Capture styles via audio

[boowho]

I would like to grab some styles from and old PSR500 to load them into my PSR910.

Unfortunately, the PSR500 does not output style data to the MIDI port.

Has anybody tried to capture the styles as they are played out from the speakers.  This would require
a "special" program to "listen", I'd suspect.

Anyone know of such a program??

It irritates me that Yamaha doesn't make ALL styles from ALL instruments available for download (even if they charge for them, I'd gladly pay a reasonable price.

Thanks

[Gunnar Jonny]

If the PSR550 is close, it's a downloadable file with all styles here: http://www.psrtutorial.com/sty/yamaha/psr-550.html

Text 'PSR550 Styles' above the style-table leads to the zipped file.

[2112]

You must have changed something in the FUNCTION settings and forgot about it. The accompaniment definitely can be recorded from the MIDI output.

I opened the manual and it clearly states all the default settings:

Off Nothing is transmitted.
R1Right-hand keyboard playing* (VOICE R1)**
R2 Right-hand keyboard playing* (VOICE R2)**
L Left-hand keyboard playing* (VOICE L)**
Upper Right-hand keyboard playing*
(Outputs MIDI note data normally as explained on page 29.)
Lower Left-hand keyboard playing* with Auto Accompaniment ON
(Outputs MIDI note data normally as explained on page 29.)
RhM Auto Accompaniment RHYTHM MAIN track
RhS Auto Accompaniment RHYTHM SUB track
Bas Auto Accompaniment BASS track
Cd1 Auto Accompaniment CHORD1 track
Cd2 Auto Accompaniment CHORD2 track
Pad Auto Accompaniment PAD track
Ph1 Auto Accompaniment PHRASE1 track
Ph2 Auto Accompaniment PHRASE2 track

• The initial default channel track settings are:
• Ch. 1 = R1
• Ch. 2  = R2
• Ch. 3  = L
• Ch. 4  = Off
• Ch. 5  = Off
• Ch. 6  = Off
• Ch. 7  = Off
• Ch. 8  = Off
• Ch. 9  = RhS
• Ch. 10  = RhM
• Ch. 11  = Bas
• Ch. 12  = Cd1
• Ch. 13  = Cd2
• Ch. 14  = Pad
• Ch. 15  = Ph1
• Ch. 16  = Ph2

If your PSR-500 is dying and unplayable then your best bet is get the main electronic board to somebody with basic electronics knowledge. The styles are stored in the Flash ROM chips that are easily readable and not encrypted. They are essentially MIDI files with some additional notation chunks; documentation in available on the net, just not from Yamaha.

Edit: Fixed the formatting.

[boowho]

Thanks for the responses.  First, my unit is clearly a 500;  NOT a 550.   Unfortunately there are PROBABLY differences in the styles.  Yamaha is good about doing that......

However, I will check the link you provided.  I find it interesting that MY PSR500 manual specifically states that style data is NOT output at the MIDI ports; just the opposite of what you say.

But thanks anyhow.

Boowho??

Oops!!  I missed the part of your message about the ROM'S NOT being encrypted.  A number of years ago I bought the schematics for the 500, un-soldered the style chip and read out the contents. They may not have been encrypted, but CERTAINLY compressed using an algorithm unknown to me.   I discovered this by trying to compress the ROM contents with a ZIP file creator and then output data was only a couple of bytes smaller;  a sure sign that the ROM contents were already compressed.

It almost makes me wonder if we are talking about the same keyboard   Mine is a PSR500  (about 25-30 years ago vintage)

[2112]

First, my unit is clearly a 500;  NOT a 550.

Yeah, sorry for misinformation. I had so many Yamaha manuals opened that I got myself mixed up. The 500 manual is a scanned image, the one I read mush have been for 550. Please accept my apologies.

[DrakeM]

Also all the previous Yamaha styles that are not listed as your PSR-S910 "322" preset styles are buried in your keyboard. Check your Legacy and GM folders for them you really have hundreds more there. 

SO, yes, Yamaha has given you these S500 styles.  

[boowho]

Also all the previous Yamaha styles that are not listed as your PSR-S910 "322" preset styles are buried in your keyboard. Check your Legacy and GM folders for them you really have hundreds more there. 

SO, yes, Yamaha has given you these S500 styles.

So what you are saying is that there are a LOT more styles encoded within the PSR S910 than what are "selectable" from the standard style buttons??

That would be incredible!!

[overover]

Hi boowho,

I think, Drake was talking about VOICES here, NOT Styles.

In the Legacy and GM&XG Voice folders there are many good Preset Voices (in additon to the Panel Voices), but for Preset STYLES there are only the well-known Style Category folders (and, unfortunately, nothing else).


