Extremely Disappointed with Genos

[DavidB]

I think I mentioned on another thread that some months ago I was all set to sell my Clavinova 709 and Tyros 4 and replace them with a Roland Atelier home organ. It felt like a natural progression to me to want to learn to play more including the pedals, and rely less on auto functions although of course many exist on the Atelier. Also although being 8 or 9 year old technology the Atelier voices are pretty incredible.

I was all set to press the button on an Atelier when I was given the news that I should think of the rest of my life in terms of months. In addition, at this time, the first Genos demo's appeared and I found myself being drawn to what seemed to be amazing realism. I decided it was not fair to spend the money on an Atelier and leave my wife with the problem of selling it on should I die, and being swayed by the latest and greatest from Yamaha decided to get the Genos.

I still sold my CVP and Part Exed the Tyros 4 but now the real crunch... Having had the Genos for appox. 2 months I can quite honestly say I have never been so disappointed with a musical instrument purchase in my life. It is absolutely not worth what Yamaha are charging for it and the instrument realism, bar a very few voices, leaves very much to be desired.

The pianos sound nothing like the instruments they're named after. There is absolutely no depth to them whatsoever and the same can be said for many more of the instruments. My Tyros 4 had more realistic sounding pianos and organs.

I'm 56 years old by the way, apparently the typical Genos customer. I like to play pure piano, church music, easy listening, big band, swing and pop music and purely for my own entertainment. There are insufficient styles and variations on the Genos for chosen genres and many that do exist are simply updated versions of Tyros 2, 3, 4 and 5 styles that have been around for years.

Black was the worst colour Yamaha could have picked. They should call it dust catcher black because collecting dust is all that matt black finish is any good for.

I had some good news last week, it seems the treatment for my cancer could extend my life to years rather than just months.

I can judge the relevance, quality and many aspects of a musical instrument in my house by how keen I am to play it and despite much experimentation, playing with settings, adjusting equalisers and compressors etc etc. I am not keen to play the Genos. I don't want live controls or to play any sort of synthesised music. I just wanted the best home keyboard money could buy and the Genos absolutely isn't it - for me. Yamaha ought to be sued for daring to suggest the pianos are CFX or even close.

I dare say I could spend another thousand pounds or so on a better speaker set up but why should I have to? I have the speaker set Yamaha make for the keyboard and so I don't think I'm being unreasonable expecting the instruments to sound and behave as described.

OK, I guess that's what I wanted to say... each to their own of course - I fully understand that but I gave Genos more than a fair chance and it has only disappointed me. I feel as though I bought an over priced toy keyboard.

If anyone in the UK would like to buy one, as good as brand new, I'm sure we could discuss a sensible price

All the best everyone (and a belated Merry Christmas).

[MBedesem]

David:

My recent experience:

Last year, my wife gave up on my not understanding what she was saying unless she was directly in front of me, and, so encouraged, I went to the hearing doctor.

Old age, a lifetime of overloading the ears with loud(and ever louder) music, construction tools (we rebuild 15 older houses, etc had done it's work. I ended up with devices in both ears that used amplification and, I suspect, some frequency shifting, to make it easier to converse.

But my T5 sounds terrible. So tinny that I avoid playing.

Then one day I took off my hearing aids. The old Tyros 5 was back.

I should play around with EQ and cmp settings to see if I can improve it with the hearing aids installed, but have not found the time.

Regards,

Michael

[Del]

Hi David
That is a shame that you are dissappointed in your Genos I hope you find a keyboard that suites your needs.
I am also pleased that the treatment you are receiving will extend your life to years rather than months, I have not forgotten about you since we last communicated.
Best Regards - Del

[Lee Batchelor]

David, sorry to hear about your medical situation. Glad to hear of the encouraging news though !

I had some good news last week, it seems the treatment for my cancer could extend my life to years rather than just months.

I agree with Michael, in that there are several variables to consider when talking about hearing perception. I too spent 25 years playing in loud bands and working in a semi-loud environment. Add to that the natural frequency loss associated with age, and it makes for a terrible mix. I believe someone mentioned that the Genos factory settings are basically flat and bland. It's up to the individual to make enhancements based on the acoustic environment, speakers, ambient noise, and ones own sound perception. Have you tried making some adjustments?

