Arpeggiators on Genos and S970 Arranger keyboards

[Joe H]

EDIT: I asked Roger to move this topic to the Genos Board since we now know Genos has an arpeggiator.  Thank you Roger

I thought I'd move this topic over to Other Features rather than the Genos board because the S770 and S970 arrangers already offer an arpeggiator and real-time control.  Though these functions are far more limited in their implementation than they COULD have been.  It's a beginning and a sign that Yamaha is listening to its customers.

I fully expect that Genos has at least one arpeggiator, but could very well have inherited the dynamic 4-arpeggio technology from the Motif line, which has evolved and advanced over the years.

Many arranger players have little or no experience using arpeggiators so it might be worthwhile opening this discussion with some basic information on what arpeggiators are... and how they can be used.

I'm sure that some people have the impression that arpeggiators are for Electronic Dance Music (EDM) only.  But this is not the case at all.  In fact our arranger styles and Multi Pads are recorded arpeggios.  With the Motif line of workstations, Yamaha incorporated 4 LIVE arppegios which offer far greater dynamics and variation in a performance than stagnant pre-recorded arps can... which are used to create our styles and Multi Pads.

Here is a brief overview of Yamaha's evolving development of the arpeggio from it's early "broken chord" form to a very sophisticated Pattern Generator form that no longer resembles the original definition of arpeggio.  The following is a summary from the Motif Rack XS Owner's Manual.
I've also attached a PDF version of this summary for download.


Arp Categories
Acoustic Piano & Keyboard
Organ
Guitar / Plucked
Guitar for "Mega Voice"
Bass
Bass for "Mega Voice"
Strings
Brass
Reed / Pipe
Lead Synth Lead
Synth Pad / Musical Effect
Chromatic Percussion
Drum / Percussion
Synth Sequence
Chord Sequence
Hybrid Sequence
Controller

Mega Voices and Mega Voice Arpeggios
Normal Voices use velocity switching to make the sound quality
and/or level of a Voice change according to how strongly or softly
you play the keyboard. This makes these Voices respond
naturally.

However Mega Voices have a very complex structure
with many different layers, and are not suitable for playing
manually. Mega Voices were developed specifically to be played
by Mega Voice arpeggios to produce incredibly realistic results.
You should always use Mega Voices with Mega Voice Arpeggios
(included in "GtMG" and "BaMG" category).


Sub Categories
Rock Z.Pad Zone Velocity for Pad*
R&B Filter
Electronic Expression
Jazz Pan
World Modulation
General Pitch Bend
Combination Assign 1/2
Zone Velocity*

Arpeggio types belonging to the Sub Categories marked with an asterisk
(*) contain some velocity ranges, to each of which a different phrase is
assigned. When a type of these categories is selected, it is a good idea to
set the Velocity Limit of each Element to the same range as below.

Velocity ranges of each Arpeggio type
2Z_*****: 1 – 90, 91 – 127
4Z_*****: 1 – 70, 71 – 90, 91 – 110, 111 – 127
8Z_*****: 1 – 16, 17 – 32, 33 – 48, 49 – 64, 65 – 80, 81 – 96, 97 – 108, 109 –
127
PadL_*****: 1 – 1, 2 – 2, 3 – 127
PadH_*****: 1 – 112, 113 – 120, 121 – 127


Arpeggio type ES
These Arpeggios created for use of Normal Voices will be
played back matching the played notes

Arpeggio type XS
These Arpeggios created for Normal Voices use a newly
developed chord recognition technology to determine what
notes should be played back by the Arpeggio.

Arpeggio type with a normal name (example: UpOct1)
In addition to the above types, there are three other playback
types:

1. Arpeggios created for use of Normal Voices and
    played back using only the played notes and their octave notes
2.  Arpeggios created for use of Drum Voices
3. Arpeggios containing mainly non-note events.


It is my hope this information will both inform and stimulate some useful discussion on the value of adding arpeggiators and real-time control features to all future mid-range and top-of-the-line arranger keyboards.

Joe H





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[Jeff Hollande]

Thank you Joe for bringing up this interesting thread.😄

I am one of these people who are never using aps.
It is time for me to change that attitude and from now I am going to start reading your attached pdf and find out if aps can make my songs richer.

Jeff

[alans]

Thanks Joe for starting this very interesting thread,although I do not have much experience with arps,I have dabbled with them in a simple way when I have connected my Casio WP- X1 and Waldorf Streichfett to my T5.Although the midi took a bit of sorting I did manage to make some some interesting pieces, although in limited sort of way.

