Genos Abruptly Stops Playing

[rickbrenner]

I am having a problem where the song I'm playing comes to a screeching halt at certain chord changes.  It's only been happening this week, so I haven't done extensive testing to see if it happens with different voices and effects.  The particular voices that I'm using in this case are three different guitars - a concert, 12 string and one other - and a tremolo DSP effect. 

I have a call in to Yamaha - waiting for their expert to call me back.

Wonder if anyone has ever had this happen on Genos or Tyros.  I'm new to Genos in the past month.  Previously used MotifXS.

Rick Brenner

[pjd]

Hi Rick --

Welcome to the Forum!

Any more details that would help someone to reproduce the behavior? What are the changes? What is the fingering mode? Which style? Any other button pressing or user gestures when the Genos stops playing? What version of the Genos software?

I know you're frustrated, so I suppress the urge to make comments about jazz chords...

All the best -- pj

[rickbrenner]

Thanks so much for the welcome.   Frustrating problem.  Yamaha's tech never called me back today - hopefully tomorrow.  I was able to recreate the problem tonight using different voices.  It happens when I have three instruments turned on - right 1, 2 and 3 - with or without accompaniment - as long as I play full chords (four notes on each hand).  If it just play the melody note on the right hand, it doesn't happen. 

The song I was playing around with was "To Know Him is to Love Him" (Parton/Ronstadt/Harris).  It's happens easily in the bridge - E - B - A - Ab.   Right now I have CFX concert grand on 1, D Folk guitar on 2 and Concert guitar on 3.  No special effects.  Previously I was using Concert Guitar on 1 with guitar tremolo 1, 12 string picked with guitar tremolo 2 and steel acoustic finger on 3 with rotary speaker 2.  (Gorgeous sound, by the way).  It happens in either case.

I did a quick midi recording so I can have it for the tech if he calls me.

When I got home tonight the first thing I did was upgrade from 1.2 to 1.3.  Didn't make a difference.

The book says that if some notes don't sound when you play its probably because you've exceeded the maximum polyphony of the instrument.  But it says, 'When the maximum polyphony is exceeded, the least important notes (such as soft notes and notes currently decaying) will stop sounding first."  (Troubleshooting section - P120).  It doesn't say that when you exceed the maximum polyphony that the damn thing quits entirely - which is what happens.

I'd be interested in anyone else can duplicate this.  You don't need to have accompaniment on.  Just play around with with three voices active and play chords and inversions with all four or five fingers on each hand playing notes simultaneously and with sustain.

Many thanks,

Rick Brenner

[Lee Batchelor]

Wild guess here - is that particular setup and chord sequence maxing out the CPU? Doesn't seem likely. This beast is made for multi-tasking in the extreme!

Asked and answered?

[panos]

Hi Rick,
Can you try the same without the sustain button on, to see if this problem will still be happening?
The sustain maybe will make the notes to play for several bars,
so after some bars maybe there are still lots of notes playing in the backround without you being able to hear them.
For example, when you are playing at bar 10, maybe all or some notes from bars e.g 4 to 9 are still playing also and the keyboard cannot produce more notes simultaneously.
Just a guess...

[EileenL]

I have just tried out these setting and you are right it is a lovely sound. I have had no problem playing four cord notes on both hands and to me all sounds fine. With or without Accoump. What do you have your split point set to.

[jwyvern]

Hi Rick,
Just to provide further evidence, I have repeated the experience noted in Eileen's post. Meaning no problem with 4 note chording in both hands with and without accompaniment, sustain or auto harmony.
I often play as above with Strings and BigBand  voices so I'd have had some opportunity to run into difficulties before if any fundamental problems existed. 
I am puzzled what we are looking for though. What do you mean where you say the song comes to a screeching halt, doesn't that depend on whether you keep playing or perhaps you are playing to a midi song and it's the latter that stops?
Or do you mean all keyboard voices suddenly go silent or maybe just some of them? It would help to clarify. 

John

[rickbrenner]

Yes - suddenly go silent.  I'll try uploading a recording.

[Tankdave]

And its going dead "without" any button or pedal being pressed or prodded?

Reason for asking, is I had a host of issues with pedals causing this same issue

[jsb1999]

I had a similar issue, which we discussed on this forum last October, as illustrated by the attached mp3. When lifting the sustain pedal, the currently held keys stop sounding. As best we could determine certain voices (some guitars and EPs for example) have a 'note-off' sound. A sound which plays when the note is released, often very subtle. When the sustain pedal is released the note-off sound plays for any notes which were being sustained. Since these sounds just occurred, they are given a higher priority than any previous sounds, (including the notes that you are currently holding down on the keyboard!) and can max out the polyphony.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[EileenL]

I set your sounds up with the Sustain button pressed on the keyboard and did not have a problem at all.