I feel your pain about the piano voices. While there are dozens of other really good instrument samples, I agree that the primary anchor voices must consist of about six really good piano voices. I thought the T5 piano voices were fantastic until I auditioned (and ultimately bought) a Nord Electro 5D. In comparison, Yamaha is a rank amateur. I hope the Genos pianos measure up to the Nord. If not, it's unlikely I'll buy the Genos, despite its massive improvement in other areas.

The Genos operating system frightens me a wee bit too, in that it they've changed so much. Over the past 30 years we've all endured software engineers and their so-called "enhancements." Here's my definition of the average idiotic engineer's software enhancement: "Add new features that nobody likes, wants, or even cares about. At the same time be sure to remove EVERYTHING that people got used to and that worked perfectly well before some idiot decided to 'improve' the software." But I digress way off topic...apologies.

Tinker with the Genos plumbing and see if you can make it sound good in the room where you play. All the best. We're all cheering for you...!

[Keyboardist]

Hi David
I guess the Geno's isn't for everyone,too bad you did care for it like some.
Perhaps selling it and getting a Tyros 5 instead wouldn't be a bad idea or go back to the Ty4.
I'm sure someone out there would like a good deal on a 2 month old Genos or perhaps a trade plus extra to get it.

[vanray]

Dont think me rude david b
but its your state of mind thats been adjusted, and its not surprising
considering the "cancer card" that life dealt you.

with whats going on with your health, at present, you might find that
"nothing"  could be a good enough distraction , from whats going on in your sub-concious.

i too have been dealt a few ugly cards in my life, and a promise from the doctors
that theres hope on the horizon , is not enough ,
things like this,can effect everything in your life, so dont be too hard on yourself.

you may be projecting your feelings about yourself, onto objects .
take care my friend .

[keynote]

I am truly sorry to hear of your disappointment in the Genos David although I am extremely happy that your cancer prognosis has improved.  As far as the CFX piano on the Genos you have to remember it is a multi-sampled piano so it is natural for it to sound different than a real Yamaha CFX Grand Piano. Yamaha records the sound of a real CFX Grand Piano and they try to do so as best as they can but something is always lost in the translation so to speak. A real CFX Grand Piano costs $180,000 (£134,789) and we all know the price of the Genos so unless you want to spend that kind of money the Genos is a great alternative in my opinion. As Michael Bedesem said hearing aids could be the culprit. Settings also play a role and EQ can play a significant role in getting the sound you want or at least better than you're experiencing now.

The black color does reveal dust accumulation more so than a silver color would that's for sure. The remedy in that situation is to clean the Genos with a soft cloth occasionally and if possible play the Genos in a dust free environment which may be more difficult than it sounds. As far as the styles go you can purchase additional styles on the www.yamahamusicsoft.com website and choose the styles that you prefer. There are also free third party styles from other Yamaha arranger users that might appeal to you also. If you are still unsatisfied then by all means sell it and get something you will really enjoy.

Mike

[valimaties]

Hi David.

I'm a little bit disappointed too about Genos, but, really, to get back my Tyros 5?! No way.
I will wait for firmware update, and till then I will work with workarounds, even this is not a professional way!

I'll live with hope that Yamaha will solve all important bugs quickly, even misses some functions from Tyros series, which were not implemented.

Regards,
Vali!

[DavidB]

Thank you for all the comments and I've not taken any personally. I think there is some truth and reality in the suggestion that currently my cancer and life are foremost on my mind, but not entirely.

My CVP709 had both a sampled CFX and a Bosendorfer Piano and so it is not Yamaha's sampling that I am criticising but rather their own reproduction of the samples. On the CVP, which I admit had a decent sound board and better speakers, the pianos, organs and all other instruments had real depth to their sound. The CFX piano which was clearly sampled at least octave by octave if not note by note was beautifully deep in the lower ranges - which is exactly how a CFX really is. The Genos, can't even scratch the surface in comparison. It is flat, dead and completely lacking in any depth whatsoever - no matter what equaliser, compressor or any other settings I have tried. I'm sorry, but it is a thoroughly underwhelming piano sound that I would expect from a $99 keyboard but not the Genos. These statements, in my opinion of course, are true of many of the other voices although they are most noticeable on the piano's.

