Extremely Disappointed with Genos

[Keyboardist]

DavidB 
I really wish you well and your treatments effective.
I'm going through a different health issue right now and while it certainly hard to be happy about it, we must really try and be very positive in the mind that this will work; not if it works but when I get better !

Sorry the Geno's didn't work out; O well don't sweat the small stuff we know whats important !

Craig "Keyboardist"

[mark fernando]

Hi,

I have PSR s 950 and it is more than enough for my needs. If I need real sound I have soft synths and they sound much better than any arranger keyboard (example - Synthology Ivory II ). The quality of Piano voices have  major role & value in any instrument or workstation. Also as per my knowledge when you want to select a additional PA system piano voice is the main sound to hear before buying any. All other voices will sound good if you get right Piano sound through PA. But as mentioned in above posts we cannot expect natural sound from these digital keyboards.  They never can produce natural sound. Looks like in future professional musicians and studios will go back to old analog technology I can see already Tube amplifies and Vinyl records back in stores.

thanks

Mark

[tyrosman]

what im saying here is if you want a piano buy one all evry one is doing is complaining about the Piano enough said

[EileenL]

Yes I think the new piano's are much improved now and sound great.

[Lee Batchelor]

Agreed about the piano voices, Eileen - to a point. Nord dedicates 1 GB of memory for their piano samples, and they're stellar - far superior to the T5 and possibly Genos (most of us Canadians won't know for another month or so because Yamaha "has their reasons for not delivering to the Canadian market at this time").

Memory is cheap, and the piano is still the anchor voice in any arranger. Yamaha could stick a 1 GB chip in the Genos (for pennies) and blow every other company away with their piano voices and other amazing voices, but doing so may reduce sales of other products. People like me are sick to death of bringing two pianos to major concerts all because the Yamaha marketing people decided to put a lousy piano in the Tyros series. I have yet to comment about the Genos pianos...maybe another month or so.

[travlin-easy]

Lee, I listened to Abby The Pianoman's Another Brick In The Wall and the T3 piano he played was absolutely stellar. I know my hearing is not as good as it was many years ago, but I can assure you that any audience I have performed for would not know the difference between his T3 and a Steinway Grand. Take a listen to http://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,42219.0.html

Gary

[Lee Batchelor]

It does sound good, Gary! Well played too  .

I wonder what the difference would be with the Genos or Nord pianos. A huge step up, I 'd wager. The T3 midrange tones sound "boxy" and slightly out of phase. But you're right - there's that darn hearing thing again (LOL) !!

[jwyvern]

With a new keyboard model there always were passionate and divergent views on the main piano voice. Here is my take on Genos:

Whenever Yamaha promote their latest all singing all dancing fantastic piano on a new arranger (Tyros and Genos) the default setups are to a formula tailored to provide a "piano voice" primarily for mixing well with other RH instruments, or providing block chords with 1 finger, and in providing a ready basis for the interminable saloon, honky tonk, cocktail etc. pianos. Understandably perhaps on that basis there appears to be little effort out of the box to gear it more fully to the playing experience expected by full keyboard pianists. Even so, out of the box the Genos piano is a significant improvement over the old ConcertGrand played 2-handed, but even though I was not expecting CVP performance I was surprised at how held back (otherwise) it sounded. Even the new preset String Resonance DSP did not seem to have much effect on it.

Although little comfort to DavidB, yes it can be improved upon but Yamaha leave it to us, or at least those of us who can be bothered or who willingly or grudgingly rise to a challenge. For Yamaha there seems no motivation for having such a thing as a "proper" piano set up in an arranger, and in any case a lot/most? users probably can't see/hear what all the incessant gripes are about. It's those pesky piano players (I'm included) who keep complaining!

Increase in Low EQ in Voice Set and significant adjustments to the Resonance DSP plus a few tweaks will give improvements, enough to motivate me, because of its overall quality, to play the cfx for relaxation - ie. not too much frustration involved;).

