nearly out of turmoil now

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi

I have just recorded a tune with an edm beat  and sounds ok on my speakers.
I think it is going great until I put the song on my Marantz stereo  and it is so boomy.
I have put my eq on flat and used normal on my compression. Just turned up the compression output volume up a bit.
I do not know where to start now as i have had good sounds out of my Genos but using the electric house beat puts the kick drum way too hefty. I take the kick drum down a peg and then sounds tinny.
I will keep trying , but I seem to be going backwards with my sound.
What settings to record and get great quality do some of you use as I am getting frustrated.
I have redone Oxygene 8, three  times now and all sounds boomy or Thuddy on my stereo.
Any expert help appreciated.

All the Best
John

[EileenL]

Hi John
  I never do an audio recording with compression turned on. Never sounds as it should at the end.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Eileen
Thanks for that tip as I will have a go tomorrow with that off.
The Genos Is a lot harder to get right than the Tyros,but I do know that the Genos is all there.
I have been struggling with modern beats and I find the kick drums way oversize.
At the moment I am trying all ways to get a happy medium.
I listen to the demos and they are way lower recording than you can get on the Genos.
I try a commercial audio and compare,but can never get close to that all round warmth without vibrating the speakers with mud and thump.
I will suceed In the end, but I have had a couple of days headache with this.


All the Best]
John

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Eileen
Maybe getting somewhere again.
Not holding my breath just yet.
Can a recording come out pristine from the Genos or does it have to be worked In a daw such as Cubase to get the best out of a recording to get a pro type recording.
It Is all hit an d miss with me at the moment


all the best
John

[Tommy 73]

I feel your frustration john...so for the fear of repeating my self (!)... explorer this https://youtu.be/i8lcbC7DKNY there will be many reasons why you are struggling with your recording journey and i think to say that your expectation is probably to high incomparison to a commercial
Pro recording... this can be reasoned once the facts can be established when considering your process, that would include..."environment"..."hardware"..."process" and "knowledge" and this software as I found out for myself (which is not that expansive in comparison to all the components that go into a commercial recording) can remedy many things that I mention above which could be hindering your process and results... I would research and study this software john and give it some consideration....hope this helps  P.s. very easy to setup and use.

[EileenL]

Hi John,
  I suppose it all depends on what we want to get from our keyboards. I find the styles in Genos are much better balanced base wise and kick drums do not knock your head off as in Tyros.
   When I record to audio I use Genos EQ settings and no compressor and find I hear what I heard when playing the piece. I don't use anything other than the keyboard.
   I bought my keyboard just to sit and play and have a relaxing life and did not want to send hours setting things up as I had done in the past. For me this took a lot of the joy away from just playing and enjoying  what I was doing. That is why I like Genos so much. The sound for me is just great and I can just go over and sit and play it and I am happy.
   Good luck with finding what you are looking for and enjoying your journey.

[Tommy 73]

Keep going john it's a creative process to "Enjoy" don't be deterred or beat your self up too much and when everything falls into place it will be very satisfying...perhapps a home recording course or a copy of Paul white book "The Producer's Manual " from Sound on Sound magazine may help with some bed time reading...

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[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

HI Tommy
It Is not the playing ,It is the flaming mixing that makes me want to jump off a cliff sometimes!!
I will have a good read and purchase that book.

To get this absolutely right,do you get a better rcording Flat Eq and no compression???
Just have to get the sound right  which Is not so bad.
With eq and compression on, my stereo marantz system was booming and resonating and sounded muddy and thuddy with the lead instruments buried Inside.
I tried with flat Eq and no compression and It sounded better on my stereo this time, and Is getting closer.
The funny thing Is that I got quicker and better results from My Tyros 5 when i had It.
On the Genos everything sounded tinny and toppy,ok on stereo.
Well I am thinking that you must have a no eq and compression for recording the best from the Genos and use eq and compression settings for pleasure listening.
Is that the way to go??
Once I get a good recording from the Genos ,I then can play with It In Cubase to finalize to bring the song up to a decent - 3db level.
I am thinking also of getting better headphones Like Beyer Dynamics.
That Soundworks program for headphones ---is It worth the money??


What do you think about mixing with Pink Noise???---looks easy to get good results from video that I have watched.


