Can we create our own Audio Styles from WAV or MP3 samples?

[GTS]

Hello,

I am trying to create the rhythm parts in a new styles using my own WAV or MP3 samples. So far, I have had some luck doing this if the WAV files are converted to REX files using ReCycle and using YEM. The REX files work to a limited extend and I believe that if there is a way to use the sample Audio WAV instead of the REX, the overall performance would be better. I have been looking at this for a while and is no much further ahead in understanding what to do.

This Yamaha.com link http://faq.yamaha.com/us/en/article/musical-instruments/keyboards/arranger_workstations/psr-s950/10345/8357/ shed some light but I am no further ahead.

I am hoping to get some help from the forum members to solve or better understand this topic.

Mods: This was also posted in the "PSR-S970/S770/S670 (SFF2)" forum http://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,36921.0.html.  I own a Tyros 5 and have unrestricted access to a PSR S-970, so is soliciting the assistance from any forum members that use YEM.

TIA
GTS....

[mikf]

There have been many many posts on this topic over the years and the concensus is that none of the software offerings for this work very well. Maybe at best they give a starting point but still a lot of work to create a style. Not surprising really as it is very complicated to dissect the parts from a song file and identify significant separate instrument parts and riffs that can become a style part.
Mike

[GTS]

Thanks for the response mikf.

[Marcus]

You can use REX files or make your own REX file from your own WAV or MP3 Drum Loop sample to create your own Audio quality Audio REX Style. With time and work, you can probably get similar results to the professional third party YamahaMusicSoft Audio REX Style pack. I personally didn't have the time to delve into the process, but this is how I would approach this.

Golden Oldies-REX Audio Styles-T5
https://www.yamahamusicsoft.com/sound-and-expansion-libraries/style-files/golden-oldies-rex-audio-styles-t5

Firstly, one would have to use the Propellerheads "ReCycle" program to generate your audio slices, edit, and save the final REX file that the Tyros 5 YEM can process.

Download Demo (This program is around $200, so certainly experiment with the demo before deciding)
https://www.propellerheads.se/recycle

ReCycle finds all the transients in your sampled material and slices your loop up, while also keeping the timing information so you can play it back at any tempo without losing its feel or with the artifacts that come from time stretch. ReCycle can make loops tempo independent. Instead of stretching the sample, ReCycle REX files are sliced into little pieces so that each drum hit (or whatever sound you are working with) gets its own slice. When you then change the tempo of the loop, the time between the slices is stretched, instead of the slices themselves.

The biggest issue is assembling the various Style Main and Fill parts, since the YEM will only create the audio drum loop for Style Main A, however with re-assembly in Style Creator you can slowly in steps reassemble your other Main and Fill parts by copying from the Main A position as each new REX part is introduced into assembly for copying purposes. The result should come close to the professional YamahaMusicSoft Golden Oldies Audio REX styles, but of course assembled with suitable MIDI parts for the remaining style channels.

With some sampling knowledge and experimentation you can rearranging the loop's slices in a sequencer to create fills and variations from your original audio sample you converted into the initial REX file that was converted by the YEM for Style Main A. The Recycle program documentation describes the following:
Tweaking
Sculpt your sound with ReCycle's built-in effects: Transient Shaper, EQ, Envelope and a stretch feature that stretches the tail end of your each slice in the loop.
Create
Save your loops as REX files and let the creative part begin. With ReCycled audio, your loops can be arranged, rearranged have their timing altered or even be used as a groove template for your song.

With Recycle, you should be able to create all you style parts and variances for your REX file parts that are converted by the YEM and made into a Audio REX style by first introducing the part into Style Main A and borrowing each part and reassembled one by one into the final style parts. Each time a style part is introduced in Style Creator, you would have to save the style each time to bake the REX file into the new Main or Fill part of the style until all your parts are filled. My only thought that is unclear is where the YEM transfers or imports the REX file to your Tyros 5. I would imagine in the Expansion folder. Also it would make sense that for your own Audio REX style to work, all the converted REX files have to be present in your Tyros 5 expansion folder. So to share a REX style, most likely you would have to make a YEM pack save to share, plus copy your finished REX Audio style from your Tyros 5 to another. My guess, that copied REX style on that Tyros 5 should automatically read the imported REX files or search from it's expansion folder.