Now for the counter-intuitive bit: 
If you want a piano that has some depth and invades your space with resonance when chording and pedalling then try the old LiveGrand (which has been around since Ty2??). On Genos when EQ and Resonance are adjusted this jumps out as more real to me (having grown up with an upright Grand) and I prefer the overall playing experience to the cfx. So Yamaha had the technology then, why wasn't it exploited on later models? (too busy fussing over SA technology I suspect;))

A further step is you can merge the best of both worlds by layering cfx and LiveGrand (using suitable pans and balances). That way you get the Resonance of LG with the longer notes when sustained, of the cfx (the LG very low notes unfortunately fade quicker) and a blend of their timbres, which is not bad IMO!

Purists may not be reassured by "workarounds" but there is no doubt if you want the best from an arranger you have to put some homework into it, other than just sitting and playing. Although I'm only 2 months in, Genos seems to have the tools and quality samples that generally result in a better response to tweaks than Tyros. 
Incidentally, it's not always about whether an audience notices a difference, (there doesn't have to be one). Sometimes it's more about whether the player has a feel good factor about the instrument's reactions that provides a motivation that comes through in the music.

When more organised I'll post some registrations of these examples in a different thread so others with a genuine interest in 2-handed piano can try them in Genos if they wish.

John

[Bob88]

  A great  post John.  The need  for  a better sounding piano has been  a priority
for  me since my purchase  of a Tyros4 then 5 and now the Genos.  The  remaining instrument voices  keep improving with each new flagship.  I look forward to hearing your registrations.  Thank you.  Bob

[StuartR]

A further step is you can merge the best of both worlds by layering cfx and LiveGrand (using suitable pans and balances).
When more organised I'll post some registrations of these examples in a different thread so others with a genuine interest in 2-handed piano can try them in Genos if they wish.

John

That would be great. Thanks John!

[markstyles]

Having been working with the Genos a good amount more; I am discovering aspects I like and things I question..

I think a big issue is,  is the Genos trying to be too many things to different people?  Personally I  hate all the EDM stuff.  Now a musician 30 years younger than me, will love it.. Problem, for most EDM kids, the keyboards and workstations, are cheaper..  And if some one who would be into hiphop, EDM music will have little to absolutely no use to the older polkas, marches, and other old world, old school, sounds and patches. To me, the Tyros contained 90% styles, instruments, I could find some use for. The Genos comes in at 65% for me..

Of course Technology always marches forward, so some musicians can't afford to get left upstream.. So there is a pressure to keep up..  I did not appreciate the Genos teaser ads, which looked more like they were a perfume ad, than actually show exactly what it would and would not do to fancy looking with no real 'meat' in the ad. The new designer bragging about how much research he did has to me ADD.  The instrument is just too eclectic with no real depth in any one area. 

I'm not sure if it's something I haven't discovered yet, but when I change a patch, all arpeggio info disappears. perhaps I need to create registrations, so I don't loose continuity (just thought of that)

Several Accordians just too much out of tune to be of use to me.. I thought I would love the TouchScreen, (I have other kids with them, and always liked them), instead I find it aggravating to have to go levels in to get to the command I want, instead of instantly with the Tyros  I have USB sticks, with a substantial amount of styles. If I pick a style, nested two folders in.. Once I exit that folder, If I haven't written down the path, instead of leaving the last open folder highlighted, it becomes blank, making it a tedious task to find that particular style again.

At 69 years of age, maybe I am just losing touch.. In reality, I have been moving away from 'arranger' music..  I am much more in creating independent music lines, with more instruments, so I am becoming less of a 'kbd arranger' kbd.  Although I still find them invaluable as a compositional tool.  Compositional DAW applications for the most part, can't even get near what Tyros, and Genes can do.

So yes, Yamaha is trying to reach a younger fan base, so us oldsters are dying off, or being priced out of the buying market..

I wished I could have done more research on Genes, before I bought it, I might  have not.. Of course because of its price, no store in NYC will put one on sales floor. You have to buy it site/sound unseen.   I was forced to buy Tyros 3 - 5 that way, but each version moved in exactly the the direction I was very interested in.

There is NOTHING WRONG with Genos, it's just on closer examination. it is not exactly the instrument I was hoping it would be..  I also hate they fact they decided that brighter and tinnier sound over soaked in reverb (to sound more like the compettion) is the opposite of what I

Lest people think I am just old, grumpy, and angry, (which I am sometimes) I have sent off a few emails, to the developers.. Of course I am only one user, and probably not the kind of user, Yamaha is particularly anxious to hold on to.