All The best
john

[Tommy 73]

Hi John.. I understand it's not the playing... I use EQ and compression but my compressor is a hardware mulit-band compressor (Drawmer 1973) great for mastering which you can get as a VST version for your DAW and this has many preset which would be good for you I think... one thing to look at is your low-mid frequency say about 185 to 250 Hz and play a round with a tight Q value and reduced NOT boost and see if that helps again lots to read online which could help...I will try to find some useful links for EQ etc for you.... as for Sonarworks 4 room calibration system then it's bloody good once you establish and reconfigure your self with it...but the headphone side of sonarworks i have but not used in practice although a quick test with some good studio headphones was astonishing..so try there online test demo and see what you think and perhaps there free trial (if they have one ?) ... mixing with pink noise I am aware of but have no experience with it so maybe keep things simple for now...  I'm sure you know but small increments with any EQ setting as you go and its not all about boosting all the time as some reducing can be necessary as well

[Tommy 73]

With ref: to the Drawmer 1973 mulitband compressor plug-in and with out trying to over load you with to much information in the sea of voices and information out there...then somthing you could try is the 3 week trial of this mulitband compressor and after some experimentation if you dont like it dont buy it.... so try first with "NO EQ" or any other "Compressors" active and only using the Drawner 1973 plugin then toggle through the presets to find a sound that starts to feel and sound right...then cross ref: this on you home hi-fi...car stereo etc then come back and tweak from there and check again... repeat until you are happy...the nice thing with a mulitband compressors like the Drawmer 1973 is you can use it like an EQ to shape the sound but in small steps at first...let us know how you get on with any of the suggestion put forward in this thread  https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/softube-drawmer-1973-s73-imp  P.s...(Tip)... on the Low Band activate the "BIG" switch and on the High Band again activate the "AIR" switch .

[Lee Batchelor]

John, I still think recording from the Genos should be done "flat." Reason: the adjustment presets on the Genos may be geared toward two things - home playing through the Genos speakers and live playing through fairly loud equipment. Those presets may conflict with studio grade adjustments. So, record on the Genos (flat), and then import the files to Cubase and go to work with as little change as possible.

Remember, certain types of music need a heavy boost in the sub woofer range, while other music needs a maximally flat response. What type of music are you recording? Perhaps you could upload your prototype recording for some of us to evaluate. Sounds like we need more information before we can give you a reliable answer.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Lee
I am doing an electronic number Oxygene 8 and had loads of trouble with bass from electro house style which goes well with the tune for an upbeat sound rather than laid back.
I had to go Into the drum edit In the Style edit section and lower a few things to get It to sound warm, and stop bass from the kick drum thudding the life out of you.
took me some time to get what i wanted
From pro recordings you hear great stereo width and bass not overloaded and nice and warm. You also hear little bits and bobs float about In the stereo field very precise and clear still with that warmth no matter what loudness.
I ask for -3 db , not 0 db..
I have some old Tapco moitors which do sound flat and I have just again looked at them and spent time balancing each side.
I have a small room 10x 10 feet give or take a little with brick built walls and It is quite deadpan with the door closed. The door has small square glass panels and may need some dampening in that area.
The tapco monitors I keep pretty low volume and you then can hear all small detail and I do not hear any reflections, but I am 67 and my hearing may not be that of a 20 year old.
A phone ringing all of a sudden makes me jump out of my skin!!
Well Lee, I have got something reasonable going on the Tapco monitors and I will either be delighted or depressed when trying on my DXR 8's and Marantz stereo.
It Is a long road this mixing and I will keep battling on until I get there.
This Sonarworks seems a little expensive for the works and I am not sure about it 100%.The Genos sounds are almost all prepared for you, so it really should not take a lot to get right.
We all talk about EQ for the Genos , but there should be an standard EQ setting  situation for recording no matter what your environment.
I get Eq-ing to get your listening speakers right for your room.
It would be nice to get an Eq chart rather than having a In depth tutorial about what Is wrong with frequencies just for the record side and then go to Cubase.
When recording  Instrumentals on the Genos It is all internal, so there must be an EQ standard for that , then onwards.

I can do eqing In cubase for a finished song, but It Is the Midi to Audio that Is where I get It all wrong.

All the Best
john

[pjd]

Hi John --

I mix through Mackie 824 studio monitors. Flat EQ and default compression (if enabled at all).

Mastering is the final step and frankly, I'm inclined to use iZotope Ozone Elements for mastering. This means working in a DAW or audio editor (Magix Audio Studio) on PC. Even then, changes at the mastering stage are subtle  -- the mix needs to right before mastering. Mastering is just polish.

On Genos, I now spend time inserting effects on MIDI channels in order to get the basic instrument track sounds that I want to hear.

