What do you think -- PSR-E463 Wishlist?

[SciNote]

I know it seems like it was just yesterday that the PSR-E453 was released, but by my estimation, we are about eight months away from the release of the PSR-E463, based on how and when the previous models have been released.  So, let's hope that it's early enough in the development cycle for Yamaha to implement suggestions, and perhaps more importantly, let's hope Yamaha reps read this board and consider suggestions!

Here are some of the features I'd like to see in the E463...

A setting for the sustain pedal, which can be stored in a registration, that would allow sustain to be applied to both sides of a split keyboard, not just the right side, as is the case now.  If you're playing a bass line with your left hand, then yes, it is desirable to not have that sound sustain while you sustain the right hand voice, which could be piano, organ, or strings, for example.  But if you're playing orchestral sounds, with maybe strings on one side of the keyboard and piano on the other, then it would be nice for the sustain pedal to affect both sides of the keyboard.

Put the on/off status of the DSP in the registration settings.  Seriously, how could this have been left out in the first place?  On the E453, the registrations store what type of DSP is selected, as well as the settings associated with both knob parameters, yet they could not find room to store the "zero" or "one" of one binary digit to tell the keyboard whether DSP should be switched on or off?

Improve the rotary speaker DSP function.  At the very least, give it more depth -- It currently sounds like it's got the right sonic qualities, but it is not "deep" or "intense" enough, even at its maximum setting.  Ideally, add a 3-way switch for the speed that selects from the setting of the speed control knob, a preset slow speed, and a preset fast speed, and make it so that when going from slow to fast, or from fast to slow, that the speed automatically and gradually goes from the first speed to the second speed, just like a real Leslie speaker, and without having to have the keyboardist gradually turn a knob for the effect, which prevents the keyboardist from using that hand to play the keyboard while simulating the speed-up/slow-down effect.

More registrations would be nice, but I can see the need to keep the number of banks to a single digit -- fewer keystrokes (button pushes) to go from one bank of registrations to another.  However, two more banks could be added (bank 0 and bank 9) while still keeping the banks to a single digit, and perhaps more than four registrations per bank can be implemented.

Add the ability to do a style/rhythm drum fill without switching from style variation "A" to "B" or "B" to "A".  Currently, there is only one button that generates a drum fill -- the style variation button, and of course, it also switches the style variation.  So, to do a fill and keep the same variation, you have to hit that button twice.  How about just adding a "drum fill" button that plays the fill without switching the variation?

An option to switch off the function on the keyboard that changes all of the dual and split voice settings when you select a new main voice.  Plenty of times, I'm setting up a patch, and if I just want to try a different dual voice, that is fine -- I can change the dual voice number and everything else stays the same.  But if I want to keep the dual voice and hear the patch with a different main voice, I have to start over because changing the main voice automatically calls up a set of dual (and I believe also split) voice parameters that Yamaha believes goes well with the main voice you select.  Previous Yamaha keyboards have had the ability to turn this function off.  Please bring that back!


The following would be nice, but are probably unlikely for a keyboard in this price range...

Portamento!  That would really make the keyboard stand out -- even if it is just available on certain synth-style voices.

Modulation -- one of the few places where the E-series keyboards lack functionality is the ability to add pitch modulation (vibrato).  This, perhaps along with a modulation wheel, would be a nice addition to the keyboard.

Another line of information on the LCD display, so that you can see more quickly what voice and function is set up, without having to wait for the keyboard to display one element of data, then another.

The ability to do at least basic editing of a sequencer track after recording it, such as going back and "recording over" a part of the already-recorded track and changing the volume of the already-recorded track.

[SeaGtGruff]

One of those requests is already a reality... Modulation. Although the PSR-E models don't have a Modulation Wheel, they do respond to Modulation CC messages, and one of the iPad apps (Sound Controller?) lets you use a virtual Modulation Wheel to increase or decrease the amount of Modulation.

[vbdx66]

Hi,

Although these additions would certainly be more than welcome, I strongly doubt that any of them will become reality. For a 300 € keyboard, the E453 is already jam packed with functionalities. Do not forget the target audience for these PSR E keyboards: youngsters and retirees on a budget.

As for the Leslie, I am already very happy that it exists at all! A Leslie emulator on an entry level keyboard!!! I think that we may not expect too much from these keyboards, who already give us a very high price-quality ratio. People wanting more functionalities should probably give a look at the PSR S series (PSR S670 or 770).

As for the problem with the sustain, I doubt that Yamaha will ever fix this. It has been a recurrent problem in the PSR E line of keyboards for as long as I can remember.