This is all only speculation on my part, by most likely how I would approach making my own Audio Rex styles. Besides no time to try, I would have to also purchase the rather expensive Golden Oldies pack to see how Yamaha made their Audio REX files and how they are stored on the Tyros 5, but not worth buying for a musical genre I wouldn't use. Alternatively, you can also modify all the existing Tyros 5 Audio styles (with the time-stretch technology) in Style Creator and create hybrid styles, however can only be saved to the User drive and cannot be copied. Or mostly likely, the next Tyros/Genos model should introduce new Audio Styles, for more variety...or who knows what new features and technology will be introduced. I would hope previously created work would still be compatible.

What is ReCycle?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPm_KV-qmjk

Regards, Marcus



[attachment deleted by admin]

[GTS]

Hi Marcus,

Thank you for informed response. I have been using Recycle to make the REX files successfully in both the Tyros 5 and PSR S-970. I was looking to engage the forum members to see if there was a way to make our own Audio Styles using WAV or MP3 samples.

GTS...

[Marcus]

Hi Marcus,

Thank you for informed response. I have been using Recycle to make the REX files successfully in both the Tyros 5 and PSR S-970. I was looking to engage the forum members to see if there was a way to make our own Audio Styles using WAV or MP3 samples.

GTS...

Hi GTS
If you prefer not to slice your WAV or MP3 drum sample track/loop into a REX, there can be another option, but the tempo must be locked into the tempo within the sample. The WAV/MP3 would also have to be made into the full length of the song you want to play. If the sample is short, but can be repeated and stitched together into a full song length, then the other option is creating an Audio Link to an Audio Multipad while synced to a suitable style. So the Audio Multipad becomes the audio drum track, but synced to a style in a fixed tempo using Sync/Start.

Some drum loop samples are recorded already in a fixed tempo, but if you have no idea what tempo your WAV/MP3 drum track sample is in, then while the sample plays from whatever source, start any style on your Tyros 5 tap the "Tap Tempo" button to the tempo of the sample and make note of the indicated tempo. This will be your fixed tempo your style will be played with and eventually synced to your audio sample drum part.

Syncing an WAV or MP3 drum sample to a style
1 Find the suitable style you wish to derive the non-audio drum parts from and set to the fixed tempo of your WAV/MP3 file.

2 Play the style through with the original drum track on, so you can hear the drums as a temporary template. Make an audio recording of the style drum track with the Tyros Audio Recorder and copy to your USB drive and transfer to your PC.

3 Assuming you have some kind of audio editing software, software that visually shows the wave form of the audio files must be used, as one becomes a template while you edit your WAV/MP3 drum track file that eventually becomes your Audio Multipad.

4 Most Audio Editing software allows two audio tracks to be over and under each other in the program display so both tracks can be played and seen at the same time. You can visually see the wave forms with the highs, lows and importantly the peaks where the drums or beat is located within the wave. Should be easy to adjust one of the two tracks by moving it to line up the peaks since the tempo in both tracks should be really close. It is the WAV/MP3 track that requires the editing. May have to take slices and re-adjust sections to match up the peaks in the style track which should be above or below, depending how you loaded the two tracks. Also while played together in the audio program, you should be able to hear style drum track playing with WAV/MP3 track. After editing to sync the timing, save and normalize only the WAV/MP3 track while muting the Style audio track template. This saved audio file becomes your Audio Link to your Audio Multipad on your Tyros 5.

5 Create your Audio Link from your edited WAV/MP3 audio file and Audio Multipad on your Tyros 5. Select your style and mute the drum tracks. Sync/Start and arm your style and then Sync/Start and arm your Audio Multipad. Pressing any note or chord should start both your style and the synced Audio Multipad. Most likely the Audio Multipad will not start exactly at the correct time to the style. Make note if the Audio Multipad starts too soon or late. If so, re-import to your Audio Editing software to trim or add time to the beginning, save again, and re-create your Audio Multipad.

