FW 1.20: not fixed: DSP parameters

[voodoo]

Hi,

it is still not possible, to easily edit parameters of DSP when more than one DSP is assigned to a part. Only the last DSP in the chain is displayed in voice hub and can be edited.

This was better in Firmware 1.02. There was an edit button in DSP assignment dialog. So I hoped this feature would come back.... 

Uli

[pjd]

Need to be able to edit more than 16 DSP effect parameters, including the missing parameters for the UNI COMP and new rotary speaker effect.

Need to be able to use the foot pedal to control all user controllable parameters for all DSP effects that have them, not just the WAH effect.

Need access to UNI COMP side-chain input, i.e., a way to connect a signal to the side-chain input.

Need to control signal level from drawbar tone generator into the rotary speaker drive effect. Distortion level must track the input level in order to accurately emulate real world distortion.

Need a way to insert a distortion block between the drawbar tone generator and the rotary speaker in order to make up for the wimpy drive in the new rotary speaker effect.

Thanks for starting a thread about DSP effect issues.

-- pj

[StuartR]

Need to be able to edit more than 16 DSP effect parameters, including the missing parameters for the UNI COMP and new rotary speaker effect.

Need to be able to use the foot pedal to control all user controllable parameters for all DSP effects that have them, not just the WAH effect.

Need access to UNI COMP side-chain input, i.e., a way to connect a signal to the side-chain input.

Need to control signal level from drawbar tone generator into the rotary speaker drive effect. Distortion level must track the input level in order to accurately emulate real world distortion.

Need a way to insert a distortion block between the drawbar tone generator and the rotary speaker in order to make up for the wimpy drive in the new rotary speaker effect.

Thanks for starting a thread about DSP effect issues.

-- pj

All good ideas. Has any of this been requested by contacting Yamaha directly?

[pjd]

Hi Stuart,

I am just getting caught up. Lots of travel this month.

I've sent Yamaha a version of the comments posted at http://sandsoftwaresound.net/genos-needed-dsp-improvements/

pj

[pjd]

Although Yamaha have added the new rotary speaker effect to the Genos,
there is still work needed to make the drawbar organ experience
realistic and competitive with Hammond clones. Yamaha needs to bring
the drawbar experience up to the same level of realism and detail as
Super Articulation 2 voices.

The current drawbar organ implementation is much the same as the
previous Tyros and S-series drawbar organ mode. The drawbar signal
chain consists of a tone generation stage followed by the rotary
speaker effect:

                                 Rotary
    Drawbar tone generator ----> Speaker ----> Mixing Console
                                 Effect

The output is sent into the usual Genos/Tyros/PSR Mixing Control and
system-level effects architecture.

The drawbar tone generator has an eight level volume control that
determines the level of the pure drawbar signal. The user sets this
level using a virtual drawbar in the drawbar mode graphical user
interface (GUI). So, the signal that hits the input of the rotary
speaker effect is constant at the level set by the user. In
Genos-land, the foot pedal sets XG MIDI channel volume, i.e., changes
the post-effect volume level of the organ's channel in the Mixing
Console.

Problem is, that's not the way the real-world works. On a Hammond, for
example, the foot pedal changes the signal level hitting the rotary
speaker. The foot pedal does two things:

    1. It changes the overall volume level of the instrument (i.e., what
       the audience hears), and

    2. It changes the signal level hitting the rotary speaker pre-amp.

The second point is crucial for realism as the amount of pre-amp
distortion changes with the signal level. A higher signal produces
more distortion and a low-level signal is relatively clean.

The existing Genos drawbar implementation does not do this. The amount
of distortion is set once and is constant. The amount of distortion
does not change with the organ volume. The way the expression pedal
changes channel volume sounds unnatural and is not realistic.

Many of us on the PSR Tutorial Forum have tried to work around this
problem. We also find the drive in the new rotary speaker effect to
be, well, wimpy. So, we have tried inserting a distortion effect
before the rotary speaker effect, etc. and have run into several
limitations and roadblocks. These issues have to do with DSP effect
chaining, access to DSP effect parameters and control of DSP effect
parameters.

Here's a short list of recommendations:

    * Be able to control the signal level from the drawbar tone
      generator into the rotary speaker drive effect. The distortion level
      must track the input level in order to accurately emulate real world
      distortion.

