Bosendorfer Imperial Grand Library for Genos

[PdeMats]

Hi all to Genos owners,
Recently, and after the release of the MODX series, I found out that, even these mid-priced keybords from Yamaha, have free access to the Bosendorfer Piano Library like the Montage flagship has too; but there's no such Library in the Genos format :-( I think that we all Genos owners paid a lot for a premium keyboard, so we should have these librarys available, if not for free, as a paid version.
Since I am not that much satisfied with the CFX Piano on Genos (it lacks sustain, resonance, body, the decay of the notes is too short, etc...) I started thinking of this alternative, as the demos on the Montage sound really amazing, and from what I see at Yamahasynth.com, the Library is around 400Mb, so... why Yamaha does not release a Genos version of this amazing Bosendorfer Piano Library?
Anyone would like to have it in his Genos, or it's just me?
Greetings

[Bachus]

Hi all to Genos owners,
Recently, and after the release of the MODX series, I found out that, even these mid-priced keybords from Yamaha, have free access to the Bosendorfer Piano Library like the Montage flagship has too; but there's no such Library in the Genos format :-( I think that we all Genos owners paid a lot for a premium keyboard, so we should have these librarys available, if not for free, as a paid version.
Since I am not that much satisfied with the CFX Piano on Genos (it lacks sustain, resonance, body, the decay of the notes is too short, etc...) I started thinking of this alternative, as the demos on the Montage sound really amazing, and from what I see at Yamahasynth.com, the Library is around 400Mb, so... why Yamaha does not release a Genos version of this amazing Bosendorfer Piano Library?
Anyone would like to have it in his Genos, or it's just me?
Greetings

There is so many things those mid range keyboards have thats still missing on the Genos...

That is intentional ...  its `yamahas` way of marketin all their keyboards and trying tomsell multiple keyboards to people...   its not just yamaha... same goes for Korg and even more for Roland...

[mikf]

They do make the Bosendorfer available on the CVP range, and it is a nice overall tone, little more mellow than typical Yamaha pianos. This is a matter of individual taste, neither is better or worse than the other, but the choice is nice. But sustain and decay are not better on the Bosendorfer sample than the CFX. I find that this is a typical problem on most electronic pianos, even the best never seem to be nearly as good as real pianos in this regard.
My uniformed guess it is because sample size needs to be so big to cover lengthy sustain and long decay, and it might also introduce polyphony issues. 
Mike

[soryt]

If you see that they can make a midrange synth (MODX) with the Genos touch screen with all that possibilities ( audio interface , I-Pad editor. Pc Editor) and for a low price of 1400 €
i get a feeling to be "riped off" by Yamaha  , they make the most money with the Arranger keyboards and give these customers less.

Soryt 

[vbdx66]

If you see that they can make a midrange synth (MODX) with the Genos touch screen with all that possibilities ( audio interface , I-Pad editor. Pc Editor) and for a low price of 1400 €
i get a feeling to be "riped off" by Yamaha  , they make the most money with the Arranger keyboards and give these customers less.

Soryt 

Well, don't forget that the Montage came before the MODX (and before Genos) and it was in the same price range as the Genos, so we might hope that next year or in two years the PSR S rangeod keybaords will be replaced by a completely new li e of MOTL arrangers width touchscreen and many new features coming form the Genos or the MODX.

Regards,

Vinciane

[Lee Batchelor]

Well, don't forget that the Montage came before the MODX (and before Genos) and it was in the same price range as the Genos...

Not true in Canada at least, Vinciane. Genos has always been about $1,000 more, without the speakers - and that's comparing the Genos to the 88 key Montage.

I think that the whole concept of what we get on our keyboards is 100 percent driven by the marketing folks. The engineers could easily give us Montage and CP4 quality pianos on our Genos. The idea of memory being an issue is very weak. In this day and age, memory is very cheap and readily available. It seems Yamaha still sells the Genos as a "stay at home and play in the living room toy." It is not!! It's a full professional level keyboard that can be enjoyed at home or the big stage. The famous pros don't use them because they often prefer the weighted keys and they don't need the rhythms and accompaniment instruments. I'm quite happy with the Genos pianos. If they had not been a major improvement from the Tyros pianos, my music store would have got their Genos back. Perhaps the pianos are weak for solo work but when mixed with the rhythms, they sound fine IMHO.

