STOP blame Genos

[Will49]

I have suggested, in another thread, that having one demo for styles (without playing) and another demo just for the sounds where one could play to thier heart's content (without using styles) would be a huge help to those still sitting on the fence .

My sentiments exactly! I often come across video demos that have the heading 'Style demo', only to hear almost nothing of the style that is supposed to be demoed as there is ALWAYS someone playing the damn right hand parts so much that you can't hear the style's patterns and riffs properly at all! Why can't someone do a proper demo of styles by just going through some of the intros, couple of variations and an ending (WITHOUT playing) so that we can hear the content properly?!! And this is not just to do with Genos, as it seems to be like that with most video demos.

[markstyles]

Hi Ugawoga:

That was my impression.  I think it was because of some of the styles I pulled up..  One can easily adjust EQ to suit them.  I don't like the Kino strings.. my personal opinion, others will certainly disagree with me..  There is such a huge variety of string sounds to be had. 

Personally I liked the strings in the T5 better, but things always change..  a personal note,  I HATE reverb..And I sometimes get complaints, that my music would sound better, if I had reverb.    I mixed a record when I was 26,  The recording studio I worked at had a very expensive plate reverb unit..  I completely overdid it,  and was so embarrassed. Luckily the client didn't seem to mind.  Reverb was also used in the 70's as a device to 'hide' or blur, things that were less than perfect. 

In general, Yamaha put too much reverb send on everything.  Buts it's simple to modify it to suit one's taste.

Take what I say with a 'grain of salt', just like everybody's opinion here..  You have to judge for yourself.

The Kino strings will be fine for playing live I'm sure..  Reverb, EQ, can easily be modified to suit one's taste.

In any case, my observations (and personal taste) shouldn't be a 'no-go' for any potential customer..

Hi Bacchus.  Yes I agree with your thoughts..  Years ago Korg came out with this amazing keyboard, The Oasys..  Unfortunately it was $10K...It had everything in it.

Problem was.. too expensive.. Later Sam Ash was blowing them out for 5K.. I went and played it everyday.. but decided against it. Bought a Korg M3, and some other equipment.

Yes it would be great if there was a company that build an instrument, that let you personalize it for your needs.  So we mix and match the equipment/software we need. 

[Bachus]

Hi Ugawoga:

That was my impression.  I think it was because of some of the styles I pulled up..  One can easily adjust EQ to suit them.  I don't like the Kino strings.. my personal opinion, others will certainly disagree with me..  There is such a huge variety of string sounds to be had. 

Personally I liked the strings in the T5 better, but things always change..  a personal note,  I HATE reverb..And I sometimes get complaints, that my music would sound better, if I had reverb.    I mixed a record when I was 26,  The recording studio I worked at had a very expensive plate reverb unit..  I completely overdid it,  and was so embarrassed. Luckily the client didn't seem to mind.  Reverb was also used in the 70's as a device to 'hide' or blur, things that were less than perfect. 

In general, Yamaha put too much reverb send on everything.  Buts it's simple to modify it to suit one's taste.

Take what I say with a 'grain of salt', just like everybody's opinion here..  You have to judge for yourself.

The Kino strings will be fine for playing live I'm sure..  Reverb, EQ, can easily be modified to suit one's taste.

In any case, my observations (and personal taste) shouldn't be a 'no-go' for any potential customer..

Hi Bacchus.  Yes I agree with your thoughts..  Years ago Korg came out with this amazing keyboard, The Oasys..  Unfortunately it was $10K...It had everything in it.

Problem was.. too expensive.. Later Sam Ash was blowing them out for 5K.. I went and played it everyday.. but decided against it. Bought a Korg M3, and some other equipment.

Yes it would be great if there was a company that build an instrument, that let you personalize it for your needs.  So we mix and match the equipment/software we need.

The Oasys was way ahead of its time, the Kronos still in many ways is not a Oasys... but i was basically same tech inside... 10 years after the oasys and still none can touch it...

