Expansion Packs deleted upon install of new ones

[trebor1950]

Hi All:
Now this may be me (possibly is) but..... I currently have 10 packs listed in Yem and installed (via a USB stick) in the Expansion section of my Genos...All is good and working. 

I then created another 'Pack Install File' for a newly purchased pack (unticked the other packs listed) ticked the new pack - loaded to USB - Loaded to Expansion directing it to the USB stick  (all good so far). Then to be able to load this new extension I'm only given one option that I have to agree to in order to continue, which is "All the expansion content will be deleted. Continue?" Cancel or OK.  I press OK, install continues and completes. Genos restarts.   Then to my horror all the other packs I previously installed have been deleted (I know it did warn me).

So my main question is - to install an additional Pack do I need to create a 'Pack Install File' that incorporates all the packs I have within YEM?

I actually did this, but am I missing a trick somewhere?  Should previous installed pack content be moved out of the Expansion area first?....



Thanks
Rob  (confused.com)

[fikke]

Yes, you have to make a new file with ALL the packs in it.

After that you put your usb in the Genos and you start to install the new file.

Everything already in the Genos will be deleted, so it is imprtant that you make the new file with all your packs

[trebor1950]

Thanks for the prompt reply.
I thought as much - seems a bit of a 'faff' but hey if that's what's needed then so be it.

Rob

[EileenL]

Yes this has always been the case even with Tyros 5. The reason it formats is so that the memory is wiped and fully clear of fragments therefore has all the space on memory to accept your new pack.
  On Tyros 4 we had to defrag from time to time. This way it saves all that.

[AlBags]

I have yet to find out how to load the Genos Expansion with some packs from YEM AND a 3rd party add-on pack!
I'll let you know how bad it goes.

This is the problem you get when an import to Tyros/Genos wipes/reformats the drive every time!
With fast SSD'd these days, defragging is a minor worry, in fact not recommended at all for some drives.

[StuartR]

I have yet to find out how to load the Genos Expansion with some packs from YEM AND a 3rd party add-on pack!
I'll let you know how bad it goes.

This is the problem you get when an import to Tyros/Genos wipes/reformats the drive every time!
With fast SSD'd these days, defragging is a minor worry, in fact not recommended at all for some drives.

They're formatting memory, not the internal SSD.

[Gunnar Jonny]

I'm a bit confused about add new packs to Genos, because when I added a new pack, YEM formatted the memory again, and installed only the added pack. 
The other packs already installed was deleted. Then I had to mark all packs in YEM to install everything in one operation again.
At T4 I could add one and one new pack while all the already installed still was intact. 
How to just add a new single pack without YEM format and delete all existing contents?

[DerekA]

Someone on another thread suggested you can just add a pack across wifi (not USB).

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,42900.msg338701.html#msg338701

[Gunnar Jonny]

I'm using wifi, not USB.
Maybe use USB as done at T4 solves that issue?
It's not a big problem when know about it, but it's sure more time consuming and not very smooth or up to date.

[AlBags]

Yes, ADD TO with Wi-Fi (No Format)
REPLACE ALL with install USB (Formats)

[EileenL]

Wi- Fi also formats before it starts to load.

[AlBags]

Hi Eileen ..

Some say it doesn't, some say it does, which is it?
There are members insisting it doesn't (meaning you can add-to, rather than over-write)
I'm just about to load some up, so I'll try.

Al. 😊

[Joe H]

Al,

Open YEM and select ALL the packs you wish to load. Then create an Installation file.  It's the only way you can do it.

Joe H

[AlBags]

Hi
Yes, I have no problem with that .. but ..
The others on forum who say they can increment expansion selectively with WI-Go?
You believe them .. or not?


Al 😊👍

[jwyvern]

With Tyros 5 I found the tendency was for WiFi transfer not to include a reformat as routine. But it would happen from time to time if needed. My impression is if a few successive installations or deletions of wave data are of a significant size compared with the total memory available it appears YEM might trigger a format the next time to provide a clean slate for more efficient storage. Unsurprisingly I never found YEM causing a format with my meagre half Gb module on Ty5 when installing voices made from presets, but it did sometimes occur when I had installed and deleted external wave file voices a few times.
On Genos apart from the first format I am not aware of any subsequent formatting so far via WiFi having installed voices made from presets and about 1.4 Gb of wav voices, the latter installed in 1 later session.
John

[valimaties]

I added in a custom pack some of sf2 samples... I did uploaded by wireless (all packs) and did not format memory, only updated with new sf2 converted samples/voices in my pack. So I think the format process it is based on something like custom voices made by importing waves in YEM voice editor (added or deleted from packs) ...

Ohh... I forgot to say... I also added some free packs after that, and it not formated memory, only updated... It updated very fast... only 2 minutes, instead of 10

Regards,
Vali

[AlBags]

Thanks .. So it's unproven, and data may or may not load without formatting then.
There is probably a simple requisite, but until Yamaha state what it is, we may never know for sure!