Although I like my QSC PA speakers, they color the sound -- not very good for producing a mix on a broad range of "targets" like consumer stereo or ear buds! I suspect that the DXRs color the sound, too.

Hope this helps -- pj

[Tommy 73]

https://youtu.be/PR3-J9C4g0M https://youtu.be/WNfTnhcJ8yw and totally agree with PJ... exclude your DXR's in any recording process   

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Tommy
The Drawmer looks nice .
I have LP EQ and LP multband 64bit and must be the same virtualy as the Drawmer.
Be nice on Psr to have a Mixing club as a lot of people would love to get Into the mix
I have centered my tapco monitors and got them sounding great left and right side .
I put my song through them and now making adjustments .
I have decided flat eq and no compression from what is said.
Things are starting to even up now as I have been comparing the the original and some other songs as Mark Styles said.
Also I have looked at the Genos eq and effects foreach Instrument.
I am nearly satisfied with the flat monitoring stage .Then it is on to Cubase hopefully.

All the best
john

[Tommy 73]

Great John.. sounds all good to me and digging into the mix and individual EQ on each instrument sounds like you are getting into the heart of things and hopfuly correcting in the mix first before any final polish with a little mastering later...hopfuly you are enjoying things a little more...have you decoupled your monitors john from your work surface ?... Well worth doing if you have not....liked your Oxygen 8 we have to here the final version when it's finished and don't be scared to try new things and experiment it's all part of the learning curve... I fancy you could give us a good version of Tubular Bells next...

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Tommy
What Do you mean decoupling monitors from work surface ?
I have a long round the wall desk and I have speaker stands with pads on the desk and the speakers are on proper foam pads.
The stand plates which the speakers are sitting on angle slightly so you can centralise to your lug holes!!!
I hope that is ok.
I also do not have the monitors up very loud. I have them just up enough to hear the detail each side.
I hope I am right in saying that I do not get wall reflections as I roughly sit at the apex of the tiangle about 3ft to each speaker cone. The walls around me are brick.
I not an expert in this field but It is all trial and error .
It was the same when I got Into computers and kept crashing my then Pentium 4. Learnt to make Images of the drives. Hopefully Foolproof now. I now have a I7 ,very fast with 32 gig ram running Cubase. Also have vst's.
I have done lots of adjustments now to the sound comparing with pro recordings and that horizontal  slider on the Genos is great as you can go back and forwards.
Tomorrow I will re-record and let my ears have a rest tonight. I will put the song up when finished.
There are so many songs that people do not play and that Is the areas that interest me (like Alan Parsons project, Mr Blue sky full version etc).
I do hope this time meat goes in       sausage comes out!!

All the best
john

Ps   Is It worth It to get some Beyer Dynamic calibrated headphones at a £150 or round about.?

[Tommy 73]

That's it John your monitor stands and foam pads mean they are decoupled... as for the headphones..as long as your audio interface has a good headphone amp and can drive the headphones sufficiently should be ok... perhapes check with your dealer first but I must admit i don't trust headphones for the serious stuff but they are good when every one has gone to bed and allows you to carry on late into the night... the main thing is to get use to your monitors + gear and how things translate back and forth with other audio devices... also one very small thing to do to your monitors...very carfully tighten all the driver screws (speaker screws)  but dont over do it and end up stripping the tread seats..this will tighten your sound up if time has loosened the screws...... maybe save the money on the new hi-end headphones and put it towards some better monitors could be money better spent in the long term
https://www.musictech.net/2015/04/focal-alpha-50-80-review/ or  https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/focal-alpha-65 ...just a thought though                 P.s. "Mr Blue Sky" most definitely

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Tommy

I will see what my old Tapcos do first before deciding on something like Focus Alpha.
I am really trying to get down and master this to a decent standard.
When I first got my Tapco monitors they sounded boxy to me and flat. Well, that Is compared to Hi- Fi speakers.
I eventually found out that they are supposed to be
I am getting the hang of It all now as nothing is coloured.
I have re -recorded the song and done It in one take after about five tries. All registrations set.
I will record each track separate to audio and split the main playing track for processing. The top line has about three registration changes and I can split each part and drag It down to another track.
Experiment time nearly here again.
Later, I will start recording tracks separately, but for covers of a tune just play them.
I want to get the mix side up to a good standard consistantly before attempting Genos with vst combined for my own material..
You may be interested that IK Multimedia are selling 6 effect plugins for the price of one, which includes Mastermatch, eq's and all sorts. This is a new group buy. You pay for the highest price and then you can choose all equivilents.
Just wondering if that is  a good deal  or not.Seems worth exploring. You can only get 5 other plugins equivilent to the first one you pay for.
So for the best ,It would be £120  for 6 plugins.
I do have mastermatch though and It does a good job if you get your homework right, but each tune has different outcomes.
I just have to get some consistancy going.