The oasys was a development product, which allowed them to gain back the investment that set them up for the future..  i was on the verge of buying a used one, when the Kronos got released..

There was one thing the oasys was missing, and that was arranger styles...


Back on the atrings, peter baartmans did a nice demo on the difference between kino and normal strings, kino strings are a Hans Zimmer product... and are used in many music and modern popmusic stuff.. they are a requirement these days...  just look the oostendorp demo...

[Marcus]

In regards to strings and reverb, but mostly referring to the Tyros 5 and the Genos. Reverb, providing it isn't really overdone, generally makes a voice sound fuller, especially a human voice or a vocal track. Reverb on a keyboard instrument is suppose to simulate the environment and the position the voice/instruments are placed in the environment or surroundings in the real world.

Choosing the correct reverb type and the amount of reverb, plus adding correct pan position/amount for each instrument/voice or channel can recreate an authentic real environment, unless being purposely manipulated for an effect or some contemporary EDM stuff.

Yamaha, by default, typically will add more reverb and some other DSPs to make the overall sound more full compared to some other arranger manufacturers (like the keyboard that cannot be named), and from the same brand that owners toute and buy because their arranger sounds more live...therefore better. No, the other brand that cannot be named, just uses less DSP or reverb processing by default that is perceived to sound more, so-called "live".

What is more important is the quality voices and the quality of the DSPs, and Yamaha delivers in this department over any other brand arranger. Funny that Yamaha backed off the overall DSP/reverbs effects on the Tyros 5 to give that drier/live feel to the sound and many complained that their Tyros 4 sounded better. Personally, I thought the Tyros 4 sound was a bit over-processed and the Tyros 5 was balanced perfect for my taste, but in either arranger, all these adjustments can be made by the user to suit (processed verses drier " live").

Note also that the voice's natural acoustics can be made during within a voice sample itself to sound more real. Supposedly the Revo drum samples were done this way, similar idea to the Real Drums and Real Brushes, but taken a step further with wave cycling. Again, by adding more DSP processing, even to the naturally live sounding Revo drums, one can easily place that drum kit into a large hall environment and still sound "live" or "real". Yamaha knows exactly what default settings are going to sound the best for most of the arranger crowd that is going to buy it and evolves as the market evolves.

I big step up in Reverb was the Real Reverb DSP introduced on the Tyros 5. Parameter adjustments can reproduce any acoustic environment and more accurately. The Genos added a second Real Reverb effect, adding more mid-range and presence to the effect. Looking forward to using these high quality reverbs, just short of the higher quality studio expensive convoluted reverb types. If the voices are high quality, they will sound "live" or "real" in any acoustic environment, especially with better quality DSPs. Thus my hunch why, the keyboard that cannot be named, uses a drier DSP default.

In regards to strings. Most perceived the Real Strings on the Tyros 5 as harsh, but in reality string bow instruments are harsh in a sense, because it is the friction between the rosined bow and string that creates the sound. Until an actual string instrumentalist becomes proficient, smooth, and expressive that the harshness becomes a beautiful expressive sound. Add many in an larger enclosed environment and fuller lush sound can be made with good positioning and with rich harmonies.

The Real Strings work great as an Ensemble voice as each is used within as an individual solo part, but sound great working together. Only a few string voices on the Tyros 5 had the fuller string sound, like the "live strings" or "movie strings" as a couple of examples.

Personally, I am looking forward to the library of Kino Strings on the Genos, especially adapting them to the Real Reverb DSP effects, reproducing an intimate "live" setting/invironment to a full lush orchestral effect. I was really please to see that the Kino Strings can be used as Ensemble voices. Well done Yamaha, not only for the Tyros 5 ( that was well ahead of the keyboard that cannot be named), but now the Genos that continues to lead the arranger industry and gives so much back to any lucky owner regardless of skill level or amateur to pro.