Al.

I'll fiddle around a bit when I load the few packs, along with a single 'external' standalone pack.

😊👌 

[Joe H]

Thanks .. So it's unproven, and data may or may not load without formatting then.
There is probably a simple requisite, but until Yamaha state what it is, we may never know for sure!

Al.

I'll fiddle around a bit when I load the few packs, along with a single 'external' standalone pack.

It sounds to me like if there is adequate memory, then the additional pack will install,  if the memory is near full or needs defragging, then it will format the memory and you will loose the previous installed packs.

FYI... on the S970, it takes 15 to 20 minutes to install multiple packs that consume the entire 512MB of memory. It's sounds like the loading time on the Genos is somewhat faster.

Joe H

[Gunnar Jonny]

It sounds to me like if there is adequate memory, then the additional pack will install,  if the memory is near full or needs defragging, then it will format the memory and you will loose the previous installed packs......

I've tried 3 options, install only one pack at start, several packs together, then add a single pack. YEM format the memory every time, even if it's not used 25% of the capasity.
So everything you want to install of style/soundpacks into expansion memory has to be marked and install in one go by use of YEM.
It's a bit strange, imagine have to do similiar when add sofware to your PC, HD get formatted and all content has to be reinstalled in one go. 
If this should work as it did at T4 extended memory, you could add one pack at the time without any loss of already installed stuff, I guess Yamaha will fix it in a future update.
Anyway, if this for some reason or another is intended to be like this, it would be interesting to know why. Could it be the type of memory used that has to be 'flashed' in one go?

[jwyvern]

The key to not losing your previous packs is to ensure that all the packs you want to keep are ticked before initiating the transfer, whether by WiFi or USB method. As said above a format is less likely with the WiFi method but whether it happens or not any unticked packs will still be removed according to YEM logic. (Based mainly on Tyros 5, have not spent so much time repeating observations on Genos but it appears to work similarly ).
John

PS. Just an extra point, if you click the Genos icon at top left of YEM before you go to install, the instrument data transfers to YEM and your packs and contents are ticked automatically.

[pjd]

Anyway, if this for some reason or another is intended to be like this, it would be interesting to know why. Could it be the type of memory used that has to be 'flashed' in one go?

Hi GJ --

The expansion NAND flash memory is standard as standard can be. The format-then-write approach has to do with memory management and speedy data access patterns. As other folks have mentioned, Yamaha's current method avoids memory fragmentation -- getting holes of unused memory due to deletions. At some point, the holes all get too small to load another pack and then you'll need to either compact used memory or reformat (accomplishing the same thing). The expansion NAND flash does not have a file system in the usually sense of the term either.

The expansion NAND flash communicates directly with a tone generator integrated circuit (IC) -- one of the reasons why a hard restart/reboot is required.  The NAND flash runs fastest when the samples are laid down sequentially in contiguous memory blocks. This is essential to reliable, high polyphony. This kind of NAND flash does not like skipping about between randomly located blocks.

Hope this explanation helps -- pj

[Gunnar Jonny]

..... Hope this explanation helps -- pj

Tnx to all. 

pj,
yes, this sounds logical.
This is not a very big deal, but I was a bit 'what the h#¤%&' when see all other than last install was gone.
Since I did pass the T5, and was used to T4 where to add any single packs on top was 'normal' I did wonder about it.
Anyway, for me the case is solved, just have to find a cup or two of fresh coffee while files transfer.

[trebor1950]

All very good - But - I seem to have too many Expasion Packs that I want to load using Expansion Mng- It's telling me that Pack install file size = 2916MB with only 2048MB being available - so how do I load all I have and want.  Can the Expansion packs be moved to the Under Carriage USB? (and still work)

Rob

[Joe H]

You will have to create 2 or more Installation files.  You can't exceed the memory limit. Then you will have to load the pack(s) you currently need and load the other pack(s) as you need them.

Another option is to figure out if there are some Voices in each pack that you don't really like or want and delete them thereby reducing the size of the pack(s).  If you really want all packs loaded at the same time... this would be only solution.

Joe H

[trebor1950]

OK - Got it.  It's a shame that the Expansions cant be moved to the under carriage USB and still work.  I did move some to try. moved OK but they don't want to work when selected.

So surely Yamaha need to sort this out as after sales of Expansion Packs will be limiting - well it will be with me. Bit of a pain uploading and downloading to remain within the given parameters. 

Surely there must be a way..........

Rob

[EileenL]

On Genos you have around 1785 memory which will take lots of Yamaha packs because they are compressed in size. Third party packs will probably take more space.
  Because there are so many great voices now on Genos I went through my packs and chose only what I used that were not on the keyboard. Before I had loaded them just because they were there but this seemed pointless so I condensed my packs down. I now have all I want and space left for anything new.