Effect4 (or #94) - what is it?

[jimlaing]

Hi - I'm experimenting with sending MIDI commands from a separate keyboard (an M-Audio Code49) to the Genos.  For most part, all is working well.  I found this (see attached image from Data List), CC #94, Effect 4, Variation Send Level, and when I set a slider to send this to (for example) the MIDI channel I use for "RIGHT3", it indeed adds something.  However, I can't figure out what it is!  I have looked at the various Mixer and Voice editing pages, and when I send this command, I can't see anything moving (on the screen display of things one can adjust).  When I send #93, I can see Chorus Depth controls moving (and hear the effect).  When I sent #94, I can hear an effect changing but it's not Reverb, not Chorus, not a DSP insertion effect. 

I also notice that whatever 94 is controlling, is NOT saved with Registrations.  If I send #94 at a good depth (such as MIDI value of 100), the effect is there on RIGHT3 (in my case), then when I go to a new registration with a new/different sound on Right3, it too still has this "effect" that I had added before.

I'm surprised that Registrations are not saving this effect setting.  Should Registration be saving this just like it saved Chorus depth etc.?

Thanks,
Jim

[attachment deleted by admin]

[keynote]

Hi Jim, MIDI CC #94 usually controls detune amount. Yamaha says the Genos saves just about everything to registration so apparently this is one of those rare instances that it doesn't. A Yamaha representative should be able to clarify any discrepancy. You might have to call Yamaha though since getting help from them on this forum is generally next to nil. And believe me it's not as if we haven't tried right?

Mike

[pjd]

Hi Jim --

CC#94 controls the signal level sent from a part (MIDI channel) to the Variation DSP effect unit. The Variation effect can be configured as either a system-level effect like reverb and chorus, or it can be configured as an insert effect and assigned to a specific part.

The effects diagram in the Genos ref manual is way too simplified. I've attached an older effects diagram that shows all of the dials and switches for the XG effects architecture. The old diagram shows the variation send level for each part (AKA CC#94).

Hope this helps -- pj


[attachment deleted by admin]

[jimlaing]

HI - that is helpful - so there is another effects "block" called Variation?  Do you know where I can edit this?  I found the following 2 references to it ("Variation" effect) in the Owner's Manual and Reference Manual (screen grabs attached).  It says that for Panel1 and Panel2 (which I think includes LEFT, R1, R2, R3), the Variation effect cannot be seen.

I wonder what the "intent" is, that is, what is this effect used for?  Is it used mostly "internally" such as in Style parts and Drum parts etc, and not really designed for us "users" to utilize?  I seem to have been able to add this effect (via CC94) to any Part I want ... just can't save the setting with my Registrations.

So, even with everything checked on saving Registrations, it seems that the Variation effect and settings for each part for Variation effect, is not saved ...

Jim

[attachment deleted by admin]

[pjd]

Hi Jim --

Back in the early days of XG hardware, the Variation effect block was the only way to get an effect other than chorus and reverb. It was used mainly for MIDI sequencing. Reverb, Chorus and Variation are the EFFECT1 blocks which are expected in every XG implementation. (Not XG Lite, BTW). All these other new fangled DSP blocks are XG EFFECT2 blocks and are optional.

On arrangers, the variation block usually turns up for style parts and song parts. I guess in "The Yamaha Way," one would regard songs and styles as MIDI sequencing as opposed to just good old fashioned playing.

Just checked on Genos -- Go to the SONG1, SONG2, STYLE1 or STYLE2 pages in the Mixer. Select the EFFECT tab on the left hand side. You should see selection/edit buttons for the Variation effect including the ability to switch it between System and Insert modes.

Hope I got this right since Genos isn't right next to my PC...

All the best -- pj

P.S. Great questions! I'm still learning new things about XG effects every day.

[jwyvern]

The Variation Sends, whether System (I have used these with Tyros and now Genos) or Insert are saved from the Mixer successfully to registrations in the normal way with style ticked. 
John

[SeaGtGruff]

I'm looking at the XG Specifications v 2.00, and on page 21 it says the following:

3.1.6.19.  Effect Send 4 (Variation)

  Ctrl#  Parameter      Data Range
  5EH    Effect4 Depth  00H...7FH
                        Default: 00H

Adjusts the variation-effect send. Effective only if Variation Connection = System.

Note the last sentence. That answers my question in the other thread about whether this CC message can be used to control the depth of an insertion effect!

By the way, from what I've seen in various manuals, it seems that the terms "variation effect" and "DSP effect" are sometimes used interchangeably, although I've never seen an explicit statement that they're interchangeable.

There is also an XG Multi-Part Parameter corresponding to this CC message at address 08H nnH 14H. The XG Specifications has a good deal of information related to the variation effect, as far as the addresses in the XG Variation block, the tables for the Variation types and parameters, etc.

As to the fact that the Variation Type, Variation Depth, and any other Variation-related settings are not saved in Registrations, from what I've seen while examining User Voice files, MIDI song files, style files, etc., the messages for the Variation-related settings are usually found wherever the voices are being selected and set up. That doesn't explain why these settings aren't saved in the Registrations as the Reverb- and Chorus-related settings are. But you might consider setting the Variation Depth as desired and saving it for each of your custom voices. The XG Specifications say that the default Variation Depth is 0, so I'd have thought that the keyboard would automatically set it to 0 for the preset voices, and that if you modify a preset voice and save it as a custom voice then the custom voice would also default to a Variation Depth of 0 (unless you'd changed it).

Oh, I see that John posted while I was writing my comments, and he says that you can in fact save these in Registrations.

[pjd]

Note the last sentence. That answers my question in the other thread about whether this CC message can be used to control the depth of an insertion effect!

Hi Michael --

Definitely true. The EFFECT2 DSP units are all insertion effects and the send is fixed at 127. Even though the send appears in the UI, the value cannot be changed. Nor is there a Sy*** address for changing the send. If an effect algorithm has an input level parameter, it may be used as a send knob. If the algorithm doesn't have an input level parameter of any sort, than you're out of luck.

Same goes for adjusting the wet/dry balance of XG EFFECT2 DSPs.

Good discussion. Thanks -- pj

[jimlaing]

Thanks for the various info about this.  Whatever CC#94 controls, I am definitely able to set/change it for any of the parts (LEFT, RIGHT1, RIGHT2, RIGHT3), freely, and I can hear the change (most often, it's a Delay type effect that is added when setting it above the default of zero (0).

What I can't seem to do is (1) find where this is changed on the Genos (I'm doing it via an external MIDI controller), and (2) save the settings I may want into my Registrations.  It simply is not saved. 

If I set CC#94 for the MIDI channel for RIGHT3 to say 100, then I recall a new Registration, whatever new sound is on RIGHT3 in the new registration, still has the "variation" effect on, and still set at 100.  I can recall one Registration after another, and whatever sound is on RIGHT3, will have the Delay that was the "variation" effect - until I change it by moving the fader on my external controller to re-set it back to zero (or some other value).

Thanks!
Jim

[SeaGtGruff]

If one can save these settings in a Registration by ticking Style in the Mixer, as John said, then I wonder whether a Freeze setting might be causing problems?

[jimlaing]

Thanks - I always do tick "Style" when saving my Registrations.  I checked my Registration Freeze settings, and I have Freeze "OFF".  Is there a possible but where even if Freeze is "Off", some settings are still frozen (not saved/recalled with Registrations)?

Thanks,
Jim