How to integrate external sound modules

[voodoo]

I have tried a few voice files and also a style file that where changed in MixMaster, and there was no problem loading the files into Genos and playing the style...

Hi,

I have come to the same conclusion. Even with running status the voice files still work after editing in MixMaster.

Thank you for the correction..

Uli

[Joe H]

Joe,

I investigated  in editing dummy voices in Genos. My result: You cannot edit user voice set files, unless there is a real voice with same number in preset or expansion area. So you can make dummy voices bank for MSB 062/063 with YEM and make user voices from them which are editable. But this is not possible for arbitrary bank numbers.

And voices files can only be edited, if they origin from the same keyboard. So I cannot edit user voices from S770 or S970 on the Genos.

ULi

This is true, but when I edit a Motif dummy in the Voice Set file, it does not change the Motif Voice when I load the Motif User Voice.  I think the reason for this is the Voice Set file "plays" before the Motif can load the Voice (it takes longer to load a Motif Voice because of the DSPs applied) Whether this is true with the Yammex sound module is yet to be determined.  On the arranger, the Voice is loaded "dry" and then the Voice Set file modifies the Voice.  This is true for all Preset Voices as well as pack Voices.

Furthermore, When I make real-time changes while playing a Motif Voice, the real-time changes are heard with the Motif Voice. Voice Set will transmit most of the parameters (in particular, the Sound Controllers)

Joe H

[Marty]

You may be interested.

In attachment is source code for a voice file (patch change) generator written in Visual C#.   Its a simple 'command line' utility which takes a comma delimited '.csv' file. The csv file contains voice name, Bank select MSB, LSB  and Program change.  The generated voice files are just 52 bytes long.  The voice files have been tested on my PSR s770 connected to my ipad running the 'Sunrizer' synth app. 



[attachment deleted by admin]

[Joe H]

Joe,

I investigated  in editing dummy voices in Genos. My result: You cannot edit user voice set files, unless there is a real voice with same number in preset or expansion area. So you can make dummy voices bank for MSB 062/063 with YEM and make user voices from them which are editable. But this is not possible for arbitrary bank numbers.

And voices files can only be edited, if they origin from the same keyboard. So I cannot edit user voices from S770 or S970 on the Genos.

ULi

UPDATE:

Uli,

I tried this again just now... when I make changes to the "dummy" Voice I created in YEM for the Motif I can edit the Voice Set File and save it as a User Voice.  When I load the (Motif) User Voice, those changes I saved in Voice Set are applied to the Motif Voice.



PS: I think you were talking about editing S970 Voices in YEM... is that correct?  Or did you mean that the S970 Voice Set files do not work on Genos?

Joe H

[Yinon]

Hi Everyone,

I know this thread was addressed a long time ago ...
But - it is very helpful for me (!)

I do have 2 questions -
1. Which free HEX editor is recommended?
2. How can I prevent the voice I select for PC only to play in Genos?
For example -

I want to use RH1 and RH2 to play from Genos and RH3 to be used only for PC. (sent to my Nord keyboard).
I tried setting RH3 volume to zero but this seems to also drop the volume from the Nord.

Thanks

[Joe H]

Since this thread was started, I found the the midi solutions event processor will work to re-map any YEM Voice message to another to call up a Voice on an external keyboard or sound module.  It's the best solution I've found.

http://www.midisolutions.com/prodevp.htm

Joe H

[Yinon]

Thanks Joe.

Not sure how this would have helped my situation.
The challenge: Use Genos as a control keyboard so when I switch registration I will send the relevant PC to another keyboard/module. It gets a little more complex since I'm using all 4 parts (Lower, RH1, RH2, RH3) for most of the registration therefor I can't use them consistently to send a PC.

Here is how I did it:
1. I created a list of dummy sounds using the banks provided on this thread. (Of course I had to change the MSB/LSB/PC with a hex editor)
2. Since I couldn't use any of the parts to send the PC. (They are all assigned with sounds which I was not willing to "sacrifice"). I created a list of dummy songs. These a MIDI songs with nothing recorded on them but a simple PC event set to the relevant sound. In this case I inserted a PC to song channel 1.
3. In the MIDI system config, under the transmit menue, I found the "song ch1" channel and enabled to send only PC (Disabled) any additional events - just in case. I saved this config (I disabled all other MIDI channels for transmit - just in case - by setting it to "off")
4. For each registration, I loaded the relevant dummy song which "calls" the relevant external sound. This song was saved with the registration.