[jsb1999]

Actually, it's not related to the Sustain button, it's the Sustain pedal.
To reproduce the problem:
1. Select a String sound as R1, a 70s Suitcase EP as R2, and another 70s Suitcase EP as R3.
2. In Assignable - Foot Pedals - Sustain, place a check in the boxes for R2 and R3 but not R1
3. Press the Sustain pedal and keep is depressed.
4. Play every white key from the bottom of the keyboard to the top. (keep the Sustain depressed)
5. Play a chord (keep the Sustain depressed and your fingers on the keys) The strings will play the chord.
6. While your fingers continue to play the chord, release the Sustain pedal.
7. The sound disappears, even though you are still holding down the notes.

[EileenL]

The only pedal I can see that you can turn off a part is the Volume or Swell pedal. It is Marked Pedal3 and here you can turn parts on and off. This is not used for sustain. You need to use Pedal 1 or 2 and Pedal should just click on and off and not a latching operation. With this type you can not turn parts on and Off.

[jsb1999]

Step 2: By 'turn on' I mean check the boxes for R2 and R3 but not R1 in the Assignable - Foot Pedals - Sustain screen.
So that the Sustain pedal sustains voices 2 and 3, but not 1.

[jwyvern]

Rik,
When everything goes silent how do you get the sound back, does it return without you doing anything after a minute or so or is there something more drastic you have to do?
I had about 3 occasions with version 1.2 where all sound went off seemingly related to a lot of editing and complicated playing activity to check it out. Also I noticed a stack of screens had built up in memory because I kept flipping around from one function to another. On 2 occasions the sounds returned after a short time. On the third they did not. Restarting and resetting did not help. What I then did was turn my separate speaker system off and then back on, and lo and behold the sound was back.
I haven't made much of this because of the lack of detail and I haven't experienced anything similar so far with version 1.3 (and you say you recently updated to v1.3). But feel free to make of it what you will
John

[XeeniX]

I think it is not "genos" related, same "problem" occurs every now and then on my Tyros 5. At first I thought it was the (cheaper) M-Audio sustain pedal that I use. But following the instructions from several posters in this topic I can reproduce the same thing,

This post doesn't solve anything of coursed but I thought you guys would like to know it's not only happening on a Genos.

best regards,
Peter

[rickbrenner]

JS - you are 100% correct.  I'm repeated testing, the problem is definitely caused by the sustain pedal - not the sustain button.  If I turn the sustain button on and keep my foot off of the sustain pedal, the problem goes away, but my ability to control sustain goes away.   The problem occurs with the sustain pedal whether or not I have the sustain button on.  (To be honest, until I started this thread, I had never even noticed or used the sustain button). 

Another crazy thing is that while it happens more often the more notes I am holding down, it does happen sometimes when I don't have many.  And it always happens on a pedal up  (turning off the sustain). 

It's challenging because for the voices where it occurs, I have to learn a new way to play to avoid it. 

Rick

(BTW - 26 hours and counting - no call from Yamaha Tech)

[rickbrenner]

JS - I downloaded your MP3 and it's the exact same issue.

[jwyvern]

While JS's test shows an interesting limitation it is very severe and "should"  not be representative of how the sustain pedal is used for musical effect. Normally the pedal is used intermittently and released without eating severely or totally into the available Polyphony of the keyboard as in the test. Even on an acoustic piano, while the notes won't cut out , if you apply the sustain pedal for too long while chords and melody are continuing to be played you will end up with a non musical cacophony as all the notes run into one another. So the pedal needs to be used judiciously on the keyboard too. I use the pedal regularly for piano, also Mantovani effects on strings occasionally, sometimes too much when experimenting, but have not had all notes cut out as a result.
John

[travlin-easy]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and take a wild guess based on my own experience  many years ago. I created a registration where I had ticked the wrong box for the Pedal. Instead of sustain, I had inadvertently clicked Volume. The second I stepped what I thought to be a sustain pedal, all sounds instantly stopped. Might want to check out your pedal settings.

Good luck,

Gary 

[rickbrenner]

Gary - where would I check the setting you're referencing?   The only settings I made were to choose the voices and add certain DSP's to each voice - and change the tempo.

Rick

[jwyvern]

Gary - where would I check the setting you're referencing?   The only settings I made were to choose the voices and add certain DSP's to each voice - and change the tempo.

Rick

With your set up in place press direct access, then move the pedal and see what function is displayed on screen for that pedal. Sustain or volume? Also see what voice parts are ticked for it. Normally you would only want the piano part active if a number of voices are playing together.