Could it be improved? How does it sound through a PA system? I imagine the answer is yes it can be improved and it sounds much fuller through a good PA. My point though is that I bought this with the Yamaha supplied and recommended speakers which at the price they are, on top of the keyboard, should be showing the sounds off to their optimum quality. I could spend a few more thousand experimenting with speakers until I find the right combination for my room but why should I have to?

Yamaha charge as much for the Genos as they did for the CVP709 when it first came out and the yet the performance is a million miles apart. That is fundamentally wrong and the source of my disappointment.

Yes, I could buy another CVP except there were shortcomings on that (not the sound), which is why I sold it...

Sorry to repeat much, but I wanted to try to get the message across as to what really disappoints me.

Thanks again all.

[travlin-easy]

Sorry to hear that you contracted cancer, though the good news is it seems to be responding to treatment.

Now, lets look at at the Genos sound. Unfortunately, I have not had the opportunity to hear one live and in person at this point, but will this coming spring when a friend arrives for a visit with his. From what I have been told by at least a dozen pro entertainers, the sounds coming from the Genos are the absolute best they have heard from any arranger keyboard on the planet. I respect their assessments - they are pro entertainers and have been in the musical entertainment business for decades.

Now, the Genos does not have onboard speakers, therefore you must connect it to a quality sound system in order to hear what it has to offer. Additionally, everyone hears things differently, therefore, I suggest connecting a high quality headset to the keyboard and listening with them.

Next, adjust the global EQ system, and from what I have read, there are several presets onboard that do an excellent job. All of these are important factors with ANY arranger keyboard. If you want that depth you talked about, you will have to make the EQ adjustments. I have heard Michael Vonkin play the Genos grand piano and it sounded superior to many that I have heard in the past.

As for hearing aids, in reality, it is very difficult to use them while playing and performing. They tend to amplify high frequencies and block any other frequencies from your hearing range. Consequently, you will not hear the mids and lows to the same extent as the higher frequencies, thus making the keyboard sound tinny.

Hope this helps solve your dilemma,

Gary

[DavidB]

Hi Gary,

Sorry, but I can't help but read your reply just a little dismissively... so....

Just because I don't get paid for playing music doesn't mean there's anything wrong with my ears or that I am in any way incapable of making a 'professional' assessment of an instrument. It just means I don't get paid, and of course you don't have to respect my opinion - but it is just as valid as your 'pro' mates and certainly significantly more valid than yours. When you've owned and played one for 2 or more months, providing you're not in denial because you spent so much money, then you will have a valid opinion.

I too was blown away by the quality of some of the voices on the Genos, and still am. The flugelhorn has to be heard to be believed. There are also others, but as you get used to the keyboard, as with all things in life, you start to realise where it is lacking and that's what I'm talking about - not where it is fantastic. I personally find the thoroughly underwhelming pianos so bad that every other instrument could be amazing (it isn't) and I'd still be disappointed.

Sorry, but absolutely nowhere in any blurb or technical materials do Yamaha suggest the Genos has to be connected to anything other that their very own speaker system. No where do they inform you that you will hear any instrument at any less than it's optimal sound unless you spend thousands on additional audio equipment.

Pedantic? Sure, but then so was your answer.

I already told you I've tried many different settings. Can't think of one I haven't tried and yet the pianos especially still sound nothing like their name on any settings.

I never mentioned hearing aids.

Hope that helps clear things up for you.

[zionip]

Hi Dave,

I also use the Yamaha GNS-MS01 2.1 speaker system with Genos.  I was sort of disappointed by its sound quality at first.

However, after participating in the discussion thread about the compressor on Genos, I tweaked the Master Compressor output and the GNS-MS01 sounds a lot louder and richer, almost feels like a new system to me.  Here is my detailed comment on the Master Compressor of Genos:
http://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,41795.msg329890.html#msg329890

The CFX Grand Piano sounds on CVP-709 are voice type VRM (Virtual Resonance Modelling), definitely better and more realistic than the S.Art! voice type of CFX ConcertGrand on Genos.

The default effect of CFX ConcertGrand on Genos is "Damper Resonance", which sounds a bit dry and unimpressive.  I changed it to category "Reverb" with type "Hall1", and it sounds a lot richer to me.