Voila! 

Now when I switched registration, the dummy song (with MIDI channel set to the relevant sound) is sent externally to the keyboard. (No need to to play the dummy song ...

So every time I switch registration the relevant sound is called on the external keyboard. (Yey!)
I know there is the option to have it done with songbook+ and MIDI from an IPAD or use mainstage 3 with a laptop but in this case , I'm trying to minimize the peripherals and focus on the Genos screen.

A little tricky but works like a charm!

If someone is interested to understand more, please let me know.

Thanks for the folks who help on this forum.
This saved me hours of research and testing!

Thanks!

[overover]

...
Here is how I did it:
1. I created a list of dummy sounds using the banks provided on this thread. (Of course I had to change the MSB/LSB/PC with a hex editor)
...

Hi Yinon,

there is NO need to use a HEX EDITOR here to change Bank Select MSB (= CC #0), Bank Select LSB (= CC #32) and PC (Program Change) in a (Dummy) MIDI file. You can use, for example, the free PC (Windows) program "MixMaster" (go to "List View" there), or any other MIDI Sequencer program / DAW.

https://psrtutorial.com/MB/mixMaster.html

You can also edit those MIDI files directly on the Genos (MIDI Multi Recording - Step Edit). If you not see the MSB/LSB/PC here, simply touch "Event Filter" button and make the "right" settings there.


Best regards,
Chris

[BenoitM]

Hi Everyone,

It's a very interesting thread !

I did not make extensive tests, but I have the Korg Wavestation software installed on my PC. I connected the Genos to my PC via an USB cable, set the Midi config in Wavestation, plugged a Jack cable into the 'HeadPhone' slot of my PC and the other end to the 'Mic In' port of my Genos (I could also have plugged it into the 'Aux In' port of the Genos, but since the 'Mic' port can have a DSP assigned to it, I prefer to use the Mic...). So far, so good : everything is working fine, I can select a patch on Wavestation and hear it through the Genos speaker/headphone. I only have to disable the local Left/Voice 1+2+3 voices on my Genos...

Of course, until now, if I wanted to change the selected patch on the Wavestation, I had to go to my PC and manually select the patch ... not really optimal

So, after reading this thread and if I understand correctly, the 'Dummy Voice' trick would allows my to call the Wavestation patch directly from a Genos Registration Or do I need to create a .MID file to select the WaveStation patch and link this MID file to a Genos Registration ?

In fact, the real 'missing part' for me is : how do I discover the correct LSB/MSB/Patch # of a specific Wavestation patch ? (while wrinting this question, I'm thinking : I could install a DAW, start recording a dummy song, then change the patch on the Wavestation side just to see the patch change midi message...  )

Thanks for your thoughts.

Benoit

[Yinon]

Hello Benoit.

The best way to get the MSB/LSB/PC combination is look at the user guide (or reference guide in some cases).

The other way is in trial and error but since you have 128*128*128 (= about 2.1M) combinations, looking for the user guide is a time saver :-)

[Joe H]

Yinon,

The midi solutions event processor can re-map multiple MIDI messages (any type of message to another message)

Download the software and see for yourself.  There are two versions of the Event processor.  One supports up to 10 messages at a time and the other support up to 32 messages at a time. The format for those scripts is a RTF (Rich Text File) that can be opened and edited in MS Word any program that supports RTF.

http://www.midisolutions.com/progtool.htm

Joe H

[Yinon]

Thanks Chris.

Missed your response the other day but reading back I found it.
Thanks!

Now that I know that I can create and edit a specific song with the MSB/LSB/PC values, it make a lot of sense.
In fact, I was able to take a dummy song and add the MSB/LSB to it.

Unfortunately - it does not work ...

The Nord Grand is requesting to user the MSB/LSB/PC for the following -
MSB - zero
LSB - 0-15
PC- 0-24

I was adding MSB then LSB then the PC.
(Seems like my MSB/LSB combo is getting ignored although I made sure the Nord is set to receive MIDI controls).

It receives only the PC ...

Another strage thing is that I can take values above 24 for the PC and it does react to it.