John

[keynote]

First of all I don't think the problem is a result of running out of polyphony. I also tried to replicate the "problem" but was unable to do so regarding the first setup i.e. CFX concert grand on 1, D Folk guitar on 2 and Concert guitar on 3, no special effects. The CFX concert grand is configured to utilize sustain. So when you let your foot off the sustain pedal all the sound(s) continue to play while the CFX concert grand utilizes the sustain function.  At least so the theory goes anyway. That was my experience regarding the first setup. All the voices continued to play after the sustain pedal was released.

In the second setup i.e. Concert Guitar on 1 with guitar tremolo 1, 12 string picked with guitar tremolo 2 and steel acoustic finger on 3 with rotary speaker 2, I was able to replicate the "problem" and that is because all three voices are guitar(s) which have key-off (note off) effects - when you hold a note over a certain time - when you let your foot off the sustain pedal while the keys are pressed the key off (note off) is engaged and the sounds stop which is a normal occurence in certain situations for a guitar Super Articulation voice. So this is not a 'bug' it is a feature. PS: I'm not sure why the "problem" occurs for you in both instances since I could not replicate the "problem" when using the CFX concert grand on R1.

This is my take on it anyway. It would be nice if a Yamaha representative chimed in to clarify any possible misconceptions we might have.

Mike 

[Tankdave]

When this was happening to me, it was because a pedal that I believed was NOT a volume pedal was being changed to a volume pedal by what I'll call a "rogue" registration

This "change" was happening way ahead of what I was doing at the time, it was just sitting there like a time-bomb.

i.e. It was not causing an issue until I operated the sustian pedal and then all sound stopped, it drove me nuts for weeks

[rickbrenner]

Mike,

First of all, thanks a million to you and to everyone else here who has duplicated my settings and tried to help.  I think you are 100% correct in what is happening to me.  It definitely is caused by my releasing the pedal - essentially trying to use the pedal as I have as a pianist.  Clearly I have to learn a new paradigm for this instrument. 

Since I posted this, and everyone has chipped in with tips and insight as to the problem, I have been using the sustain button next to the arpeggio key and the issue has disappeared.  I still don't feel 100% comfortable not using the pedal but hopefully that will come in time as I learn to sustain more with my hands and with the sustain button.

Thanks again,

Rick

[Ed B]

Rick
You should be able to use the sustain pedal the same as you have for a piano. I think if you use a Yamaha FC4 pedal and assign it to pedal position "one" it should be fine. Use the other pedal positions for volume or other features.
Regards
Ed B

[jwyvern]

Rick
You should be able to use the sustain pedal the same as you have for a piano. I think if you use a Yamaha FC4 pedal and assign it to pedal position "one" it should be fine. Use the other pedal positions for volume or other features.
Regards
Ed B

Yes that's a point. What is the type of pedal you are using? It should be a straight on and off switch. Press down and sustain goes on, raise your foot a beat or so later and the sustain goes off. Playing a piano voice like that should result in no problem at all. However if the pedal is a latching type, once the sustain goes on it will not go off when you first release the pedal! You have to press it a second time. There is plenty of opportunity to over sustain if you do not realise this and perhaps run into the problems you encounter. (Do not use a latching type for sustain).

John

[Lloyd E]

Have you transferred Expansion Packs or styles from the Tyros  5 to the Genos. If you have then perhaps some of the presets have these expansion voices on board and if
you do some of them will not play at all because these voices are not in the Genos.  You will see a grand piano listed in voices 1,2, and three. I have had this happen to me
and hopefully this may be the problem with some of your presets. Hope this might help you. Sincerely, Lloyd

[rickbrenner]

Have you transferred Expansion Packs or styles from the Tyros  5 to the Genos. If you have then perhaps some of the presets have these expansion voices on board and if you do some of them will not play at all because these voices are not in the Genos.  You will see a grand piano listed in voices 1,2, and three. I have had this happen to me and hopefully this may be the problem with some of your presets. Hope this might help you. Sincerely, Lloyd

Thanks Lloyd.  I have installed the expansion pack that Yamaha offers for free but none of those voices were involved.  I Think it's the note off issue with certain voice.

[rickbrenner]

Yes that's a point. What is the type of pedal you are using? It should be a straight on and off switch. Press down and sustain goes on, raise your foot a beat or so later and the sustain goes off. Playing a piano voice like that should result in no problem at all. However if the pedal is a latching type, once the sustain goes on it will not go off when you first release the pedal! You have to press it a second time. There is plenty of opportunity to over sustain if you do not realise this and perhaps run into the problems you encounter. (Do not use a latching type for sustain).

John

I have two sustain pedals - Old FC3 pedal I've had for years and a new FC4A that I bought with the Genos.  Same result with both.