[mikf]

But there are also many things on the Genos that are not on the Montage - all the styles and accompaniment for a start. Presumably that is why you bought it and not the Montage. There are always trade offs. 
Mike

[vbdx66]

There is also another point to consider: with the Bösendorfer library and the CFX samples (plus the other onboard pianos), the 76 keys MODX will be a kind of sweet spot for piano players who will be looking for an affordable, light, portable and flexible stage instrument. It could for instance very well serve as a back-up piano at the side of a Nord Stage.

Remains to be tested what the quality of the keybed will be.

Vinciane

[Wouter1972]

You can always look around for VST's. Plenty of high end piano sounds to choose from.

Gr.
Wouter

[Bachus]

Well, don't forget that the Montage came before the MODX (and before Genos) and it was in the same price range as the Genos, so we might hope that next year or in two years the PSR S rangeod keybaords will be replaced by a completely new li e of MOTL arrangers width touchscreen and many new features coming form the Genos or the MODX.

Regards,

Vinciane

Monage 76 was €3500 at release
Genos 76 was €4600 at release

How is that the same price?

On top of that Montage got comtinues updates with new features and comtent, whic we sill have to see for the Genos..

There is a world of difference between the yamaha synth division and he arraner divison..
Yamaha synth division even openly talks to yamaha customrs on the yamaha synth website


Why is the Yamaha arranger division still living in the 20th century?

[Lee Batchelor]

Agreed, Bachus. Despite Yamaha's wonderful customer service, they still tend to look at the Genos (and Tyros) as a living room keyboard and the synths as "strictly for the pros." With a proper DAW, the Genos could easily be on a similar level as the Montage and be most suitable for the pro studio. I've played in pro bands where my fellow players are awed by the sounds.

Members of this forum have spotted numerous short-comings and even some bugs that still need attention. Why isn't anything being done?? Further, why doesn't Yamaha pay attention to this forum?? If they are, they're doing a crappy job of it. The reason the Genos is so successful is because of everyone here who bought one.

Wake up Yamaha!!!!!!!

[mikf]

I think its OK for members to point out things they would like changed, and I am sure Yamaha listens to customer feedback, but in the end they will of course be driven by their own evaluation of what is right for them. What is good for buyers and what is right for Yamaha are not necessarily the same thing. Nor is the strategy for one part of the market necessarily right for a different segment of the market. The Montage and Genos markets are not the same, even if there is some overlap. 
And everything has to be kept in perspective, this forum represents a very small percentage of the total Genos bought. 
Mike

[PdeMats]

Well, I am only asking Yamaha for a beautiful sound, that they already sampled, and have available to the Montage and MODX users and I wish that sound would be available to the Genos users too, it's not a 7 or 8 Gb Library... it is 400Mb.. and, despite I think we all deserve that sound for free, because I paid so much for the Genos (4100€), I did not asked so, I don't mind to pay for it, as long it's available in the Genos format... until now it isn't.. I wish some members here give some 'force' to my appealling, in this forum, talking about this library for Genos in other Genos forums, etc... but I start to feel that it's not on top of other Genos owners priorities... wish it was, like the ChickCorea Mark V Library also free for the Montage and MODX., don't we deserve to have access to that amazing sounds?
Spread the word, Genos owners, help us get more amazing quality sounds for our so expensive Digital Workstation!!!
Greetings

[Lee Batchelor]

I used to play a Nord Electro 5D. All piano voices in the entire Nord library were available to all Nord keyboard owners free of charge. The only thing standing in the way of Yamaha not doing that is the thirst for profit. If that's true, then sell us the advanced voices!!

They could offer us advanced level pianos, but like I said earlier, they paint all Genos owners with the same brush - stay at home and play in the living room or den. Those players probably make up the vast majority of Genos purchasers. Yamaha doesn't think they would want advanced level piano voices???

Yamaha must stop treating the Genos like a $6,000 Tinker Toy. If they have such a low opinion of Genos players, sell us the keyboard for $1,500. Then we can afford a Montage too !