6 Once you get your style and Audio Multipad to start at the same time and volume balances are set, while both the Style and Audio Multipad are armed with Sync/Start, you can create a registration save. Meaning, when you call up your registration save, your synced style with the synced WAV/MP3 file is ready to go, only requiring a note or chord to start. Still have to play your chords to control the remaining style parts, and of course the fixed tempo must remain to keep the audio drum part in sync.

This option is not very good and requires quite a bit of work to edit and sync, but possible. Biggest disadvantage is the fact that you would have no manual control over the drum Mains and Fills as the WAV/MP3 drum track is fixed and must run through. That's why conversion to the REX method is better. Last option, your WAV/MP3 can be loaded to the Tyros 5 Audio player, that will allow pitch and time stretch adjustments, however no way to sync to the other style parts. 

Regards, Marcus

 

[pjd]

Marcus, your posts are fantastic!

Thank you -- pj

[XeeniX]

Thank you Marcus,

Although my T4 doesn't play audio styles at all a future instrument will. And this stuff is very interesting to read and keep in my "knowhow folder". Hope you didn't copyright it haha since I already copied and pasted it into notepad and in that folder for safe keeping

cheers,

Peter

[Jeff Hollande]

Super information, Marcus !
Thank you so much. Jeff

[Marcus]

Thank you Marcus,

Although my T4 doesn't play audio styles at all a future instrument will. And this stuff is very interesting to read and keep in my "knowhow folder". Hope you didn't copyright it haha since I already copied and pasted it into notepad and in that folder for safe keeping

cheers,

Peter

Hi Peter
This is what the forum is for, knowledge, sharing ideas and inspiring ideas outside the box. I loved my previous Tyros 4, superb arranger. Really like the energy and feel of the Tyros 5 Audio Styles, although fit fewer songs, and very intrigued with the potential of the REX format to somewhat reach the audio quality and live feel of a real audio drum track within a style. However, the most potential and flexibility is with just introducing better quality midi drum kits and DSP effects. Working purely with MIDI is the best, adding great quality drum kits and voices. Yamaha certainly does this best, plus the largest style selection into the hundreds of thousands. 

So I hope the next Tyros/Genos model gives us more voices, styles, drum kits, more editing features and ever increased sound quality and realism. I'm for more Audio Styles or perhaps introduce other audio style channels beyond just the drum track, but I still like the flexibility and editing power of dealing with just MIDI tracks in the style. Maybe Yamaha will allow creating our own audio styles (adding our own wav/mp3 samples) with the time stretch ability in the next model, but firstly improved drum kits and editing should be expected in the new model.

The best improvement you can add to any style or drum kit on the Tyros 5, is using the Real Reverb DSP for all your 16 song/style midi channels as more or less a global effect to the overall sound of your Tyros. Re-save all your styles (in Style creator) and all your registration saves substituting the Real Reverb (with suitable type and level) for each Mixing Console channel for the Reverb Block. More accurately mimics real ambiance for the environment effect you want for your performance, from room, stage, hall, large hall etc, reverb effects. Instantly improves (realism) your style and voices used. An example of Yamaha adding better DSP effects. Tip: You can also add the Real Reverb to your Audio Style Drum channel (Mixing Console) as well, but don't overdo it where the original live ambiance is overwhelmed.

Marcus

[GTS]

Hi Marcus,

Again - excellent information and with the elaboration with using the WAV/MP3 as audio style in multipad. I have been using this approach to enhance some karaoke backing tracks. I use the multipad audio link as the main source of sounds and enhance it with various styles. This can be fun. If you try to reverse the order where the style become the primary source of sound - then sync it it together is beast and it takes a lot of time to edit the WAV/MP3 to the correct point. You rightly pointed that out in your post.

I just wish that Yamaha can give us the option to use the WAV/MP3 like how we can use REX file.