[whataguy]

Is it safe to assume that you fellas would dump your Genos to get a T5 again? Weeeellllll, I got a T5, stand, speakers and about a million styles (probably some y'alls too) on flash drives. Plus there are very very few bad notes left as I have used them all up. How many $ plus my T5 would it take to make us all happy. I can't play worth a **** and would enjoy not being able to play worth  a **** with a Genos. I'm so much of a music snob I would love to be able to say 'I have the latest and I can't even play, so there'.  Trade ya! Don in MI

[mcbrown]

Don, now there's a challenge for the regretful Genos owners who sold their T5.

Oh, and yes, I love my Genos.

Murray

[whataguy]

Hi, not only do I envy you having a Genos, WARM weather, and that list of instruments (are they haves or have hads?) you list, you have the AUSTRALIAN OPEN going on. I love playing tennis as much as playing kbds even though I suck at both. Being old is no excuse, I sucked at both when I was 50-60 years younger. Isn't being alive fun? Don in MI

[Lee Batchelor]

Having been a faithful Tyros owner (3 of them), I have never heard so much negative publicity about a Yamaha successor keyboard! Is it possible Yamaha hired some idiots from Microsoft, and those idiots were turned loose inside Yamaha and soured the milk? Microsoft has a gift for producing the world's worst crapola. Surely, Yamaha isn't following a broken corporate model.

Then again, perhaps Yamaha hired a whole bunch of new blood that have no idea what the hell they're doing. Sure, they can design and build a great keyboard, but have they totally lost their market focus? I can see phasing out the older players for new, but to drop us off the bridge in one instant is corporate suicide. The Tyros and PSR series were 80 percent musical instruments driven by 20 percent computer technology. It sounds to me like Genos is a 80 percent "broken computer" with 20 percent musicality. That's an exaggeration, but one must wonder, "What went wrong?" This whole Genos thing has been one bumpy road after another since the pathetic release videos and now, huge numbers of software disappointments. Am I generalizing? Perhaps, but try telling that to the increasingly number of disappointed people who just blew thousands of their country's currency.

Wow, this is really mind boggling. All along, I've complained that we Canadians are last to receive this dream machine. Sounds like we're the lucky ones because the Genos, while sounding pretty good, in reality could be a nightmare. Did the value of my used Tyros 5 just increase 30 percent ? Paint me skeptical about the Genos.

[travlin-easy]

Adrian, unfortunately, when wearing a hearing aid, the keyboard will never sound a good as it did when your hearing was not impaired. Hearing aids set up for men tend to amplify high frequency sounds, mainly because that is the sound we, as males, tend to loose with aging and hearing damage from loud noises. Women tend to loose the low frequency sounds for the same reasons. My wife says God intended for this to happen so I can ignore her when she's backseat driving the car and she can ignore me for the same reasons.

Many years ago, I purchased a hearing aid because I could not understand individual voices when I was in a crowd of people, many of whom were talking at the same time. The hearing aid solved that problem, but when I wore it while performing with my keyboard, it amplified the high sounds, and blocked out the mid and low frequency sounds. I stopped using it the following day and never looked back. My best advice: Buy some ear buds, then you can set the volume where it sounds best to you without any outside interference.

Good luck,

Gary 

[Robert van Weersch]

Is it possible Yamaha hired some idiots from Microsoft, and those idiots were turned loose inside Yamaha and soured the milk? Microsoft has a gift for producing the world's worst crapola.

Why drag Microsoft in this discussion with unsubstantiated claims and a poor choice of words? Please, we're not 15 anymore...

[Gunnar Jonny]

.... Please, we're not 15 anymore...

As you grow older you will find that you may be young at heart ......

[mcbrown]

Don in MI,
The "have hads" have been removed and the list is what I currently have.

I'm just in the process of purchasing a Cole Clark Fat Lady 3 acoustic guitar which will hopefully be the last purchase for a while.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvBPrvW3b00

Murray

[whataguy]

WOW!Up to now, Drake was 'DaMan' but you've passed him. As they say somewhere 'good on ya'. I envy the hell out of you as I struggle through what little I am able to accomplish on the T5. Maybe I should take up, uh, just listening. Don in MI

[Will49]

I think a big issue is, the Genos trying to be too many things to different people?  Personally I hate all the EDM stuff. 
So yes, Yamaha is trying to reach a younger fan base, so us oldsters are dying off,
At 69 years of age, maybe I am just losing touch..