[mikf]

Lee
I am sure that Yamaha do not regard the Genos as a tinker toy, and know full well that it is used by many pro players. But producing a piano sample for sale on Genos would not be a 'no cost ' thing for Yamaha. It takes effort and organization to produce, check, distribute and sell (or even give away) any product, even one where the main development elements are already available. If there was no effort then they wouldn't need to do anything because you could just buy and use the Montage libraries. But you cant, because some changes need to be made to be fully compatible with the Genos. I suspect they considered all these things and decided that in the case of Genos, its obviously not a market necessity to make it available free, and if they sell it they are not likely to make much, maybe not even cover costs. 
In all corporations, there is always huge competition for resources and giving customers what they want may be desirable if you are a customer, but doesn't always make good business sense for the corporation.
Mike

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi

Yamaha could have made and sold a compatible Daw for the Genos  and a load more sounds and they would sell.
Even a tweak patch book like they did for the DX7.
Yem could be so much better than It Is .
There are a lot of things inside the Genos that a lot of people do not know and would benefit with  more Indepth book.
Everything you see on You Tube is just basics, How to load a song etc
No one at Yamaha has explained how to make the Genos 100% compatible with Cubase. Yes that Is a £400 program and we deserve better treatment.
We have a patch list to load ,but that Is not fantastic.
I think Lee is on the button by saying that most of us now are advancing from home keyboard to something a little better, but want the Styles.
The Genos Is very capable and deserves more coverage.
I reckon It Is a case of them and us!!!
What about a $6000 TONKA TOY!!! " Big tuff toys for big tough boys"!!!   "TONKA"!! da de da da da!!!!


only my opinion


All the best
John

[keynote]

Also another thing to consider is that Yamaha is in direct competition with Korg in particular and to a lesser degree with Roland and Ketron. So how are the pianos on the Pa4x and/or SD9? Nothing mind blowing in my opinion. I think the Genos CFX and CFX Studio grand pianos are comparable and to be quite honest of better quality than the grand piano(s) on the current crop of high-end arrangers currently on the market. The Pa4x is the Genos' main competition at the moment and therefore why would Yamaha take the time and effort to develop and new sampled piano for the Genos when every other high-end arranger on the market has pianos basically on par or of a lesser quality to the pianos on the Genos?

Now if Korg and/or Ketron (by the way, Roland hasn't released a high-end arranger in years) but if Korg and Ketron came out with a superior sounding grand piano for the Pa4x and/or the Ketron SD9 then Yamaha would likely be more receptive to developing a superior sounding piano for the Genos too I would think. Plus, as we know, the Yamaha acoustic CFX grand piano - that the Genos CFX piano(s) were sampled from according to Yamaha - is Yamaha's premier acoustic piano and so Yamaha probably thinks if they make a separate and improved sounding grand piano for the Genos it would kind of look awkward because their acclaimed acoustic CFX grand piano is currently one of the best sounding acoustic pianos on the planet.

Now looking to the future there could possibly be improved grand piano(s) on the Genos 2.  If there are then more people will be inclined to purchase and/or upgrade to the Genos 2 when it hits the market in 2021 or 2022 or perhaps sooner in my opinion. Yamaha is always thinking about profits vs. customer satisfaction with profits winning out in the majority of cases in my opinion. In the meantime there are ways to improve the Genos CFX grand piano sound using EQ adjustments and other methods. As previously mentioned you can also use VSTi's such as Synthology's Ivory II or Spectrasonics Keyscape, etc. Today's laptop and desktop computers are powerful enough so it is actually possible to use VSTi's in a live setting although they can be somewhat tedious and time consuming to setup for live use. It will be interesting to see what the Genos 2 has to offer. It will have to offer a whole lot more for me to upgrade my Genos to the Genos 2. But if the Genos 2 has truly superior sounding grand pianos, comparable with Ivory II and/or Keyscape, etc., that would definitely be a positive incentive to upgrade to the Genos 2. For now the CFX grand pianos on the current Genos are passable in most venue situations. If you're playing professionally with the Genos before hundreds or thousands of people then a second tiered keyboard could be used for the piano sounds instead of the Genos pianos. And of course VSTi's can be used if you don't have a second keyboard such as a Nord Stage, etc.

In conclusion, if Yamaha made a grand piano expansion pack I would definitely purchase it if it sounded better than what is already on the Genos. But I don't think Yamaha will make one for the reasons I mentioned above.

Mike

[Chris79]

Hi,
being a professional musician, I can confirm that the Phantawalker Kawai (https://sellfy.com/p/FBHI/) is excellent on Genos. For $ 25 you have a great piano that sounds a lot better than the Genos CFX or C7. 
regards. Chris.

[Wouter1972]

Yeah right! In what universe is a Kawai piano sound of 25 dollars better than the one in Genos?

[mikf]

Very amateurish demo, plays Chopin like a 12 year old, makes me doubt the authenticity.
Mike

[pjd]

Been reading a lot of MODX/Montage stuff lately...