Marcus

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi

I do agree with Mark Styles about reverb.
There Is too much accent on reverb these days which overkills music.
When you listen to groups In the early 70s like Hot Chocolate they used very little reverb especially Errol the lead singer and their music was warm and incredible.
Less reverb in my view adds to a warmer sound. Even a sax without reverb sounds natural and magic, but in certain cases like Gerry Rafferty's Baker street the sax benefits from a bit of reverb.

I do think that late  60s 70s music was more fun, richer sounding, warmer with that live feel. USA funk was very well produced and so was  a USA band called Starcastle and  album -- Fountains of Light. Check that out for 1970s album  quality. Also Robin Trower --- Bridge of Sighs. That was mixed by a genius.
Todays 's music not a patch on that. Caro Emerald does bring a little class into today's music though.


Hurry up GENOS ----Oh the pain of waiting!!

[markstyles]

Well today I turned on the Genos, and somehow magically the Kino strings improved considerably.  Perhaps I just had to let them age 12 days..  That or my mind adapted.. I now considerable them to be very useful.  Like Eileen warned about, I spoke too soon.. 

With each new model of Tyros, it did take me several days to 'adapt' to it.. 

One thing Yamaha is GREAT at, is the ability to make their instruments sound together well.  While  you listen to an individual instrument. It may not strike you as the most amazing patch you've heard.. But when you mix it in with several other tracks. They blend tremendously well..

In music there is often a 'spotlight' on a  particular instrument.. The S.art2 instruments are amazing at that.. Their technique of gluing together small samples on the fly, creates a beautiful realism not heard in other instruments. 

Certain instruments, have to play a supporting role, they can't demand too much attention to themselves. otherwise the music becomes too busy, too much demanding your attention..

To any potential buyers, you must listen and decide for yourselves.  I can see some users, not interested in the 'new sounds'.. and may appreciate the T5's more conservative instruments, and their price will dropped..  It is still an excellent machine.

Also Yamaha are leaders,  and sometimes it takes us followers a bit of time to 'get with it', what Yamaha is doing.  I have owned Yamaha musical instruments since the DX7. Quite a few instruments actually.  I have NEVER been disappointed with their design, and quality and usefulness.

Ugawoage.. I totally agree with you on overuse of reverb. I loved Hot Chocolate for the reason you point out.. A big turning point for me was Neil Young's "After the Goldfish". The whole album was recorded extremely dry.  It blew me away, and for many years, I banned reverb, on all but the most essential sounds, and to appease listeners, because they are so accustomed to it.

And just turning down the reverb is easy enough to accomodate any user.. The EQ can also be easily altered to suit individual tastes.
Especially in the Tyros family, I rarely every bothered with EQ.. Everything was too my liking.. Mixing with other instruments, I might occasionally do a little low or hi end roll-off to make sonic room for other instruments.

[sunny]

Hi Anand Kr Maloo,
                      I regret to inform that Genos does not have Indian kits and Indian voices. No improvement over Tyros5 regarding Indian voices &Styles. Now we have to depend on expansion voices and styles.

Sunny

[anandmaloo]

Hi Sunny,
Thanks for the Update. I got my Genos delivery yesterday and was aghast to find that the units sold in India do not have inbuilt wifi.  The wifi option in the Menu 2nd screen is not there at all !!!

Very very disappointed. Also can you advise what are the other Indian packs of older models that can be loaded on to Genos

Regards

Anand'

[valimaties]

Hi Sunny,
Thanks for the Update. I got my Genos delivery yesterday and was aghast to find that the units sold in India do not have inbuilt wifi.  The wifi option in the Menu 2nd screen is not there at all !!!

Very very disappointed. Also can you advise what are the other Indian packs of older models that can be loaded on to Genos

Regards

Anand'

What firmware version do you have installed on it?

[Snicker740]

Hi Sunny,
Thanks for the Update. I got my Genos delivery yesterday and was aghast to find that the units sold in India do not have inbuilt wifi.  The wifi option in the Menu 2nd screen is not there at all !!!