That's the exact feeling I got when I had the first ever glimpse of Genos in one of the first video demos - by Martin Harris, I think. When I saw that his left hand was more occupied on the sliders and knobs than it was actually playing the keys, I remember thinking: "Goodbye arrangers... welcome to synth land"! I turned 69 last week, so maybe I'm losing touch as well!

And as for this whole thread in general, I'm amazed at how much it's turned into a discussion about piano voices and speakers/PA systems etc., etc., especially as there was much more than that to DavidB's displeasure about the Genos in his opening post. I'm also surprised that I'm the only one to have complimented him on his choice of instrument (the Roland AT-800 organ) when he announcement (Reply #86) that he had just acquired such a magnificent instrument! Makes me think that those who come from an electronic organ background (like myself) are a bit thin on the ground here. Heck, am I THAT old? Hmm, like I said earlier, I was 69 last week so maybe that explains it then!!!

Regards,

Will
To David B: If you still pop in here from time to time, and if you come across this... I hope you are still very happy with the AT-800. And, even more importantly, hope that you are also continuing to respond well to your cancer treatment.

[Lee Batchelor]

If it makes you feel any better, Will, I'm 65 soon and cut my teeth on a Lowery Holiday organ back in 1962 .

[travlin-easy]

Wow! 69 - sue wish I were 69 again. I was in great physical condition then, good ogled by the ladies a lot, my hair was medium brown, and I was playing 7 days a week plus some night jobs to boot. Never thought those days would end, but at age 76, last year, I had to retire because of poor health issues. Yep, right now, 69 seems very young to me.

Good luck,

Gary

[DavidB]

To David B: If you still pop in here from time to time, and if you come across this... I hope you are still very happy with the AT-800. And, even more importantly, hope that you are also continuing to respond well to your cancer treatment.

Thank you Will. My treatment starts for real tomorrow, so I guess it's the big day but I have to admit to being more than a little bothered by what side effects I might suffer. Still, a little discomfort to attempt to beat and evil disease will be worth it I hope.

As for the Atelier, I absolutely love it. It is totally focused on the kind of music I want to play and the sound quality, particularly of some of the SA voices (Yep, Roland have them too) is wonderful. I was playing it the other evening, and I suddenly realised I wasn't hitting as many bum notes on the Roland, when I remembered an article I read about how Roland stick to the tried, tested and proven 165mm per octave and Yamaha have reduced their keyboards to 160mm. It seems for my fat fingers, that 5mm makes all the difference.

Anyway, I don't want to bash the Yamaha's, if you're happy with yours then I really am delighted for you. Mine Genos is still for sale, and for me I made absolutely the right decision getting the Atelier.

Thanks again for asking after me Will,

David.

[pjd]

My treatment starts for real tomorrow, ...

Good luck, David!

-- pj

[stephenm52]

David, Wishing you the best with your treatments, Godspeed!

[Will49]

If it makes you feel any better, Will, I'm 65 soon and cut my teeth on a Lowery Holiday organ back in 1962 .

Hi Lee, Even though you're a few years younger than me, having started in 1962, you are many years ahead of me in this game as I didn't get into it until the early 70s. In those days, live organ music in pubs was quite popular, and the one I used to go to almost every Saturday night had a horseshoe Lowrey spinet... can't remember which model it was though, but it certainly got me very interested!

Wow! 69 - sue wish I were 69 again. I was in great physical condition then, good ogled by the ladies a lot, my hair was medium brown, and I was playing 7 days a week plus some night jobs to boot. Never thought those days would end, but at age 76, last year, I had to retire because of poor health issues. Yep, right now, 69 seems very young to me.

Good luck,

Gary

Thanks Gary. So far, I also consider myself very fortunate to be in pretty good shape: Height 6ft 1in; Weight: 70.3 kg; BMI: 20.4; Restring HR: 48 (see link to a recent photo below). I walk (briskly) 40 to 45 miles per week, and one of my other hobbies is cycling (road, not MTB). According to one study on fit cyclists, it was found that several in the 55 to 79 age category who cycled regularly were physically and biologically much younger than most people of the same age – up to about 10 years younger in some cases! But unlike you when you were 69, I can't say I've noticed being ogled by the opposite ***, ha-ha!! But those who meet me for the first time are usually quite surprised when I tell them my age... I also have a wife who is almost 12 years my junior!