I will keep following this thread with interest..Hopefully the Genos will have more scope for the use of arps which will no doubt add lots more interest to the music we can produce

Alan

😀😀😀

[Tom NL]

Thank you Joe,

As the original poster of this topic in the Genos thread, let me illustrate my thoughts on this matter by copying most of my previous post.

I asked Tommy 73 the following questions, but of course I would highly appreciate anyone to share his/hers experiences:

I find the concept of the arpeggiator instead of a style engine very interesting. For what I have heard so far, a lot of the arpeggios on the Montage are very inspiring! Since you have both the Montage and the PA4X you must have a clear picture of what it means for an arranger player to switch over to a performance synth like the Montage. My thoughts are that it would be refreshing to 'break free' of the somewhat rigid nature of predefined styles, to a more open structure of building an accompaniment with arpeggios. My understanding is that you can build up an accompaniment with 8 arpeggios which you can freely choose out of thousands, including breaks and endings.

Of course I realise that nothing is predefined and you would have to build up your accompaniments yourself, but I expect that you can save your work and reuse and change those settings for other performances. Is this how you use your Montage as well, or am I thinking too much from an arranger players perspective? By the way I am not into EDM at all and maybe there is a lot of emphasis on this genre in Montage. Is there enough orchestral and mainstream-like content as well?

Regards,

Tom

[Tom NL]

I fully expect that Genos has at least one arpeggiator, but could very well have inherited the dynamic 4-arpeggio technology from the Motif line, which has evolved and advanced over the years.

Thanks you Joe, it is very interesting to see how arpeggios have evolved over the years to what they are now. Does the Motif XF have a 4 track arpeggiator? If so, then Montage marks another major leap in this technology since it has an 8 track arpeggiator according to the specs. this would mean that at least the amount of available tracks is equal to the styles on arranger keyboards. I am not sure if all 8 tracks can compliment each other to make a coherent accompaniment though .

Tom

[Joe H]

Thank you Joe, great topic...

although i would have placed it in the Genos section

Bachus,

As I noted, because the S770 and S970 have an arpeggiator... and also considering Tom NL's questions and comments, I wanted this to be a topic of arpeggiators in general rather than Genos specific because hopefully this thread will benefit everyone who have a keyboard with arps.

Joe H

[Joe H]

Tom NL,

I think once you get a better understanding of arpeggiators you will see it's not either / or.  The arpeggiator is a TOOL.  As noted in Yamaha's description there are many types or categories of arps for different types of instruments and musical genre.

And as I noted, a live arpeggiator offers real-time variation of playback based on the notes being played with the right hand.  In the case of the Motif, Yamaha notes that Mega Voices are used to create dynamic variations in not only nuances of the instrument, but some of the Motif Mega Arps /  Voices have different instrument samples that respond to the different Velocity values programmed into the arp. This is how the multi channel Motif arps can be more expressive.

For arps to work on our arrangers, they must be programmed in CMaj7 scale.  So I think the Motif borrowed the chord recognition technology from the arranger keyboard.  And we will know soon if the Genos has an arpeggiator.  I can't imagine it NOT having at least ONE.  If the Motif arps have been ported over then we will have a very different kind of arranger for those thinking of buying a Genos.

There is a lot to say, but I am hoping for a group discussion and contributions from others who have used arpeggiators.

Joe H

[Joe H]

I am very interested in hearing what Tommy 73 has to say about arranging on his Montage and the use of arpeggiators.  My understanding is it is similar to the Motif Performances.   I think creating styles and arranging on the Genos will be similar to the method I have developed for the S970.  More on that... but hopefully Tommy 73 will chime in first.

And it's important to see this thread as being about arps in general... not the Montage, Motif, S970 or Genos.  since Arps are now a part of arranger architecture,  we can learn from each other from our shared experiences so those new to arps will appreciate their importance and value.

Joe H

[maartenb]

Very interesting thread!

I've never used arps, and I thought they were for the right hand only, like you can hear in the beginning of the first teaser "Star Dust". But I remember that I've heard a very realistic rhythm guitar pattern from an arp, many years ago. I think it was Bert Smorenburg on a demo of Motif?

Does someone know a YouTube video that showcases and explains these new arps?

Thanks in advance,


Maarten

[Joe H]

Hi Maartenb,

Thanks for joining in.  We will have a lot of competition with all the Genos threads but now that we know the Genos has an arpeggiator this topic will be relevant to the Genos.

Here are a couple of Youtube videos on arps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v8s1pyZ-2Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-R2rSrQDEw

There is a lot to say about arpeggiators and how they can be used for both live performance as well as a tool to create new style loops and Multi Pads.