The Montage and MODX have several CFX Performances with different programming, different playing characteristics and different sound.

When people speak of the high quality Montage CFX, they usually mean the "CFX Concert" Performance. It consists of 18 voice elements across 4 parts. A Montage "part" is what we usually consider a "voice" in arranger-land. So, the "CFX Concert" applies considerable tone generation resources to its sound.

The Montage also has single part CFX Performances (i.e., up to eight voice elements max). One such Performance is "CFX PopStudioGrand." I suspect that the Genos main CFX is roughly the same as the Montage single part CFX.

One Montage reviewer noted that the "CFX Concert" is most useful for exposed piano solos. The additional parts add detail for soft and medium strikes. The reviewer thought it would be a waste to use the four part "CFX Concert" when playing music that doesn't require soft/medium strikes, i.e., MIDI velocity 100 or greater, AKA Jerry Lee Lewis or Little Richard. 

A few Forum members are planning to buy MODX, so some kind of A/B comparison is likely in the future. I don't think there are many Forum people with both Montage and Genos. 

I'm not sure a multi-part piano (or multi-part anything for that matter) could be easily retrofit into the PSR/Tyros/Genos architecture. Yamaha would really need to get significant additional sales in order to be motivated to add the equivalent of multi-part piano to Genos. Just sayin'.

All the best -- pj

[Chris79]

Very amateurish demo, plays Chopin like a 12 year old, makes me doubt the authenticity.
Mike

it is not the way of playing that makes the quality of a sound. 

[Wouter1972]

Trying to promote unofficial third party bang for a buck packs is one thing. Everyone tries to make a living I guess. But stop making laughable false claims like these. For a so called professional it sounds very amateur like.

[Bachus]

Never mind

[Toplayer2]

I agree completely with those who are disappointed with the piano samples in the Genos. Such an expensive product should not be so compromized with what many consider to be the most important voice in the instrument.  I have had the Genos sitting above a CP4 and can attest that the latter has a vastly superior CFX. No amount of EQ tweeking in Genos comes close to the quality in the CP4.  I personally like the CF grand in the CP4 even more.

I just had the very good fortune to acquire a mint Young Chang 6' acoustic grand at a very reasonable price.  I must say that there ain't nothin' like the real thing, baby!  See photo:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=17FUaRkEgcFH4vcxmn38aA7jNBDqEyvGB

For others who mount their Genos on an acoustic grand, A great alternative to the $299 Genos speakers is a Sony HT-NT5 sound bar, normally $799, now available through Best Buy for $309!

The condenser mic input on Genos allows the acoustic to be recorded and add nice reverb for live playing.

By the way, my CP4 is for sale.

Joe

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Bachus, thanks  for pointing out:

"There is so many things those mid range (YAMAHA) keyboards have thats still missing on the Genos... That is intentional ... same goes for Korg and even more for Roland..."

Having followed your posts I tend to believe you are right  although admittedly I have no experience with others than TYROS and GENOS.

And thanks to all the other posters  in this thread as well.

I for one am content with the sounds the Genos provides so  I do not miss the Bosendorfer Imperial Grand Library for Genos and in this specific matter I do believe I represent the majority of the customers YAMAHA is targeting. 

But what makes me even more content is it seems this site is switching from IMHO less interesting  post-exchanges:  "I love my Genos  - I am glad to hear you love your Genos"  to very interesting topics  thus serving its declared purpose:

" This forum is ...intended for owners (or potential owners) of .... (YAMAHA) keyboards and .....helping owners understand how their keyboards work and how to get the most out of their Yamaha keyboards."

So statements like  "There is so many things those mid range (YAMAHA) keyboards have thats still missing on the Genos" is not being negative. It helps potential owners choose the YAMAHA model that best suits their needs.   

Cheers

Kaarlo     

[Bachus]

Also another thing to consider is that Yamaha is in direct competition with Korg in particular and to a lesser degree with Roland and Ketron. So how are the pianos on the Pa4x and/or SD9? Nothing mind blowing in my opinion. I think the Genos CFX and CFX Studio grand pianos are comparable and to be quite honest of better quality than the grand piano(s) on the current crop of high-end arrangers currently on the market. The Pa4x is the Genos' main competition at the moment and therefore why would Yamaha take the time and effort to develop and new sampled piano for the Genos when every other high-end arranger on the market has pianos basically on par or of a lesser quality to the pianos on the Genos?