But to steer back to keyboards and music. None of the above will make me appear any younger where my musical tastes are concerned, as it's very much Ballroom, Country, light/gentle Jazz, Latin and anything of the 'easy listening' genre I'm afraid. I daresay, therefore, that I'm still a bit of a dinosaur to the youngsters who want tons of EDM/Techno and the like!
http://will49.zenfolio.com/img/s/v-3/p2714937939.jpg

Kind regards,
Will

[Will49]

Thank you Will. My treatment starts for real tomorrow, so I guess it's the big day but I have to admit to being more than a little bothered by what side effects I might suffer. Still, a little discomfort to attempt to beat and evil disease will be worth it I hope. Thanks again for asking after me Will

Hello David. No problem at all; I've often been wondering how things are with you. I wish you all the very best with your treatment, and hope that none of the possible side effects will be too troublesome!

I was very pleased to read that you are very happy with the Atelier. It's a beautiful instrument; I've watched several YouTube videos of Hector Olivera on the Atelier organs... amazing stuff! All the best for now; please keep us posted.

Kind regards,
Will

[MINKYCATS]

Hi David,

We have communicated by PM concerning the Genos and I did wish you well at that point. But I hope and pray that your treatment will be totally successful and that any side effects will be minimal.

As regards the Atelier, I am so pleased that you are enjoying it. It is my kind of instrument and I have a Yamaha AR100 which is of a similar ilk to your Atelier. I wish you many happy years playing it.

I played at a Bingo Hall (Regal, Darlaston) at weekends from 1973 to 1994 and enjoyed playing a Hammond C3 there. But, unfortunately, the demise of the home organ had begun by 1994.

I play the same genres of music as Will and some light classical music and still prefer the organ to the keyboard and I really should play my AR100 more but poor health in the form of a mini stroke a couple of years ago. I am 76 and until then was quite active but I find it difficult to play for long periods without some discomfort afterwards.

As others have said, I hope you will drop in on these forums. I don't think that you have to own a Yamaha or any other make of  instrument to be a member and you can be sure of a welcome from everyone.

Kindest regards

Trevor

[Will49]

I played at a Bingo Hall (Regal, Darlaston) at weekends from 1973 to 1994 and enjoyed playing a Hammond C3 there. But, unfortunately, the demise of the home organ had begun by 1994.

Hello Trevor, That was indeed a very sad time. I remember drooling over a Yamaha EL90 in a music store in Swindon when they first appeared here in the UK... must have been around 1991. Sadly though, I think its price tag was around £10,000... which was more than double the cost of the most expensive organ I've ever had (a Kawai DX-900) eight years earlier in 1983!

Physically, my current keyboard, the Tyros 5/76, is the largest I've ever owned (size and weight is if no consequence to me as a home player) but without an upper and lower manual, a bass pedalboard, and all housed in an elegant cabinet like your Yamaha AR-100 and DavidB's Roland Atelier AT-800, it's still a keyboard... NOT an organ! Having said that though, as keyboards go, it's the best sounding one I've had to date - I love the Ensemble feature and, of course, the Organ World! And with its size and tit up screen etc., it's certainly the most impressive looking one I've ever had as well. In fact, I'm not sure now where I might go from here because I'm afraid that the Genos does nothing at all to impress me in terms of looks when compared to a T5/76, so I don't see me changing it any time soon! I apologise to all of you proud Genos owners out there for having said that... perhaps it's just my rather old-fashioned way of looking at these things!

Kind regards,

Will
P.S. Sorry to see that you suffered a mini stroke a couple of years ago, Trevor, but it's good to see that you are still able to play your keyboard and your AR-100... albeit for short periods at a time. I obviously don't know exactly how the mini stroke has affected you, but perhaps regular intervals at the keyboard and the AT-100 might be beneficial by way of post-stroke physiotherapy? So try to stick at it as much as you can... unless your doctor tells you otherwise obviously!