Joe H

[Joe H]

Here's one more.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73Wrn5w41qo

The nice thing about the Motif is the Arp Editor where you can create your own.  The Motif will also import new User Arps.

The Motif Rack XS does not support User Arps and there is no editor   

It would be nice if the Genos supports User Arps or has an editor.  We will know soon.  These videos show the more advanced function on the Motif but should still help give people a better grasp of how arpeggios are constructed.

NOTE:  While the S970 arpeggiator does not have any drum arps, it is possible to create new drum loops by playing the right notes on the keybed and record them to the on-board sequencer.  More on that later.

Joe H

[Joe H]

... But I remember that I've heard a very realistic rhythm guitar pattern from an arp, many years ago. I think it was Ber Smorenburg on a demo of Motif?

Maarten

The Motif has a few... I'll try to record a some arp types from the S970 including a guitar arp, piano arp, keyboard arp and strings arp.  R1 can play the arp while R2 can play normal.  The overdub of an arpeggio with another Voice can provide interesting effects.   Chord arps are basically rhythmic in nature and sequence arps are as well.

Joe H

[John K]

Hi Joe,

Interesting thread.

This is a recording I made on the Motif XS some time ago, the brass section is an Arp and the drum is also on the whole an Arp, the rest of the parts I played in individually myself. Just to give anyone interested a flavour of Arps..... and it's not EDM, it's Watermelon Man by Herbie Hancock!!

https://soundcloud.com/imfarming4-johnk/watermelon-man5

John

[Joe H]

Hi John,

Nice to hear from you... it's been awhile.  That is the perfect kind of example I'm looking for.  Now that Yamaha includes an arpeggiator in it's latest arrangers, it's my intent to shed some light on the use of arps.

So the brass arp is an excellent example of non EDM.  And of coarse Yamaha emphasizes the value of arps for creating drum loops.

PS: I'm waiting on an audio cable to patch my Motif Rack XS into my S970 so I can record the MRXS on the S970 WAV recorder.  We still don't know what capabilities are in the Genos, but we know there is at least one live arpeggiator.  Wouldn't it be nice if that arp could be used with R1, R2, R3, Left or in a style Part?

Cheers,
Joe H

[Joe H]

Genos has an arpeggiator!

So... now the topic of arpeggiators is relevant to the Genos.   

Many things to cover on this topic.  Once Yamaha releases the Owners' Manual, Reference Manual and Data List Book we will know a lot more about how Yamaha designed the new keyboard and what kind of implementation has been programmed for the arpeggiator.

Won't be long now.  Please keep in mind that this thread is still about arpeggiators in general and not exclusive to the Genos.



Joe H

[Mjm]

Thanks for sharing Joe,
I have not used arps much, because I didn't understand their many uses. The information you provided has given me a whole new view of an arp. Thanks!

[Joe H]

Mjm,

We are just getting started.  There is a lot to cover and I welcome anyone who wishes to share their experience with playing arpeggiators.  At first I didn't think they were that useful.  But as I learned (and continue to learn) how to PLAY them, I now see them as a useful tool in making music. 

To PLAY an arpeggiator means to develop fingering patterns for the arpeggiator to follow rather than just holding a number of keys down.   Each arpeggio has a pattern of its own that will repeat over and over if you just play a single note or several notes.  But by playing different notes with the arpeggiator running it is possible to create many variations based on the rhythm of the arp itself.

An arpeggio is a "broken chord"... that is the notes are played in succession rather than simultaneously.   In the 1980s arpeggiators on analog synthesizers and MIDI keyboards were simple up and down patterns like you might hear played on a orchestral harp.  But on a synthesizer you could create varying patterns for a synth Bass by what notes you played on the keyboard.

Today's arpeggiators are comprised of not only a sequence of notes, but also rhythmic note patterns, MIDI controller messages like cc11 (Expression) and cc74 (Filter Cutoff), cc10 (Panpot) and sometimes even Pitch Bend messages.  Yamaha has advanced arpeggios to an even greater extent with what they call Mega Arpeggios that really get complicated using special Mega Voices to create realistic guitar strums, or a combination of different instrument sounds in a single Voice to creat an interesting musical phrase.  Then there are arpeggios created strictly for playing drum and percussion patterns.

The S970 does not have any Mega arps or drum arps.  It will be interesting to see what Yamaha has programmed into the Genos. It may be similar to the S970 or more like the Motif arps... or something in between.

I think that maybe learning to play arpeggiators is a little like learning to play music itself.  Start simple and just keep practicing.



Joe H

[John K]

Hi Joe,

Yes, it's ben a while, but I read a lot of the posts and intersting topics here, just busy with work.