The built-in speaker system of CVP-709 is a lot higher in specifications than the 2.1 speaker system of Genos.

Thanks,
Paul

[stephenm52]

HI Dave,

First and foremost I'm happy to hear that your health issue has improved and treatment is going to give you a longer life.   I was trained on piano but have shifted to arrangers because they are more fun and make a lot more music playing a gig than simply soloing on piano.   Sorry to hear you're unhappy with the Genos in my case I'm loving the Genos.

I know decisions are now water over the dam but if I were playing piano for my own entertainment and not gigging  I would not sell my Clavinova CVP 307 to make room for a T5, Genos or s9xx line of arrangers.   Genos has lots of great voices but the piano in my opinion isn't as great as I would like it to sound and in no way can it replace the sound of the pianos on the CVP line of Clavinovas.   Wishing you the best.

[pjd]

I think I mentioned on another thread that some months ago I was all set to sell my Clavinova 709 and Tyros 4 and replace them with a Roland Atelier home organ.

I had some good news last week, it seems the treatment for my cancer could extend my life to years rather than just months.

Hi David --

Thanks goodness that the treatment is working. We all want to channel good vibes and wishes your way!

Taking your comments in total, it sounds like acoustic piano and the experience of playing an acoustic piano is very important to you. Having rung out a CVP-709 on trial, Yamaha truly provide an excellent "piano experience" with that product. It's beautiful and I remember playing with my eyes-closed thinking, "Wow, I can't tell that I'm behind a digital piano." As Paul mentioned, the CVP-709 includes VRM and includes all of the attention to detail in a flagship model that one expects from Yamaha. The CVP flagship leads the fleet of digital pianos, however, not arranger workstations.

I do love the Genos, but my requirements are rather broad and acoustic piano is not very high on my list of needs. That said, if someone asked for my thoughts, and that someone had "piano" at the top of their list and felt very strongly about that, I would suggest the CVP over Genos.

I hope these observations are helpful -- pj

[Lee Batchelor]

David's thread has begat another topic - "How good are the new piano voices on the Genos?"

It's probably unfair and totally unrealistic to compare the CVP pianos to any arranger because the CVP model is a dedicated piano in many ways. The question for me is, are the Genos pianos far better, somewhat better, or about the same as the T5 pianos? For me, this is a deal breaker. CVP or not, I refuse to give Yamaha another dime if they're going to jerk me around with yet more crappy and disappointing pianos that were supposed to be improved from the T4 to T5. (The T5 pianos were better but not a whole lot!) I certainly don't expect them to rival their CVP, CP4, or other TOTL piano voices, but for $6,000, they better be DARN good - at the very least a huge jump from the T5!!

Hopefully, I've stayed on topic...

[tangothomas]

David!

I am surprised to read that the Genos cost almost the same as the CVP 709.

I have a CVP 709 and it is much more expensive than a Genos.

[Fred Smith]

I refuse to give Yamaha another dime if they're going to jerk me around with yet more crappy and disappointing pianos that were supposed to be improved from the T4 to T5. (The T5 pianos were better but not a whole lot!) I certainly don't expect them to rival their CVP, CP4, or other TOTL piano voices, but for $6,000, they better be DARN good - at the very least a huge jump from the T5!!

My experience, Lee, is the piano voices are better, but not a huge improvement, from the T4, let alone the T5. Don't set yourself up for disappointment.

Fred

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks Fred! I'll be able to learn about the piano voices just as soon as Yamaha stops "dribbling" the odd Genos into our tiny little country and decides we're worthy of a few more keyboards.

Like I said in an earlier post, by the time we get the steady supply we deserve, most of the forum members will be trying to figure out how to safely remove a 1 inch dust layer from the dull-black Genos finishes.

[keynote]

Here is an example of the CFX concert grand piano I recorded using my Genos to my computer for what it's worth. The song is called "Silver Bells" an appropriate song for the holiday season. Please feel free to download and listen to it.  It was recorded as a .wav file and then I converted it to an .mp3 file. As you know .mp3 files are compressed audio so the quality will not be as good as the original .wav file which is uncompressed audio. As such I still find the sound is very acceptable for a keyboard. Enjoy!