Is there a specific timing to the MSB/LSB/PC even in the song?
Currently I tried setting CC#0  with value of 0 at 000:01:000, CC#32 with value of 8 at: 000:01:000, and PC with values of 10  at 000:01:000.

It does not work ...

I also tried setting up in ppq order - MSB  @ 000:01:000, LSB @ 000:01:001 and PC @ 000:01:002 ....
Still no success.

It's like the MSB/LSB is being ignored ...

Thoughts?

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
Too much techy stuff here!!!

I would just stick an external sound module on midi  in and out or thru or whatever.

Record what you want in Cubase.
In Live situation use styles and set the external module to the right midi channel.
I will get slated for this!!

All the best
John

[Yinon]

Hi John,

You are missing the point.
This is not about recording ...

It's about changing setups with one button for live show.
Every Genos registration is supposed to set the sounds coming from Genos + sounds coming from and external module.

Yes - you can do it with external software but why if you have such an advanced Keyboard... (Genos)

Chris, Uli, John?

Any idea's ?

Thanks

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi

I thought system exclusive set ups could be implemented
If i remember you could send a system excluvive setup to Cubase or most daw's and at of a press of a buttion find the system exclusive message and send it to instrument and all is set up,but  for live you may need a laptop with a program like Cubase to store the exclusive setups.
I am not an expert in these matters , but system exclusive banks should be possible with a daw.
I did something like this ages ago , but cannot remember exactly everything  I do not play live ,so not necessary fior me as registrations will do


All the best

[overover]

Hi Yinon,

if not done so, please make sure that in MIDI display - - - > Transmit both checkmarks "CC" and "PC" are set for the Song Part (Channel) you are using to transmit the MIDI data of your Dummy MIDI files:



Normally all three Messages (CC 0, CC 32, PC) can be placed on the very first tick of the Dummy file. IF you use a delay between the messages, I recommend to use a minimum of 40 ticks:

001 : 1 : 0000    CC 0
001 : 1 : 0040    CC 32
001 : 1 : 0080    PC

Note: Yamaha Program numbers are counted "1 - 128", while MIDI Program Change numbers are "0 - 127".

Best regards,
Chris

[Yinon]

Thanks Chris!

Found it with your help.
I was using song channel 1 for sending the Midi Messages and the CC was disabled (I did it myself ...).

So now I'm able to send MSB, LSB and PC all on ppq 0000.

Yey!

I do have a strange thing happening, now with the CC enable for the channel, when I send the message, the sound is decreasing in volume.

I tried sending CC#7 = 127 but this doesn't help.
Could sy*** message modify volume?

Thanks for all your help so far!

[overover]

Hi Yinon,

thank you for your kind feedback!

... I do have a strange thing happening, now with the CC enable for the channel, when I send the message, the sound is decreasing in volume.

I tried sending CC#7 = 127 but this doesn't help.
Could sy*** message modify volume? ...

I recommend to load such a Dummy MIDI file in "MixMaster". Click on "List View" button, and you will see ALL MIDI data. If there are additional data in the file (not only CC #0, CC #32 and PC), you can delete the other data easily here and save the file again.

https://psrtutorial.com/MB/mixMaster.html


Best regards,
Chris

[Yinon]

Thanks Chris,

Will load MixMaster but I found it without ...
There is a song volume (A and B) which by default is set to 100.
Boost it to 127, save the registration again and there you go!

All -
If you even need to to get Genos used as master keyboard and your registrations to control an external sound source through MIDI, this is your thread :-)

This is awesome!

[StuartR]

Hi Joe,

wow, I did not expect this. This is a little disappointing. Have you tried to locate the cause for the problem? Do user voices never send out midi? Or does the OS know, which bank numbers are legal and which are not? Can there be another cause for the problem? Like corrupting the voice files by editing them?

Have you tested this:

* Save any S970 voice as user voice.
* Monitor the midi out if it sends the MSB/LSB/PC
* Edit the voice file to some other voice number
* Check, which combinations work and which do not

I have seen, that the Genoss does not send all the other midi information from the voice file. It only sends the MSB/LSB/PC. So there seems to a filter, too. I will experiment a little more on this topic.