I digress, here is an example of the Motif XS guitar strumming patterns that Joe is mentioning, again not EDM but James Taylor's Fire & Rain, a project I haven't finished but listen to all the variations within the guitar patterns. Hopefully the Genos may utilise these Arpeggiaters to the full. Listen with headphones or good speakers for best effect.

https://app.box.com/s/4fzf0yaq1o1hmsbrisgs

John

[Mjm]

Hi Joe,
Thanks for the info. Wow, I have a lot to learn, but am looking forward to experimenting with some of the ideas you mentioned.

Best regards,

Mark

[soundphase]

If the arpeggiatior provides us very good guitar strums patterns, it will be fantastic.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

You could also make your own arpeggios and stick them on a pad.
Just means a little extra work but good for practice.
Also if daw compatible, you can use the Genos with Vst Instruments ,then skies  the limit.
I did this with tyros 5 The first effect done with vst,the rest Tyros 5 .Took a little practice getting the repeat arpeggio right. Makes your pinkies ache.


https://soundcloud.com/silver-machine/eye-in-the-sky-and-really-sirius

[Joe H]

John K,

Thanks a gain for the contribution and demo of a guitar arp.  Yes I hope the Genos has some good guitar arps.  the arps in the S970 are particularly good for piano, strings, and synth leads and counter leads.

I'll try to record some of these in the next few days.  Watching out for the next Genos video... so this thread may experience a blackout for a couple of days.   

Joe H

[Joe H]

John S,

What a great piece of music!  Seven + minutes is a long time to hold one's attention... but you pulled it off very well.



Joe H

[Joe H]

You could also make your own arpeggios and stick them on a pad.
Just means a little extra work but good for practice.
Also if daw compatible, you can use the Genos with Vst Instruments ,then skies  the limit.
I did this with tyros 5 The first effect done with vst,the rest Tyros 5 .Took a little practice getting the repeat arpeggio right. Makes your pinkies ache.


https://soundcloud.com/silver-machine/eye-in-the-sky-and-really-sirius

Absolutely.  I play the Motif Rack XS arps, the Proteus arps and Catanya v2 VST (a Cubse plug-in)  on my S970.  I too have created arps by playing them by hand and recording them to the S970 sequencer.  Once a MIDI file they can be converted to style Parts or Multi Pads.

But the live arpeggiator is different in that we can achieve real-time variations as we play the arp.

NOTE:  I realize there is no particular format for this thread but at some point the collective information can be summarized and organized into a useful document (hopefully).



Joe H

[Joe H]

If the arpeggiatior provides us very good guitar strums patterns, it will be fantastic.

There are MIDI guitar loops out there (Twiddly Bits) that were recorded using a MIDI guitar that sound very realistic.  If you want guitar parts for styles or Multi Pads that is a good option.  I personally haven't experimented with guitar arps much since I have been focusing on EDM for the last couple of years.



Joe H

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Joe
Thanks for your comments, much appreciated. Once you get the tune in your head it is not too bad. You just have to get those registrations right and practice like billy'o.
I must admit that It will be handy to have the arpeggiator, but rich piano's,orchestra's,brass and even better saxes is what I dream of from the new Genos. Also looking forward to the Synth section.
If the organs are great The santana stuff will sound good.The editing side I hope is good as well.
As you guessed Joe I am a 60s and 70s man.

All the best
John

[Joe H]

As you guessed Joe I am a 60s and 70s man.

All the best
John

I grew up in the 50s and 60s.  The 70s in particular produced a LOT of good music.



Joe H

[Joe H]

In the end, i think that in every decades huge amounts of great music are produced..

Dont forget the 80's and the 90's ...  thats when i was dating and dancing and playing live music...
Making a lot of that music special to me..

I agree... I like almost everything except heavy metal.



Joe H

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

In my opinion


View from a Victor Meldrew!!   "I don't believe it"!!

Before and 20s,30s 40,s 50s,60s,70s 80s Is where music was at It's best as music was more Interesting and fun and descriptive.
The downfall for me was Punk onwards, All music from then got dumbed down and young people with mobile phones and playstations wired up to everything except real life does not make for future of Intelligent music. .  Kids today think they are musicians firing off samples from a flashing Light Box with loads of coloured buttons kind of like.
You turn on the Tv and everything now is manic with reality shows and even Strictly Come Dancing has been dumbed down.
I rarely watch tv as the music soap and reality shows drives me nuts.

Thank God for my man cave

[Dromeus]

I like almost everything except heavy metal.

Well, I'm still into progressive rock/metal after all these years  But pardon me folks, I don't like Schlager