Silver Bells

Mike

[Fred Smith]

Here is an example of the CFX concert grand piano I recorded using my Genos to my computer for what it's worth. The song is called "Silver Bells" an appropriate song for the holiday season. Please feel free to download and listen to it.  It was recorded as a .wav file and then I converted it to an .mp3 file. As you know .mp3 files are compressed audio so the quality will not be as good as the original .wav file which is uncompressed audio. As such I still find the sound is very acceptable for a keyboard.

Mike,

Very nice. Certainly a better piano sound than I remember from my Genos, even on my tinny iPad. I'm away from my Genos right now, but when I get back, I'll have to find out what settings you used to get such a nice sound.

Fred

[Lee Batchelor]

Agreed, Fred. Great playing too!!

Hope my Genos sounds that good. I'm sure there are plenty of EQ settings to adjust the piano to the right genre. Thanks Keynote!!

[zionip]

Here is an example of the CFX concert grand piano I recorded using my Genos to my computer for what it's worth. The song is called "Silver Bells" an appropriate song for the holiday season. Please feel free to download and listen to it.  It was recorded as a .wav file and then I converted it to an .mp3 file. As you know .mp3 files are compressed audio so the quality will not be as good as the original .wav file which is uncompressed audio. As such I still find the sound is very acceptable for a keyboard. Enjoy!

Silver Bells

Mike

Hi Mike,

Beautiful piano performance on a Genos!

Thanks,
Paul

[manuel]

A great CFX Piano sounding Demo....
Excellent, love your harmony and playing style.

Manuel

[DavidB]

David!

I am surprised to read that the Genos cost almost the same as the CVP 709.

I have a CVP 709 and it is much more expensive than a Genos.

Today, yes, they are more expensive. When I bought my 709 is was £4,300.00.

Regards,

[DavidB]

Nice demo Mike, thanks.

What a recorded piano sounds like is not the source of my disappointment. I've said all along that using the line outs, better speakers etc etc would no doubt improve matters, as would recordings which can then be manipulated through the computer or listening device you're using. Few of us listen to music flat, because it often sounds dull and uneventful and as others have alluded to, ears and hearing change with age.

Maybe I am just too fussy, but if I buy a supposed top of the line keyboard with it's own dedicated speaker set and I choose an instrument named CFX Grand Piano... then a CFX Grand Piano is what I expect to hear. As I've said a number of times, Genos isn't even close. I would go further and say with it's complete lack of substance and body in the lower ranges, it's not even a good piano. It's not realistic at all.

Anyway, I've probably flogged this one to death... each to their own as I said right at the start.

Genos is not for me.

Best wishes all.

[DavidB]

A great CFX Piano sounding Demo....
Excellent, love your harmony and playing style.

Manuel

It was a very good demo by Mike but I can assure you the piano sound was absolutely nothing like a CFX piano or in fact any real piano. Listen to a CFX in real life and you will be moved by the brilliance and variety of the tone, not to mention the depth and power of the lower notes. All I'm afraid still missing from Mikes demo - which I would love to hear on a real CFX.

[vanray]

David b
it looks like you've arrived at "Checkmate"
you've burnt your bridges, so how are you gonna get across,
to all your musical dreams and wishes ?

Is there a better arranger than the Yamaha-Genos ?
I very much doubt it.

With 2018 arriving in a few days, How are you Gonna move on?

[Lee Batchelor]

David, imagine if the Genos piano sounded exactly like the CFX? Genos sales would skyrocket, while real CFX sales would plummet . The next huge challenge would be in mimicking the weighted key action - something no company has even come close to as of yet. The electronic pianos are so fatiguing on the wrists compared to the real pianos.

Best of luck in your search.

[travlin-easy]

David, I guess your next step would be to see if you can return the Genos and get a full refund, failing that sell it!

Gary

[markstyles]

I am also not exactly thrilled with the Genos either... But not enough to return it.  (restocking fee) etc.. Yamaha engineers must have re-EQ'd their workshop speaker set-up.. Brighter is not necessarily better.  Also bathing so many patches in a mediocre reverb, on the Genes doesn't help.. This of course, is a matter of personal preference. 

In a complex music mix, if you brighten too many instruments, you affect the overall mix, to the point, where you have a sonic mess.  The proper procedure is to EQ some of the instrument's low and mid low with notch filtering out..  It sounds to me, Yamaha added a tinge of brightness to many of the instruments..  And once you've got to many instruments, brighter than normal, you've painted yourself into a corner.  Yes, to many of us 'oldsters', who've lost high end it sounds better.  But to others, it creates an instrument too 'colored'. 

