

[Bachus]

What I do to enjoy a piano sound on my Genos is to use The Grand 3 VST from Steinberg. Of course, this is not what I would prefer, as it means a PC should be hooked and running the VST. As my Genos is not moved from my home location, that is not a big problem. But a for a portable setup, it would be.

Anyway, my question is: as the The Grand 3 VST uses about 80GB of data (for 3 Grands, a Honky-tonk and the CP80), I guess that about 20GB would be just for a Grand (they use 20 velocity layers, no looping and such). If the Genos has just 1.8GB for samples, it is just impossible to fit a similar quality piano sound. So, what could we expect on Genos as a top piano sound?. Once I set the VST on Yamaha C7, when I return to the Genos C7 (which I can do fastly to better compare), using both headphones or my JBL LSR305+LSR310S setup, the difference is abysmal 

Best regards and Happy 2019!

Jose

sample size isn't he all and everything..
For example, the nord stage which has some of the best piano's for live playing has no samplesets hat exceed 200MB... same for the Bösendorfer of the Montage/modx, that is about 450MB..

Anything above that does only add very very small nuances in sound..

For a realistic piano sound having a model that supports string and damper ressonance is more important, then plain sample size..

[EB5AGV]

sample size isn't he all and everything..
For example, the nord stage which has some of the best piano's for live playing has no samplesets hat exceed 200MB... same for the Bösendorfer of the Montage/modx, that is about 450MB..

Anything above that does only add very very small nuances in sound..

For a realistic piano sound having a model that supports string and damper ressonance is more important, then plain sample size..

I stand corrected, no problem.

So there is hope we can get a realistic piano sound on Genos, and that is great news! 

All in all, The Grand 3 sounds wonderfully, so it may be a good tool for me to compare with Genos-generated piano sounds.

Regards,

Jose

[BenoitM]

Hi Everyone,

I recently tried to import a Soundfont piano into Yamaha Expansion Manager.

The source I used is https://sites.google.com/site/soundfonts4u/ , in the 'Piano' section and the 'Salamander Grand Yamaha C5' part.
At first, I tried the 'Version B' (6 velocity layers anyway ! ) , in YEM it sounded pretty good, so i did a Package, installed it on my Genos but I was a little bit disappointed: the 'with resonance version' has a very audible 'noise' in the end of the sample, particularly in the C5 range ...

After that, I tried the 'Version A' (15 velocity layers !) , took a long time to import into YEM, and takes +500Mb of sample memory , in the end it is a little bit better, but still has the unpleasant 'breathe' sound at the end of some samples ...

The 'No resonance' version is better, since it doesn't have the unpleasant 'breathe' sound at the end of the samples, but something is till wrong (I should record a small sample to better explain it ...).

The 'Salamander Grand Piano' seems to be the best free samples available on the Internet, so perhaps that YEM is distorting some samples ? (it 'normalize' the samples on import...), and I must admin that I did not tweaked the sound, I just did a quick test of SoundFont2 to Yamaha Package , it is not the best thing to do


Benoit

[SnowThief]

in YEM it sounded pretty good, so i did a Package, installed it on my Genos but I was a little bit disappointed: the 'with resonance version' has a very audible 'noise' in the end of the sample, particularly in the C5 range ...

I have converted The Grandeur from Native Instruments to YEM and I'm extremely happy with the results, but it's disappointing to hear it might not sound as good on the Genos. I can't test myself, because I haven't received mine yet. (I expect to get it today.)

[Bachus]

I have converted The Grandeur from Native Instruments to YEM and I'm extremely happy with the results, but it's disappointing to hear it might not sound as good on the Genos. I can't test myself, because I haven't received mine yet. (I expect to get it today.)

And, you like the Genos?
Did you test the piano?

[SnowThief]

I still haven't tested it (my girlfriend took over my PC, since I haven't used it since I received my Genos), but I hope to do so soon.

[SnowThief]

I finally got my PC back and tested The Grandeur on my Genos last night. I liked the sound very, very much, but found a problem with some samples, which I have now fixed. (Even with the broken samples I still found myself switching over to it and playing it instead of the CFX and really not liking the CFX when I switched back. Before, I didn't have a problem with the CFX and didn't understand what you all meant when you said it sounds thin, but I understand and completely agree now.)

I will fix the samples and do another import this weekend and make some recordings comparing it to the CFX, C7 and the other grand pianos. Two questions:

1. There are two pianos in Legacy called "Grand Piano" and "Grand Piano Live!". What is the difference between them?

2. Anyone got suggestions for MIDIs I can play with each voice to compare?

[Bachus]

I finally got my PC back and tested The Grandeur on my Genos last night. I liked the sound very, very much, but found a problem with some samples, which I have now fixed. (Even with the broken samples I still found myself switching over to it and playing it instead of the CFX and really not liking the CFX when I switched back. Before, I didn't have a problem with the CFX and didn't understand what you all meant when you said it sounds thin, but I understand and completely agree now.)

I will fix the samples and do another import this weekend and make some recordings comparing it to the CFX, C7 and the other grand pianos. Two questions:

1. There are two pianos in Legacy called "Grand Piano" and "Grand Piano Live!". What is the difference between them?

2. Anyone got suggestions for MIDIs I can play with each voice to compare?

I am still looking for a great piano sound..
Are you willing to share your final results?