Another thing that is baffling me is Cubase and the way It treats Midi.
I put my song Into cubase to tighten It up a little and when stopping to edit all is ok, but If I start again the volume of the gm drums goes up considerately. If I go back to the beginning and start again all is ok. I am using a user style and It seems to go back to the preset style, that is if you start and stop anywhere in the song. Strange anomaly, but I will have to compare In Mixmaster .
When editing midi It does change the lead sounds if you have played all of the lead on the top line track. I suppose if you start anywhere but the start with midi, It has to read the program changes. Sometimes you get strange instruments taking over until you restart or go back to the last sound on the same track line.
I hope you know what I mean as It gets a little annoying sometimes. It does not stop you editing though.
Put the song back into the Genos and all Is fine again
No problems with vst editing because that is what the programs like Cubase are built for.
It would be great If Yamaha made a Daw that knows every midi nook and cranny. Well, they should!!
I do feel that Yamaha could make a book for mixing and deeper operations Instead of how to change a sound or make a registration. All you get from Yamaha Is a couple of online manuals and videos of different people showing off what the Genos can do with a few angled shots of the keyboard. Just gloss.
Even Soundpacks do basic tutorials and charge £5 for them and they are nothing more than what you get in the online manual.
These Yamaha programmers and makers of the machine could also give us some of their experience In making non dumbed down videos. A lot of tutorial videos you see is like someone is talking to children and can take an hour to get to the point.
Just my opinion there IMO!!!
Why can't we have a book called    Genos --The works with decent tutorials that go deeper into the machine and get the best out of It. After all the machine cost £3,500 
Well, It Is the same as going on holiday. You can travel around the world with a piece of paper printed from your Hp Hewlett Packard printer!!
You get the feeling that Yamaha do not want you to know everything


All the best
john

[Tommy 73]

 As for your final point john when you look at the synth side of Yamaha's buissness we get the official Yamaha forum with dedicated expert's to answer any inquiries + articles including some YouTube coverage... clearly the other side of there keyboard buissness (Arrangers) which has a large Revenue is lacking in the same after care as the synth side at Yamaha.......

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Tommy

You do get strange things happening when editing midi In cubase, but there are workarounds.
I hope I am not alone with different strange happenings like sound changes or some tracks that go louder than others when stopping and starting and edit.
Always corrects itself when going back to the start
Bit like snakes and ladders.


All the best
John

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Why not some expert here start a section

MIXING FOR MORONS    UGAWOGA!!!

[EileenL]

I suppose when you look at it John Genos is first and foremost an arranger keyboard and is bought by a lot of home players who just like to use what the keyboard will produce for them. Some go out gigging with it and play live entertaining others. To Yamaha it is doing its job and very well to. When it comes to add on's and other things then I think you have to read there guide lines on how to use with your keyboard. I can't see Yamaha producing manuals for all these different applications.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Eileen
You  are right there, but there is a opening for third parties to capitalize on as there must be a lot of home musicians that want decent recording results.
Even if it is for playing at home, I personally would like to reach high standards of recording, otherwise It is an expensive toy. I hate bad recordings as Mp3 is to a wave file.
You cannot beat a wave on a hi-fi.
The Genos is certainly up there with keyboards like the Montage.
I am getting around the Genos and It is a truly great workstation
I always get the feeling that pro's look down on home keyboardist's and Yamaha must do as well as the Montage is well supported and the Genos is fend for yourself.
People are having troubles with audio phrazer and things like that and not much is said about all those advantages.
The price of the Genos warrants better support.
If someone made a video of mixing a song from start to finish on the Genos, It would make a lot of people happy, even if there was a fee.
More support using Genos with cubase would help. More help with sound programming and detailed help on using all the effect modules.
Just a couple of things I my opinion that would  that would benefit the Genos user.
Luckily I have now learnt on my own about a lot of things and probably will learn for the rest of my days
I can understand you saying, but I love the experience so far really

It's a lot of worry aint It Eileen


All the \best
John

[jwyvern]

Hi Tommy

You do get strange things happening when editing midi In cubase, but there are workarounds.
I hope I am not alone with different strange happenings like sound changes or some tracks that go louder than others when stopping and starting and edit.
Always corrects itself when going back to the start
Bit like snakes and ladders.