IMHO, the problem with the PSR E4xx line of keyboards is that it has reached an audience for which it wad not conceived in the first place. The E keyboards have always been targeted at beginner home players, either yongsters or retired people on a budget (retired people who can afford it will go for a PSR S or a Tyros I guess).
Actually, Yamaha packed these "entry level" keyboards with so many options that serious musicians on a budget have been buying them - but unfortunately, Yamaha want to sell their entry level keyboards to as many beginner musicians as possible - they do not really care about serious musicians on a budget, like the people who have been haunting this sub-forum for a few years now (us, I guess )

That said, some time ago I sold my faithful E433 and have ever regretted it. It think I will buy the PSR E453 in the forthcoming weeks. I don't know whether it is because the E463 will come next spring, but the prices of th E 453 have dramatically dropped during lasts weeks. I have seen it as low as 230 € on a french website. Although I am the happy owner of a DGX 650 on which I enjoy playing the piano, I always have been missing the flexibility of my dear old E433.

Anyway, apart from Yamaha puting even more functions or not in these nice little boards, I am sure we will have plenty of musical / technical fun with them for many years to come.

Best regards to all,

Vinciane

[SciNote]

It's true that we probably won't get too much of that list, but with each new model, Yamaha generally adds a few more features, in addition to extra voices and styles.  Going from the E433 to the E453, they've added tunable scales, audio input, 16 more notes of polyphony, USB audio output, and DSP, to name just a few things!  So, we may get a few new features next year.

The next step up (other than the 76-key EW400) is the PSR-S670, which is a really nice keyboard, but it is about three times the cost of the PSR-E453.  The people shopping for an E453 likely are not also considering an S670.  In any case, while it is amazing what Yamaha has put into a keyboard in the price range of the E453, I think most of the suggestions I came up are well within the range of possibilities for the new keyboard without significantly increasing its price.  It's not like I'm suggesting 128 note polyphony, S/A and mega voices, and 500 styles!  Some of my suggestions, such as being able to turn off "voice set" (which causes dual and split voice parameters to change any time you change the main voice) and the ability to have the sustain pedal affect the split voice, would be little more than programming changes to the built-in software.


Michael -- I don't want to drive this thread too far off topic, but with that virtual mod wheel, do you think it would work on an E433?  It seems like when Yamaha introduced the E443, they introduced the various apps for it, but did not indicate that they would work on the E433, even though the E433 also has USB connections.  I would also be curious if it would be possible to design an external app that would be able to select the voices of the keyboard, as well as adjust the various parameters, such as reverb, chorus, filter, and envelope generator.

[vbdx66]

Hello Bob,

I didn't imply that the new features suggested would cost too much too Yamaha. What I suggest is that they won't implement too many of them because if the PSR E463 were so jam-packed with high-end features, who would buy the PSR S670?

The problem with the PSR E4xx and EW4xx is that they are meant for beginners or people wanting to play the keyboard right out of the box, not for people wanting to mess around with internal parameters... This is why the split voice and dual will change when you change the main voice: Yamaha think they know better than you what settings you are willing to use.

What I find very petty from them, is the fact that they put a better piano sample in the EW400 than in the E453 (the so-called "Live" Grand Piano). When you are listening to demo's of both keyboards, the difference is very noticeable. This is a pitty, because even if you probably won't play Rachmaninov's Third Concerto on the E453 (and probably not on the EW400 either), the E453 is a great tool for composing music, and it is sad to have this poor piano sample onboard.

Actually I don't care too much about the 76 keys of the EW400 since I have the DGX650 if I need more keys, nor do I really need the stereo audio outputs (although I reckon this is a nice pro feature) since I don't play on stage but only at home, but the better piano sample has me hesitating between the PSR E453 and EW400 as a second, more portable keyboard than the DGX (which is moveable but not portable).

So if I had one wish for the PSR E463, it is that Yamaha would incorporate the "Live"! grand Piano sample in the set of voices. But I doubt they will do it, because this voice is a strong incentive to buy the EW400 (or its successor next April).

Anyway, I think hat at this stage the E463 and the successor of the EW400 (any clue about its name by the way ?) are already fully designed, if not in pre-production, and I think that any of our wishes should rather aim at the next generation, the PSR E473 or whatever.

Off topic: a voice editor, whether on a computer or an iPad, would indeed be the idea of the year! It would be nice to be able to create patches from scratch, like on more professional keyboards. Maybe a job for Jørgen if he is following this thread...? 