I prefer "SOME" of the T5 sounds to the Genos.. They sound more solid.  With the T5, I very rarely touched EQ on individual instruments.. I am still adjusting my hearing 'point of view' for the Genos.  It only a subtle change, but one I hear on my studio Genelec 8040 speakers. 

I am somewhat disappointed with all the electric guitar sounds..  Again they all seem to have a strange EQ (and too much reverb)..

I have had other keyboards with touchscreen and do generally prefer them.. But I miss the  ability to instantly change something, with the over one hundred buttons the Tyros.. In both Tyros and Genos, the very stingy amount 'user' midi set-ups, and DSP effects, is disappointing.

I love the ability of the Genos to string together more DSP effects, but I'd want a lot more user spots to save those.  That is just plain wrong.

Unlike the vast majority of users here, I have used the Tyros and Genos, as a studio and compositional tool.  I didn't use it as a 'one man band' witch was obviously Tyros's purpose.

To me, Yamaha engineers, tried to bring the Genes in line with Korg and Roland .  I have absolutely no interest in EDM music, and the brash sounds of it. So in Yamaha's decision to add some of that factor.. So all those styles and instrument patches are a total 'wasteland' to me. I do have a sizable amount of 'virtual instruments', Kontakt and UVI libraries, so it's not a major inconvenience to me.. But to many their Genes, or Tyros, may be the only instrument they use.   I realize Yamaha is really trying to create a 'one instrument fits all'.  And that is a noble attempt.. And on some level the Genos does that.

I suppose Yamaha into account the 'dying out' of the older population.  The 'target' audience, for music from the 40's - 50's,  is dwindling or too hard of hearing to appreciate music anymore, and Genos is trying to repurpose themselves for a younger audience.  And let's face it, Yamaha is in the business of making $$$$.  To continue along the Tyros line, with it's user base, dying out, or stop making music is not good business sense

In one way, I suppose this will make the Tyros line something to be cherished, and users can continue to cherish it as a very viable instrument to have.. Just like a few drum machines, and synths, from the 80's were discontinued, yet user demand, had them re-incarnated.. The kbd arranger is certainly not as popular in the US as in other parts of the world, so it is impossible for me to understand the workings of world wide sales.

This could create a situation where the Tyros line will stand on it's own, and possibly continue to be a desired instrument. But eventually Yamaha will stop carrying parts, and maintaining it. 

I am very upset with Apple, whose policy is to drop stocking and repairing their older computers.  In 2015, I was bluntly told by Apple they don't carry parts, and would not repair my 2008 top of the line Mac Pro..  That is a 7 year life time for Apple.. And now with the fact surfacing, Apple deliberately slows down their old iPhones, forcing the user to buy a new one, just points out the greed of large companies. I certainly hope Yamaha doesn't resort to that.  Of course new technologies  is part of the price we pay for such rapidly advancing technology.

There is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with the GENOS,  it's really my age, and musical tastes, that make me not as excited of the Genos as I was the Tyros.
I've still got my Tyros 5.  But don't think I am going to keep both the Genes and Tyros. I'll probably sell the Tyros. 

I guess I have reached the point that my parents  reached 20 years ago..  When they decided keeping up with the 'curve of modern technology' was not for them. For instance I recently got an Android phone (had a simple flip phone for many years)..  I hated the Android at first, and was toying with the idea of going like 'Prince' and just not having a cell phone at all.  But I decided if I didn't make the attempt to keep up with technology now, I would fall behind. And at a healthy 69 years of age, I do plan on sticking around (now I am going to get down to creating some really serious music)..

So yes, the bottom line is the Genos is a very decent instrument.. Some of us here, love it.  And it has been getting good comments from the 30 - 50 year old users..  I would say I, for some of us here, our musical path, and Yamaha's is branching off in different directions. Us oldsters, have to decide if we are going to keep up with technology, Finances, health, and our life span will dictate our course of action. 

Hey, if I hold on my Tyros 5. I might A/B the Genes, and Tyros six months from now and have a different opinion.  I reserve the right to do so..