    * Be able to insert a distortion block between the drawbar tone
      generator and the rotary speaker in order to make up for the wimpy
      drive in the new rotary speaker effect.

    * Be able to edit parameters of a DSP effect when more than one
      DSP is assigned to a part. Only the last DSP in the chain is displayed
      in voice and can be edited. In Firmware v1.02, there was an edit
      button in DSP assignment dialog. Please bring this feature
      back.

    * Be able to edit more than 16 DSP effect parameters, including
      the missing parameters for the UNI COMP and new rotary speaker effect.

    * Be able to use the foot pedal to control all user controllable
      parameters for all DSP effects that have them, not just the WAH
      effect.

    * Provide access to the UNI COMP side-chain input, i.e., a way to
      connect a signal to the side-chain input.

Yamaha's effect engineers are getting ahead of the Genos developers by
designing effect algorithms with more than 16 parameters, side-chain
inputs and so forth. These features are currently hidden or
inaccessible to Genos users. For example, we cannot change the
slow-fast and fast-slow times of the rotor nor can we connect a signal
into the side-chain input of the UNI COMP compressor.

When Genos developers design the graphical user interface (GUI) to
manage chained DSP effects, they should call their colleagues at Line
6. The Helix Native plug-in has a spiffy signal flow window in which a
Helix user creates and edits a virtual pedal board. The user creates
effect blocks and interconnects them. Genos should have a similar
visual interface for creating and managing DSP effects that are
chained. Touching an effect block should open the detailed parameters
for the block. The Genos touch panel would be a natural for this kind
of interaction.

The XG architecture has always provided for effect parameters which
can be controlled by an assignable controller (e.g., AC1). Yet, the
only two Genos effects which may practically be controlled in this way
are the WAH effect and rotary speaker speed. Yamaha need to unleash
the power of Genos' assignable sliders, knobs and buttons by
generalizing control. Please let us assign any MIDI controller to any
parameter in any effect block. (Rotary speaker speed only affects the
rotary speaker block in the drawbar signal chain.)

So, I hope the Genos team takes these suggestions into consideration and
makes them part of a future update. These improvements would make Genos
truly competitive against other premium-priced keyboards -- clones,
not just arrangers.

[StuartR]

Although Yamaha have added the new rotary speaker effect to the Genos,
there is still work needed to make the drawbar organ experience
realistic and competitive with Hammond clones. Yamaha needs to bring
the drawbar experience up to the same level of realism and detail as
Super Articulation 2 voices.

The current drawbar organ implementation is much the same as the
previous Tyros and S-series drawbar organ mode. The drawbar signal
chain consists of a tone generation stage followed by the rotary
speaker effect:

                                 Rotary
    Drawbar tone generator ----> Speaker ----> Mixing Console
                                 Effect

The output is sent into the usual Genos/Tyros/PSR Mixing Control and
system-level effects architecture.

The drawbar tone generator has an eight level volume control that
determines the level of the pure drawbar signal. The user sets this
level using a virtual drawbar in the drawbar mode graphical user
interface (GUI). So, the signal that hits the input of the rotary
speaker effect is constant at the level set by the user. In
Genos-land, the foot pedal sets XG MIDI channel volume, i.e., changes
the post-effect volume level of the organ's channel in the Mixing
Console.

Problem is, that's not the way the real-world works. On a Hammond, for
example, the foot pedal changes the signal level hitting the rotary
speaker. The foot pedal does two things:

    1. It changes the overall volume level of the instrument (i.e., what
       the audience hears), and

    2. It changes the signal level hitting the rotary speaker pre-amp.

The second point is crucial for realism as the amount of pre-amp
distortion changes with the signal level. A higher signal produces
more distortion and a low-level signal is relatively clean.

The existing Genos drawbar implementation does not do this. The amount
of distortion is set once and is constant. The amount of distortion
does not change with the organ volume. The way the expression pedal
changes channel volume sounds unnatural and is not realistic.

Many of us on the PSR Tutorial Forum have tried to work around this
problem. We also find the drive in the new rotary speaker effect to
be, well, wimpy. So, we have tried inserting a distortion effect
before the rotary speaker effect, etc. and have run into several
limitations and roadblocks. These issues have to do with DSP effect
chaining, access to DSP effect parameters and control of DSP effect
parameters.