Just my 2 cents,

Best Regards,

Vinciane

[SeaGtGruff]

Yes, the Sound Controller app with the virtual modulation wheel works great with all of the PSR-E4xx models, as well as with the various PSR-E3xx and PSR-E2xx models (at least, up through the PSR-E243, which was the last PSR-E2xx model that had either MIDI or USB-MIDI ports). Or you can use other MIDI programs, such as DAWs, to send Modulation CC events to the keyboard.

The MIDI Implementation Chart that's in the Owner's Manual, Data List, or MIDI Reference (its location can vary from model to model) shows which CC events the keyboard can send and respond to. Naturally, none of the PSR-E models send the Modulation CC event-- except in cases where that event is included within a style or song that's being transmitted from the keyboard via MIDI-- but they can and do respond to the Modulation CC event.

Of course, it would be nice if the Modulation value could be set on the voices in each registration, the way Volume, Pan, Reverb Depth, and Chorus Depth can. It's fine and dandy that the keyboard can respond to certain CC events, but if the panel controls, function menu, and registrations don't let you set the value of a given parameter or control it during live play, it's not much use to the average player. It's like the Scale Tuning feature-- as far as I know, that capability exists in all of the PSR-E models (hook your PSR-E433 up to your computer and do a "SendInit" to a MIDI monitor so you can see the messages it puts out for setting up the first three channels for the Main, Dual, and Split voices), because the tuning of each note of the scale is set with XG messages. But if the user doesn't have ready access to that feature via the keyboard's controls, functions, and registrations, for most users the feature might as well not exist at all.

[pjd]

Hi --

I'm still pulling for Yamaha in this market segment, especially after my mixed experience with the Roland GO:KEYS. Yamaha do a reasonably good job of building a robust instrument at this price point.

My soapbox issue is the quality and variety of voices. To my ears, there's a fairly large gap between the E453 and the S670. The current Sweet and Cool voices are long in the tooth. Even the regular voices are not up to the same standard as the current MX series. (The MX49 sells for not much more than an E453.) The one plus point for the GO:KEYS is its fresher sounding voices and effects.

If Yamaha overhauls the voices, I'd replace my E443 in a minute.

All the best -- pj

[vbdx66]

Hello to all,

Some points to add to the PSR E463 wishlist:

- Audio USB recording directly onto an Usb stick (instead of having to connect the keyboard to an iPad or laptop).
- Likewise, the possibility to read .STY files directly from an USB stick instead of having to upload them to the keyboard internal memory.
- A few more Sweet!, Cool! or Dynamic! voices. The Sweet! muted trumpet and the Sweet! clarinet would be a nice add-on for the rendition of jazz tunes. The Sweet! violin would be nice for classical tunes like Bach's Air on a G string for instance.
- Revamped guitar sounds. As much as I like the PSR E4x3 voices in general, the guitars are just horrible IMHO. We would need at least a decent clean guitar for jazz and a distorsion guitar for rock tunes.
- Please, put the USB to device port and the phones jack connector in the front panel instead of the back panel of the keyboard (I understand that the phones jack connector is at the rear because it also serves as audio output to a PA system, but the reason why the USB to device port is on the rear panel remains a mystery...).
- A rudimentary mixer to be able to adjust the volume of style parts during live playing. It is already a nice feature to be able to mute tracks, but it would be much better to be able to adjust the volume of each track.
- The posibility to adjust the style tempo from one of the live knobs (this feature existed on older models but is disappeared unfortunately).
- The possibility to give labels to the registrations!!! To use them effectively, as things stand now, you must either write everything down or have an outstanding memory...
- A few more styles, esp. in the jazz and pop/rock category.

Just my two cents,

Regards,

Vinciane

[SciNote]

I can agree with pretty much all of those, though I think the existing guitars can be made pretty good through some tweaking.  But having something better to start with would be nice.

I can definitely agree with the need to have the USB to device port on the front of the keyboard.  Maybe they put in on the back so that, while playing and moving your hands across the keyboard and control panel, you don't accidentally whack a flash drive right out of its socket.  But they could do something -- maybe a recessed slot of some sort.  I have actually built an organ-style keyboard stand where I mount my E433, as well as an 88-key Casio, and I recently modified it with a front-mounted USB jack that plugs into the back of the E433 so that I can easily access a flash drive from the front of the set-up.