Very very disappointed. Also can you advise what are the other Indian packs of older models that can be loaded on to Genos

Regards

Anand'

Last December, I went to try Genos at Yamaha Viet Nam. It also does not have wifi inbuilt.
Then I bought Genos from the US then it has Wifi in it.
Basically it is still Genos as we are using, but it seems it does not have a built-in Wifi processor. I think the Indian Genos version is the same.

[Will49]

Yamaha, by default, typically will add more reverb and some other DSPs to make the overall sound more full compared to some other arranger manufacturers (like the keyboard that cannot be named), and from the same brand that owners toute and buy because their arranger sounds more live...therefore better. No, the other brand that cannot be named, just uses less DSP or reverb processing by default that is perceived to sound more, so-called "live".

Hi Marcus, You say "(like the keyboard that cannot be named)". Unless I am very mistaken, you are referring to Korg... am I correct? And why is it that it cannot be named here anymore? If this Forum's rules about mentioning brands other than Yamaha have recently changed, then please inform me as I was unaware of any such changes.

Regards,
Will

[Oldden]

Hi Will,
Well you have just named it, Korg , so nothing's changed
Oops so have I.

Oldden

[Will49]

Hi Will,
Well you have just named it, Korg , so nothing's changed
Oops so have I.

Oldden

Hi Olden, Thanks for confirming. 

Best regards,
Will

[panos]

I would like to buy one of these but I am not sure which sounds better 
sound comparison

[XeeniX]

Finally,

Yamaha at it's best The <beep> with kino strings and revo drums I would trade in everything else in order for me to be able to drive one of these beasts again. The cars and keyboards I can do without but my bike...

thanks Panos, I like your "style"

Peter

[anandmaloo]

What firmware version do you have installed on it?

Have installed the latest 1.1

[EileenL]

The latest update is 1.10.

[soundphase]

On YouTube, with Tyros range, people accepted sound is not a perfect reproduction of real instruments. With Genos, it seems that people do no longer accept it at all.

But generally people who complain are far to be able to do 10% of the result by themselves.

[EileenL]

As I have said many times People perceives sound differently anyway. To me the over all sound of Genos in my home is fantastic. There is plenty of room for adjustment to your own taste and how you use these sounds.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
The Genos did not sound good at all with all those beginning videos and that is down to the recordings.
When listening to demos on utube etc ,you are not hearing the full sound as It should be.
I have not purchased the Genos speakers as I do not rate them for the price.
A decent set of speakers in the £800 to £1000 range brings the Genos alive.
It becomes the beasty that you crave for.
The difference between £300 and a £1000 is nothing compared with the price you pay for the Genos.
If you purchased a Rolls Royce you would not put cheap oil In it!!!

All the Best
john

[valimaties]

I agree with John...
We all have different choices on sound quality, frequencies, etc... All that matters is the PA system you use (in my case I gig a lot, so at home, at least for now, I use headphones), in the second way is the eq you make for the environment, etc...  If you play only at your home you always will be grateful about Genos sound, because you made it there, and you play only there.. But when you gig, is not so simple and there is not always like you want to be...

Regards,
Vali

[soundphase]

Hi
The Genos did not sound good at all with all those beginning videos and that is down to the recordings.
When listening to demos on utube etc ,you are not hearing the full sound as It should be.
I have not purchased the Genos speakers as I do not rate them for the price.
A decent set of speakers in the £800 to £1000 range brings the Genos alive.
It becomes the beasty that you crave for.
The difference between £300 and a £1000 is nothing compared with the price you pay for the Genos.
If you purchased a Rolls Royce you would not put cheap oil In it!!!

All the Best
john

hello John.
Sorry. Perhaps you already answered, I know that you have simultaneously monitors and speakers. I have good old monitors MPS10 Studio.
Can you remind me what monitors and speakers you have, and how you switch from speakers to monitors ?

Thank you in advance
Soundphase

[soryt]

I dont blame the Genos , but the support from Yamaha is much to slow .
Why not a page with a product survey where we can give our problems with this keyboard .
is there right at Yamaha what is going on among the customers

Soneg 🎹