Now if Korg and/or Ketron (by the way, Roland hasn't released a high-end arranger in years) but if Korg and Ketron came out with a superior sounding grand piano for the Pa4x and/or the Ketron SD9 then Yamaha would likely be more receptive to developing a superior sounding piano for the Genos too I would think. Plus, as we know, the Yamaha acoustic CFX grand piano - that the Genos CFX piano(s) were sampled from according to Yamaha - is Yamaha's premier acoustic piano and so Yamaha probably thinks if they make a separate and improved sounding grand piano for the Genos it would kind of look awkward because their acclaimed acoustic CFX grand piano is currently one of the best sounding acoustic pianos on the planet.

Now looking to the future there could possibly be improved grand piano(s) on the Genos 2.  If there are then more people will be inclined to purchase and/or upgrade to the Genos 2 when it hits the market in 2021 or 2022 or perhaps sooner in my opinion. Yamaha is always thinking about profits vs. customer satisfaction with profits winning out in the majority of cases in my opinion. In the meantime there are ways to improve the Genos CFX grand piano sound using EQ adjustments and other methods. As previously mentioned you can also use VSTi's such as Synthology's Ivory II or Spectrasonics Keyscape, etc. Today's laptop and desktop computers are powerful enough so it is actually possible to use VSTi's in a live setting although they can be somewhat tedious and time consuming to setup for live use. It will be interesting to see what the Genos 2 has to offer. It will have to offer a whole lot more for me to upgrade my Genos to the Genos 2. But if the Genos 2 has truly superior sounding grand pianos, comparable with Ivory II and/or Keyscape, etc., that would definitely be a positive incentive to upgrade to the Genos 2. For now the CFX grand pianos on the current Genos are passable in most venue situations. If you're playing professionally with the Genos before hundreds or thousands of people then a second tiered keyboard could be used for the piano sounds instead of the Genos pianos. And of course VSTi's can be used if you don't have a second keyboard such as a Nord Stage, etc.

In conclusion, if Yamaha made a grand piano expansion pack I would definitely purchase it if it sounded better than what is already on the Genos. But I don't think Yamaha will make one for the reasons I mentioned above.

Mike

Actually the korg piano's are top knotch..

The standard granp piano comes froma steinway and is derived from the Kronos..
And then there is an italian grand(fazioli) which comes close to the nord italian grand thats so popular with many nord stage users..
Korg pa4x piano's come with string and damper resonance for a more natural sound..
The difference between the sound engines of yamaha is that in the awm2 engine there are 8 stereo ellements.. and on the korg pa4x there are 28 mono oscilators... giving Korg some more room to play with... to overcome this, the grand paino on the montage excists of 4 parts(part is up to 8 elements) which gives converted to korg numbers up to 64 oscilators(altough not all of them are used) but in the end its a 16 layer piano(genos is with extra tracks for string resonance, damper resonance, key off samples and mechanical noice...

This is one of those things where i think yamaha fails in not following the real high end technollogy with their most expensive arranger..

Where it comes to typical keyboard sounds, piano, ep, strings, organ, pads, synths.. pa4x is atleast on par with the Genos and with some even better

Where yamaha shines in my opinion is still the acoustic sounds like brass, violins, saxes..

What pushes the Genos above the pa4x soundwise is its huge DSP power for effects.. while it goes unnoticed to some, the dsp power and quallity of Yamaha really is huge...

[mikf]

The CFX is a world class piano, but the Bosendorfer would probably be considered Yamaha's premier acoustic piano, it's certainly quite a bit more expensive.
Mike

[fabpianista]

I can totally relate to that. We know Yamaha doesn't want to throw everything in one single product... but for their most expensive keyboard I would expect a better CFX (more embodied) and a less-bright piano as an alternative (obviously, Bösendorfer).

And last but not least, why no audio-over-USB, dear Yamaha? 

[khudson7]

Yeah right! In what universe is a Kawai piano sound of 25 dollars better than the one in Genos?

I bought these 3 piano add-on sounds(for only $25).  Are they better?  No, just different.  I personally do like the Kawai most of the three, perhaps I would say it is even better than the cfx we have on the Genos(but that of course is my personal opinion). 

Like others, I am disappointed in the cfx piano sound on the Genos. So far, this is the only alternative that I have found and in certain situations, I do use the Kawai sound and find it more satisfactory at times, than the Genos cfx. I can not say though, I find them to be exactly like the real thing.  But perhaps,  just a bit closer.