Using piano's in the expansion memmory, means they have their own 128 voice polyphony..
And offcourse for solo piano, i prefer a darker mellower sound, then the cfx..thats not muddy

[EB5AGV]

I am still looking for a great piano sound..
Are you willing to share your final results?

Using piano's in the expansion memmory, means they have their own 128 voice polyphony..
And offcourse for solo piano, i prefer a darker mellower sound, then the cfx..thats not muddy

I am also in for any better piano sound on the Genos 

Thanks!

Jose

[SnowThief]

Are you willing to share your final results?

Yes, of course, I will make recordings so we can all compare. I just can't distribute the voice (neither for free or paid), because Native Instruments owns the samples and it would be unethical to steal all the hard work they put into creating The Grandeur, plus I'd probably get sued.

You could buy The Grandeur and convert it yourself, but I'd recommend you wait until I have tested and made some recordings, so we're sure there are no problems before you spend any money. Of course, you can convert any other VST too, it doesn't have to be one from Native Instruments. (I hear there are even some good free grand piano VSTs.)

[Bachus]

Yes, of course, I will make recordings so we can all compare. I just can't distribute the voice (neither for free or paid), because Native Instruments owns the samples and it would be unethical to steal all the hard work they put into creating The Grandeur, plus I'd probably get sued.

You could buy The Grandeur and convert it yourself, but I'd recommend you wait until I have tested and made some recordings, so we're sure there are no problems before you spend any money. Of course, you can convert any other VST too, it doesn't have to be one from Native Instruments. (I hear there are even some good free grand piano VSTs.)

Thats to be twisted if you are not allowed to sample something and distribute it?
If so, Roland would not be allowed to distibute Steinway samples..
And yamaha could not host B3 and Rhodes samples..

But if thats your opinion, i will offcourse honor it, as i do understand it.


So that brings me back to the basic question..


Where can i find good steinway and Bosendorfer sample set for the Genos...

[SnowThief]

Thats to be twisted if you are not allowed to sample something and distribute it?
If so, Roland would not be allowed to distibute Steinway samples..
And yamaha could not host B3 and Rhodes samples..

"It is only strictly prohibited to use single, combined or modified sounds from Native Instruments to create sample CDs, loop libraries, sound libraries or similar products, as the license granted is strictly limited to one person only - any trading, lending, renting, reissuing, re-distribution or re-sale of sounds is not permitted under any circumstances."

https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/210264205-Can-I-Use-Native-Instruments-Sounds-for-Commercial-Music-Production-

This would basically be me going: "Oh, you don't have to The Grandeur from NI! I can just take all their samples and create my own VST and give to you for free! Or I can create a voice for Genos with all their samples!"

Distributing a song I made with their VST is fine. Distributing every single note sampled at multiple velocities is not.

[Bachus]

"It is only strictly prohibited to use single, combined or modified sounds from Native Instruments to create sample CDs, loop libraries, sound libraries or similar products, as the license granted is strictly limited to one person only - any trading, lending, renting, reissuing, re-distribution or re-sale of sounds is not permitted under any circumstances."

https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/210264205-Can-I-Use-Native-Instruments-Sounds-for-Commercial-Music-Production-

This would basically be me going: "Oh, you don't have to The Grandeur from NI! I can just take all their samples and create my own VST and give to you for free! Or I can create a voice for Genos with all their samples!"

Distributing a song I made with their VST is fine. Distributing every single note sampled at multiple velocities is not.

Well, basically that is what NI did with a Steinway..

If you come to us, you dont need to buy a steinway grand..
We will sample it and sell you the samples.. and you can play it in our engine..

Doesnt it sound a little hypocrit to forbid to others what you did yourself..
Because in the end its a steinway sound and not an NI sound...

But as said, i respect your opinion and understand that you will not send anyone your samples...

[SnowThief]

Ah, yes, I get what you're saying now: "They bought an instrument, recorded it and used their recorded samples to create an instrument, which they then sold. I have bought their instrument, so why shouldn't I be allowed to record it and use my recorded samples to create an instrument, which I will then sell?"

Edit: Here's a discussion of the topic: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/1004513-what-content-other-instruments-can-you-legally-sample-sell.html

Anyway, I'm not going to risk it, because I don't want to get sued. Also, I think NI did a very good job with The Grandeur and deserve to get paid for it, so I don't want to basically tell people that they shouldn't buy it, because they can just use my copy of The Grandeur instead. If someone wants The Grandeur (or any other VST) on their Genos, then I think they should buy that VST.

[willem7397]

SnowThief, interesting topic. I'm curious how you did get the Grandeur samples into the Genos. I assume you have to use YEM for it?
I can imagine you don't want to share the samples but sharing the procedure how to convert it is hopefully possible?
If you have tested everything and it works one can decide to buy this or any other sampled VST. The Grandeur is not very expensive and in this case you don't need Kontakt to use it.
I agree with the general opinion here  that most VST's (sampled or modelled like Pianoteq) sound better than the Genos CFX.

Funny thing is I also have a Kawai ES8 which is a 88 key stage piano with very nice sounds and I prefer it above the Genos piano sounds. However when I run a midi recorded on the ES8 in the GEnos and make a wav recording the Genos CFX sounds also very good, maybe even better then recorded as audio file from the Kawai ES8.