Best regards,
Chris

[boowho]

Hi boowho,

I think, Drake was talking about VOICES here, NOT Styles.

In the Legacy and GM&XG Voice folders there are many good Preset Voices (in additon to the Panel Voices), but for Preset STYLES there are only the well-known Style Category folders (and, unfortunately, nothing else).


Best regards,
Chris

I'm not surprised!!!  Fortunately, I'm only interested in a handful of styles in the PSR500.  I'm going to try and record them into .MP3 files and then
try an MP3 to MIDI converter.   Then "clean them up" (MAJOR editing) manually and see if they sound even close to the original style

[boowho]

Also this from the Yamaha website:

There are no functional differences between the PSR85 and the PSR500, only the model number and some minor cosmetics.

NOTE: The PSR85 was a re-release of the PSR500.

I no longer have access to a PSR500; however my son just happens to have an 85;

[Ed B]

Hi
Don't waste your time on audio to midi conversion it just does not work. I am sure you can find equivalent styles in a later keyboard. Just look for similar names.
Regards
Ed B

[Jørgen]

Hi
Don't waste your time on audio to midi conversion it just does not work. I am sure you can find equivalent styles in a later keyboard. Just look for similar names.
Regards
Ed B

Right, Ed.... mp3 / audio to MIDI is waste of time... 
The process is similar to converting a bread back to the ingredients... flour, salt, etc.
Regards
Jørgen

[DrakeM]

Oh my, I went brain dead on my reply for sure on this one. 
So sorry.

But have you checked for the styles you want at the PRS 2000 style page here:

http://www.psrtutorial.com/sty/yamaha/psr-2000.html

To download the styles you simply need to CLICK on the words BALLAD, BALLROOM, DANCE, LATIN, ect that you see down the page.

[boowho]

  Thanks for all the info/help/suggestions/etc

I've been searching for certain styles from that particular instrument for YEARS and have never seen them anywhere in any style collection, etc.

The particular styles are (among others) boogie woogie, ragtime  and one of the big-bands

Boowho??

[2112]

Right, Ed.... mp3 / audio to MIDI is waste of time... 
The process is similar to converting a bread back to the ingredients... flour, salt, etc.

With Yamaha styles the analogy isn't really appropriate.

PSR-500 is different that the later models, but conceptually this may be possible, depending on finding an alternative way of selectively muting the tracks.

The Yamaha accompaniments are 8 separate MIDI tracks, each consisting of a rather well-defined instrument. Additionally, the CHORD, BASS tracks will play only subsets or transpositions of Cmaj7 chords. So the audio produced by the PSR may be actually parsable by some computer program.

I have a PSR-E363 and as someone restarting my music education after a long break, I find most Yamaha accompaniments too complex sonically to properly understand the harmonies applied. Unlike higher models, like the PSR-E463, my box doesn't officially support muting or mixing tracks. But I've found that the tone generator actually does respond to the MIDI control messages allowing me to selectively quieten the various parts of the octet that plays the accompaniment.

Somewhat similar approach may work with the PSR-500 and the computer sound analysis.

Edit: spelling and grammar fixes.

[pjd]

Additionally, the CHORD, BASS tracks will play only subsets or transpositions of Cmaj7 chords.

Thanks for your post. Just a small modification here. The NTR/NTT (CASM) allows other Chord Root notes and Chord Types. CMaj7 is the default. If the CASM info is set correctly, the associated MIDI notes in the Style Part may have a different root note and chord type. Yamaha factory styles, for example, sometimes have guitar parts taken from "E7" chords. Older instruments may have limitations, so it's always good to check the manual.

All the best -- pj

[2112]

The NTR/NTT (CASM) allows other Chord Root notes and Chord Types. CMaj7 is the default.

That would be true for the newer instruments that store styles as MIDI files with certain additional chunks.

PSR-500 is an older instrument that quite possibly predates that technology. I even contributed to spreading misinformation by referring to the newer PSR-550.

From reading the manual this instrument predates the use of the flash storage. It apparently has ROMs or EPROMs and stores all settings and configurations in a RAM backed by capacitors and batteries. The manual refers to the possibility of the instrument forgetting its settings when the power is removed and batteries get depleted.

Given the amount of technical differences it is quite possible that this one did not use the same style format internally as it is used for the external storage of the store files.

But the general gist of your message is valid: CMaj7 is our best guess as to the source/initial/fundamental chord used in the accompaniment tracks. It may be as well some other chord, but knowing the limitations of the technology it won't be anything more complex.

What I was trying to point is that with selective track muting the score to the accompaniment styles could be quite probably recovered. Either by some automated software or by somebody with trained musical ear and something like Ableton with slow-down-but-preserve-pitch functionality.

The problem isn't as hard as general purpose music recognition from the mono/stereo 1/2-track mix.