Uli

I've used your voice selection files on my Genos  (thank you very much for the great effort) and while they do transmit PC midi data to my iPad sound source app, I'm noticing that they don't work consistently. Sometimes I have to manually reselect the voice file to get it to send the PC. Don't yet know if it's a Genos issue or the iPad app isn't consistently listening!  Anyone else seen this behavior?

[Joe H]

Hi Stuart,

As has been noted above, If you have a Motif or other Yamaha instrument that uses the MSB 063 for Normal Voices and MSB 062 for drum kits then the dummy Voice pack loaded in Genos will work. But also noted above is the fact the the Voice Set file is transmitted very fast before the Motif can load its Voice with all the DSP, Filters, Arps, and other settings, so the Voice Set settings won't apply... but if you select the Voice a second time after the Voice is loaded, or maybe select a User Voice with modified settings... the Voice Set settings will then be applied to the external Voice. 

When I select an analog Voice for my AN plug-in card using the midi solutions Event Processor to re-map the MSB 063 to MSB 036, the Analog card Voices load correctly including Voice Set settings because the AN Voices do not have all the preset setups as the Motif.

So... I'm wondering if there is a latency issue with the iPad

Here is my custom MIDI configuration for when I use the dummy Voice packs:

R1, Ch1 - Local Off
R1, Ch1 Transmit: Note, CC, PC, PB, AT
R1, Ch1 Receive: CC, PB, AT (if the Ipad Voices have an arpeggiator, you might try receiving Notes as well)

Joe H

[StuartR]

Hi Joe and others,

here I post some generic voice files for several banks:

* Bank-00-00: GM - Use this to call the GM voices of the Genos

* Bank-36-02: This is for Joe and his AN plug-in card

* Bank-63-00: Use this for example for Motif Rack XS Preset Bank 1
* Bank-63-01: Use this for example for Motif Rack XS Preset Bank 2
* Bank-63-02: Use this for example for Motif Rack XS Preset Bank 3
* Bank-63-03: Use this for example for Motif Rack XS Preset Bank 4
* Bank-63-04: Use this for example for Motif Rack XS Preset Bank 5
* Bank-63-05: Use this for example for Motif Rack XS Preset Bank 6
* Bank-63-06: Use this for example for Motif Rack XS Preset Bank 7
* Bank-63-07: Use this for example for Motif Rack XS Preset Bank 8

* Bank-64-00: Use this for sound modules which need only PC. Bank number 64 is just dummy.
* Bank-64-01: Use this for sound modules which react to LSB=01, for example M1 EX Presets
* Bank-64-02: Use this for sound modules which react to LSB=02, for example M1 Memory
* Bank-64-03: Use this for sound modules which react to LSB=03, for example M1 Synth 1

If these voice files work for you, you can rename them as you like.

Joe, can you test these voice files on the S970?

Uli

P.S.: I used a hex editor to generate the PC numbers of one bank. Then I used grepWin to change the bank numbers of all files of a bank by one click.
P.P.S.: The program change numbers are zero-based. Add one, if you want to start counting from one.

While these voice files work just fine to call up external MIDI sound module patches they also call internal Genos GM/XG voices which requires you to deselect local play for that voice. Since this can only be done in the Genos MIDI setup page it's not selectable via registration memory. This makes the use of external sound devices playable on the Genos keybed impractical. Am I overlooking something obvious here I hope??

[Bill]

Hi
Too much techy stuff here!!!

On the contrary, I'm enjoying trying to understand it all.  Just waiting for these MIDI Guro's to fathom out how to send a Sy*** command so that it stops my wife moaning that I am spending to much time reading about it.

However is my understanding correct that if you use the dummy Voice file to send info to the module, you do not have any voice playing on the KB, ie still just the 1 LH and 3 RH Voices.

Regards

Bill

[Joe H]

The dummy Voice (external instrument) will play on R1 only (since Local is turned off, there is no keyboard sounds on R1) so you have Left, R2 and R3 you can layer with R1 if you choose to.

Joe H

[Mendel]

I would like to make dummy voices for my genos that will recall different voices on samplerobot
using Logic Pro, any insights on how to do this? Should I use a different daw that would do the job
Better? Also, it would be nice that basic sound control like pan and volume would also be activated..

[Joe H]

Mendel,

This topic was discussed a couple of weeks ago in a different thread. Maybe you will get some ideas from the discussion.

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,44663.msg434043.html#msg434043

Joe H