All the best
John

There should be a setting, maybe in the Preferences menu that forces the DAW to go back to read previous
channel settings  every time you restart play so you get the desired set ups. That's how Sonar and Cubase used to work when I had them installed. (Since I had to reinstall Windows after an update bricked my computer I haven't  bothered to reinstall Cubase yet! )

John

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi John
Did you not save a drive Image???
As soon as your up again save a drive Image in Windows 10. It works great.
My last computer went bonk after updates.
Had a music computer built by PC Specialist here in uk.
Well built and very fast for £1600.Worth every penny.

I will have a look at the preferences In cubase .Thanks for the tip.

All the best
John

[Roland]

Hello John,

Without getting too much into the details: Just remember that any Tyros or Genos "out-of-the-box" is designed to sound good on its own - pretty much how Eileen has suggested all along. But the default settings are NOT what you would use to record a music production in Cubase! And no, not even changing compressor settings and EQ's (with some exceptions) will make it sound better for your Cubase project.

The reason for that is: Tyros and Genos keyboards use a number of DSP's to make them sound great. But when recording, you DO NOT want those DSP's effects (for the most part). The DSP effects you will add later in Cubase; first on a "per-track" basis when mixing and to a very small degree later again when mastering. Assuming you record MIDI to Cubase. Recording Audio is a different story!!!

Let me show you an example: Choose a Style, like ChartBallad for example. The bass drum of the drum kit and the bass drum of the HipHop kit have a reverb programmed to them. Which sounds fine when playing the keys as is. But for recording (especially a MIDI recording in Cubase), that is very bad. You want to record your bass drums and bass dry!

I record all drum and percussion dry when working on a Cubase production (don't forget to "dissolve" the drum kits to individual tracks, and don't forget that each drum element is mono - so is the bass !!). And how do you get them "dry"? (We're still talking MIDI recording!) If you record MIDI from the keys to Cubase, then Cubase will, at playback time, send the recorded MIDI signals to the keys (whatever you record in real-time or by importing a MIDI file). So here I like to remove any signals (CC's) in my MIDI files (use the List Editor) that tell the keys to use DSP's (at least for the drum and bass tracks). AND on the key (use the Mixing Console) I set the track effects (go to EFFECT/TYPE on Tyros) to NO EFFECTS. Now when I render the MIDI track to Audio, I again have a "dry" recording. At this point, I have the basics to start mixing.

Typically it gets "boomy" and "mushy" because of layering reverb, echo and other effects. The "layering" happens sometimes already with the recording, then at play-back time (still have the keys connected as input instruments when mixing? If yes, select "no instrument" to the left in the inspector panel, else you get loop-backs!), then at mix time (some instruments stay "dry" and only get a bit reverb in the overall master mix), and then when you master.

What helped me most: Understanding that there is a BIG difference in the process when recording Audio vs. recording MIDI to a DAW. AND to turn effects OFF when recording for those tracks that don't need those effects in the first place.
And it is a totally different process again if you just record and playback MIDI or Audio on the keyboard without using a DAW.

I hope that this will guide you in the right direction :-)

Take good care. Cheers, Roland

[Roland]

Hi John
Did you not save a drive Image???
As soon as your up again save a drive Image in Windows 10. It works great.
My last computer went bonk after updates.
Had a music computer built by PC Specialist here in uk.
Well built and very fast for £1600.Worth every penny.

I will have a look at the preferences In cubase .Thanks for the tip.

All the best
John

Open the List Editor for the selected track - there you see that it sets your LSB/MSB's, PRG changes, CC's etc. This file always needs to be read by Cubase FROM THE START - to read all settings. So always "rewind" all the way to make sure the file is read from the start. That should do the trick :-)

Cheers, Roland

[jwyvern]

Hi John
Did you not save a drive Image???


All the best
John

Yes, but the computer was so solidly locked up there was no way to get to install it that I could find.

JohnW

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Roland

I will digest what you have said and have a go that way you suggest.
I am up to have a go for anything.
I will just quickly finish the song I have done and look at a new way and take In all the points you have explained to me.
I do like to bang a tune out quickly without too much fuss. Good for practice. Fast results ,but not always the best sounding.
I record a tune and sometimes they come out great and others come out tinny muffly too low volume etc..
I just want to get consistancy with sound.
It Is weird though as I recorded a song on the Tyros 5 sometime back and It sounded great on all equipment.
It does not always turnout that way for the budget minded musician

I have to get Meat going In and sausage coming out!!

All the best
john