Midi Question: Is there a way to convert WAV/MP3 to midi, which can then be used in Style Creator or Style Magic YA? Maybe some of of the midi experts can chime in here or Tomasz (creator of Style Magic YA).

Regards...

GTS...

[anandmaloo]

Hi Marcus and Others,

I have got my hands onto around 200 tabla Rx2 drum loop files and I am very eager to  load them into Genos but only after testing them. The easier and known option to me is load them into YEM and import into GENOS. But I guess it will then create around 200 drumkits, styles and pads on my system. Quite a system hog.

Since I don't have the recycle software (and the demo wont load external loops) is this the only way I have to preview my 200 RX2 files or is there a way I can listen to them before finally loading them on the GENOS. (The YEM does play the drum kit it creates on PC, but it is just every note and note the complete style so I cannot actually hear how the loop / style will sound)

And yes, how many of these drumkits can be created by GENOS. Is there a cap on the maximum.

Regards

Anand
 

[GTS]

Hi Anand,

I have loaded a ton of tabla, dholak and other Rx2 loops into my T5 and have not run into any limitations in terms of max number of drumkits created. I easily have more than 200 files in my T5. The issue I run into is that for the styles I have created using these files becomes a maintenance nightmare whenever I load a new PPI file. The existing custom styles I have created would lose their mapping to the new files after every load.  Because of this I have been very picky on how often new PPI files are load.

I am sure there is a way prevent this from happening but I have not been able to resolve it. My workaround is I have a working PPI file and a test PPI file. I use the test PPI to add new files to sample the loops and try them in the KB. If the new loops are worth keeping, I would remap my styles to test file and make this PPI my working one. I have gotten faster at remapping but it takes over 4 hours for the T5 to load a PPI file. This could be because the PPI is almost 1GIG in size. Lots of custom loops.

I am not aware of any free software that will preview Rx2 files, but if the loops you have can be freely shared, I can convert them to wavs for you if you want to go that route.

Regards,
GTS...

[anandmaloo]

Thanks GTS for your info.  Your workaround with a test ppi file is interesting. But I think there lies the problem (I am not not sure but I think so)

From what I have read in the last week in this forum, the trick is not to uninstall or change a Pack once you have mapped registrations, styles and pad to it. You only add the test loops in a new pack but you do not change or modify the kits you have mapped from. Once deleted, other new kits will take its allotted space. So always keep constant the mapped kits. Only change the test kits.

Others may correct if my assumption is wrong. I am quite new to YEM

Regards

Anand

[bernamato]

I know that multipad don't read MP3 but only WAV. The drum track read only wav files. Why do you use in all your speaking the term "WAV/MP3"?

[GTS]

Hi bernamato,

The end goal is to get WAV or MP3 files into the T5 as REx files. This is done by converting MP3 to WAV and then WAV as REx files using the software ReCycle 2.0.

Regards,
GTS.

[pjd]

Hi --

I've started to take a look at the audio style file format itself:

http://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,44225.0.html

Unfortunately, this is still a long way from a practical method or tools.

All the best -- pj

[GTS]

Thanks pjd, I will be following the thread.

GTS...

[bernamato]

HI GTS,
when I convert the mp3 file to Rex the size grow up. For example mp3 size is 600KB. After the conversion the Rex file will be 2MB. So I don't understand why do I make a conversion, or I am wrong in something?

Thank you for your attention.

Regrds,

[GTS]

Hi bernamato,

It should be expected when you convert a mp3 file to wav that the file size will be significantly larger. It would be great if Recycle could have used mp3 files to create the Rex file and maintain a small file size, but as of now that is not the case.

My approach is to make wav file to the smallest length to get a usable loop, and then convert that into a Rex file. This approach does have expansion usage limitations, but it has opened up a new world of options for my music genre which Yamaha is very lame in providing support for.

Regards,

GTS...

[Seagull29]

Hi,
with the new Yamaha's software, Audio Phraser, you can directly build yours own Audio Style without using Rex Files. I tried it to make one test and played it on my T5. It works very well. But you must only use Wave audio files.

[GTS]

Seagull29,

Thank you for that info. I will be checking it out.

GTS...