Here's a short list of recommendations:

    * Be able to control the signal level from the drawbar tone
      generator into the rotary speaker drive effect. The distortion level
      must track the input level in order to accurately emulate real world
      distortion.

    * Be able to insert a distortion block between the drawbar tone
      generator and the rotary speaker in order to make up for the wimpy
      drive in the new rotary speaker effect.

    * Be able to edit parameters of a DSP effect when more than one
      DSP is assigned to a part. Only the last DSP in the chain is displayed
      in voice and can be edited. In Firmware v1.02, there was an edit
      button in DSP assignment dialog. Please bring this feature
      back.

    * Be able to edit more than 16 DSP effect parameters, including
      the missing parameters for the UNI COMP and new rotary speaker effect.

    * Be able to use the foot pedal to control all user controllable
      parameters for all DSP effects that have them, not just the WAH
      effect.

    * Provide access to the UNI COMP side-chain input, i.e., a way to
      connect a signal to the side-chain input.

Yamaha's effect engineers are getting ahead of the Genos developers by
designing effect algorithms with more than 16 parameters, side-chain
inputs and so forth. These features are currently hidden or
inaccessible to Genos users. For example, we cannot change the
slow-fast and fast-slow times of the rotor nor can we connect a signal
into the side-chain input of the UNI COMP compressor.

When Genos developers design the graphical user interface (GUI) to
manage chained DSP effects, they should call their colleagues at Line
6. The Helix Native plug-in has a spiffy signal flow window in which a
Helix user creates and edits a virtual pedal board. The user creates
effect blocks and interconnects them. Genos should have a similar
visual interface for creating and managing DSP effects that are
chained. Touching an effect block should open the detailed parameters
for the block. The Genos touch panel would be a natural for this kind
of interaction.

The XG architecture has always provided for effect parameters which
can be controlled by an assignable controller (e.g., AC1). Yet, the
only two Genos effects which may practically be controlled in this way
are the WAH effect and rotary speaker speed. Yamaha need to unleash
the power of Genos' assignable sliders, knobs and buttons by
generalizing control. Please let us assign any MIDI controller to any
parameter in any effect block. (Rotary speaker speed only affects the
rotary speaker block in the drawbar signal chain.)

So, I hope the Genos team takes these suggestions into consideration and
makes them part of a future update. These improvements would make Genos
truly competitive against other premium-priced keyboards -- clones,
not just arrangers.

Another great post from Dr. Paul. Those of you unfamiliar with Paul's career will find these technical treatises typical of his highly skilled technical work and teaching abilities.

[Antonio]

I appreciated these therapeutic inputs, now I have given up, and I wait for everything to happen. Someone says that we must have faith .......
Maybe tomorrow morning it's Sunday, UPGRADE 1.92 arrives AND I WILL HAVE ALL HAPPY AND CONTENTS!

[KeyboardByBiggs]

What Dr. Paul said! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 

[valimaties]

I appreciated these therapeutic inputs, now I have given up, and I wait for everything to happen. Someone says that we must have faith .......
Maybe tomorrow morning it's Sunday, UPGRADE 1.92 arrives AND I WILL HAVE ALL HAPPY AND CONTENTS!

I don'think will happening 

[pjd]

Thanks, Stuart! I've write these things down so I won't forget them.   

BTW, this forum and its people are a fountain of shared experience and knowledge. I've learned a tremendous amount from everyone. Thanks!

-- pj

[Antonio]

Dear Valimaties ans Eileen,

Remember it was March 2018

it seems that the dear YAMAHA, HE HAS HEARED ME,

HOLY YAMAHA, HE LISTENED TO ME,  MADE BETTER 2.0 INSTEAD OF 1.92 REQUEST.

In this case I have to say THANKS YAMAHA !!!!

Big Thanks all to Team Yamaha............

Antonio

[valimaties]

Hi Antonio.

It is 2.0 and not 1.xx because of the expanded memory, new content and all those new functions. All together make a "new like" keyboard. It is normal to be a software upgrade and not an update. It has major things added which make it an upgrade
This is my POV.

Regards,
Vali