Labels for registrations -- and banks of registrations -- would also be nice -- to go with that larger display that I keep hoping for but likely won't get :-)

I know a better Leslie speaker simulator might be a tall order for a keyboard in this price range, but the Casio CTK-7200 has this feature and has a street price of maybe about $50-100 higher than the E453.

[vbdx66]

Hi Bob,

Yes, I sometimes consider buying a Casio as a second keyboard on top of my DGX 650, but I always come to the same conclusion: in this price range, the Yamaha's are strongly built, have better keybeds and, most importantly, more realistic sounds. So it is a no-brainer IMHO.

I really want a second, more portable keyboard quickly now so I won't wait for the PSr E463. I'll probably go for the E453 (prices are dropping these days here in Europe) or a second-hand E433 if I chance to find one. I just loved the E433 keybed as much as I disliked that of the E443 (I never had the E443 but I tried it in a shop and really disliked the feeling of the keys, I found them more "plasticky" than on the E433).

Best Regards,

Vinciane.

[SciNote]

Yep, I agree.  The Casios have a lot of features, but when I bought my E433, I compared it to the Casio CTK-7000 (which was the model available at that time), and to me, there was just no comparison.  When I tried to do an apples-to-apples comparison by selecting similar voices on each keyboard and not turning on any effects, the Yamaha just sounded warmer, fuller, and just better.  Maybe running the keyboards through an external amp and speakers would make a difference, but otherwise, the Yamaha just has a more professional sound.

And the feel of the keyboard on the E433 is absolutely second to none in this price range.  I agree that the E443 did not feel quite as good as the E433, but I didn't notice as much of a difference as you did.  I'd have to see the E453 again to get a feel for its key feel.  As I recall, when I first checked it out, I thought it was similar to the E443, but like I said, I didn't notice the E443 being that much worse than the E433.  And when compared to the Casios?  Not even close.  The CTK-7000 felt like a plasticky toy.  The CTK-7200 is interesting in that they seemed to have stiffened up the action to give it a semi-weighted feel, but I still much prefer the key feel of my E433, as well as its successors.

[vbdx66]

Hi Bob,

Well, if you have the opportunity to try out the E453 again in order to compare it with the E433 as far as the feel of the keys is concerned, I'd be very happy because it is probably the most important issue from my point of vue.

Because of all the features, I would certainly tend to buy the E453, especially since second-hand keyboards seem to be overrated by the people who sell them, so the price difference between a new E453 and an used E433 might not be that high.
But if the keybed is really much better, I will probably buy an used E433. I am so sorry I sold mine two years ago to buy my DGX - I love it, don't misunderstand me, but I have been missing the sounds and styles of the E433 ever since.

I think I'll start a new thread on comparing the E433 with the E443 and E453, so as not to spoil this' hread with an off-topic subject for too long.

Regards,

Vinciane

[AnupamEnosh]

Sadly, not even one of these suggestions were put into effect by Yamaha, even though we are a well known forum.
The only thing I see, is the Portamento voice, in a Casio beginner keyboard !

[SciNote]

Sadly, not even one of these suggestions were put into effect by Yamaha, even though we are a well known forum.
The only thing I see, is the Portamento voice, in a Casio beginner keyboard !

You are probably right, but we'll see...

There could still be a new setting with the sustain pedal.

They may have put the on/off status of the DSP in the registration settings.

They may have improved the rotary speaker DSP effect.

It is possible that they have added a "voice-set on/off" feature so that changing the main voice won't automatically call up a default dual voice.

And, there could be portamento incorporated into certain voices.

With these changes, we'll just have to wait for the manuals to be published and to actually see the keyboard in person.  But, you are probably right that these changes did not take place.  And we already can see that...

There are still only 32 registrations.

There is still only one button to do a drum fill and switch style parts.

The LCD display appears similar to those on previous models.

And, there doesn't appear to be any additional features on the sequencer, though I guess it could be possible.


When you look at what we know so far, it appears that the sampler is the big improvement here.  If it is of high enough quality, I could see the benefit of recording intricate sounds with it and using them in a performance.

[SeaGtGruff]

I think being able to do audio recording on the keyboard is the big improvement, followed by the sampler. The LCD display may be the same, but the change in the screen background color is an improvement.

[SciNote]

True, the LCD screen should be easier to read, but it isn't going to show much more information than before.  As for the audio recording, do you think it can record you playing live, including main, dual, and split voices, as well as any background style, song, or groove pattern?  Or do you think it will just record what is in the sequencer?

[SeaGtGruff]

I would think that the audio recorder functions similarly to the one in other models-- but we won't know for sure until the manual is posted.