s970 & s770 erratic behaviour / faulty [A] to [J] buttons - is yours affected?

[Rrgramps]

I was really planning to purchase a 970 last week, but I'm postponing that until or if Yamaha fixes those buttons. 

My 3000 has never given me a bit of problems all the 10-12 years I've owned it. I only wanted better sounds and a more up-to-date screen.  Something that could last me another 10 years without having to send it in. 

I'm going to be near a GC later today, and you betcha I'll be looking at keyboards. But it may not be an arranger, because I'm wanting to give Yamaha some time to clear up this discrepancy.

[textbook]

You have bear in mind that NOT all the 770 and 970 boards are affected Trent, many on here don't have the issue, it's only some. 
I obviously understand why it may put some buyers off,  but always remember most dealers have easy return policies and as in the case of Jack his dealer offered a refund as did mine too if I wanted it.   The keyboard is excellent otherwise and you may get one that doesn't have the A-E/F-J button problem..yes it's a small gamble, but you can always send it back if your unlucky.

I'm phoning them again tomorrow just to see exactly what if anything they plan to do about the ones that are affected, and then I'll decide what to do,  I don't really want to lose it because it really is that good.  + I'll try another system reset..nothing to lose.

Difficult decision.

[travlin-easy]

I suspect this is something that is not at all software related, but something as simple as a lose plug that connects to the switch board. I suggest contacting Steve Demming at Yamaha CA and I'm confident he can help solve your problem.

Good Luck,

Gary

[Joe H]

Gary,

I've been one step ahead of you for awhile.  Steve is not so easy to reach these days since being promoted to Manager of Customer Support, Yamaha USA.

But... none the less, I sent an email to Steve on January 8 and did not receive a reply.  So I sent Steve another email today letting him know there was a perceived problem among users that Yamaha was not responding to reports of the button problem.

I got a very quick reply from him asking me to email details so when he called me he would have answers and not questions.

Here's the good news! 

Steve went to an S970 at his disposal and was able to duplicate the button problem!  He checked with folks in the UK who were saying there was a "sticky button" problem.  Steve said engineers in Japan have been made aware of this issue.  After we talked on the phone he sent me another email requesting the serial number of my keyboard so he could add it to "the official list of units exhibiting this behavior"

I sent him the serial numbers of both my keyboard and my brothers S970 as well (he has the button problem too) which by the way were sequential,  meaning my brother's board came off the assembly line right behind mine.  I told him we got our keyboards in August 2015 and the dealer had at least 2 other boards in that same shipment.

So... Yamaha Japan is looking at the problem now.  Steve personally did not think it was a hardware problem. I shared with him a lot of what the exchange has been posted here.  He said to let you all know it is now on Yamaha's radar.

Let's keep our fingers crossed we will see a firmware fix.  When I suggested it could be a hardware problem like the PSR S900 display module... he said Yamaha will have to address whatever is necessary to fix it.

So... use this information to your advantage. Let your local dealer know about this. email or call Yamaha Tech Support and give them your board serial number and when you took delivery.  Tell them Japan knows of the problem and more reports on the button problem are needed and please forward your report of the problem.

Cheers,
Joe H

[textbook]

Thanks Joe...I intended to ring Yamaha UK anyway tomorrow, and possibly keeping my dealer in the picture too may be prudent.

but thank you for the interesting and positive update, keep up the good work,  it's much appreciated.

Cameron

[androidgalaxyman]

Gary,

I've been one step ahead of you for awhile.  Steve is not so easy to reach these days since being promoted to Manager of Customer Support, Yamaha USA.

But... none the less, I sent an email to Steve on January 8 and did not receive a reply.  So I sent Steve another email today letting him know there was a perceived problem among users that Yamaha was not responding to reports of the button problem.

I got a very quick reply from him asking me to email details so when he called me he would have answers and not questions.

Here's the good news! 

Steve went to an S970 at his disposal and was able to duplicate the button problem!  He checked with folks in the UK who were saying there was a "sticky button" problem.  Steve said engineers in Japan have been made aware of this issue.  After we talked on the phone he sent me another email requesting the serial number of my keyboard so he could add it to "the official list of units exhibiting this behavior"

I sent him the serial numbers of both my keyboard and my brothers S970 as well (he has the button problem too) which by the way were sequential,  meaning my brother's board came off the assembly line right behind mine.  I told him we got our keyboards in August 2015 and the dealer had at least 2 other boards in that same shipment.

So... Yamaha Japan is looking at the problem now.  Steve personally did not think it was a hardware problem. I shared with him a lot of what the exchange has been posted here.  He said to let you all know it is now on Yamaha's radar.

Let's keep our fingers crossed we will see a firmware fix.  When I suggested it could be a hardware problem like the PSR S900 display module... he said Yamaha will have to address whatever is necessary to fix it.

So... use this information to your advantage. Let your local dealer know about this. email or call Yamaha Tech Support and give them your board serial number and when you took delivery.  Tell them Japan knows of the problem and more reports on the button problem are needed and please forward your report of the problem.

Cheers,
Joe H

Hi Joe,

Thanks for your tireless effort. we been very much happy about it would be a firmware issue. according to your input can we wait for while?

Thanks

Regards
androidgalaxyman

[Joe H]

Hard to say when we will see a fix... but it's good to know Yamaha has finally heard us.

Joe H

[Rrgramps]

I obviously understand why it may put some buyers off,  but always remember most dealers have easy return policies and as in the case of Jack his dealer offered a refund as did mine too if I wanted it.   The keyboard is excellent otherwise and you may get one that doesn't have the A-E/F-J button problem..yes it's a small gamble, but you can always send it back if your unlucky.

Difficult decision.

I live way out in the country, in a very rural area of southern Indiana. The GC dealer (60 miles) I visited last night did not have a 970; therefore, I'm forced into online purchasing.

Question is, which online dealer would honor a quick return if my keyboard exhibits this defect?

[Joe H]

Trent,

Good question.  While I bought my S970 from my local dealer (in town) my brother bought from this dealer also because of the good price quote.  He is 1700 miles away.  He and I have discussed this issue.  He will either have to find an authorized Yamaha Service Center close to him or ship it back to the dealer he bought it from. 

Question is... will Yamaha cover the 2-way shipping costs under warranty if it is a hardware problem.  I don't think we will get an answer to that question until the time comes it is determined to be a hardware fix.  That's when the dealer comes into play as a go-between.

I would think Yamaha bears the responsibility to make good at whatever cost to them.

Joe H

[textbook]

I live way out in the country, in a very rural area of southern Indiana. The GC dealer (60 miles) I visited last night did not have a 970; therefore, I'm forced into online purchasing.

Question is, which online dealer would honor a quick return if my keyboard exhibits this defect?

I'm sure a few of our USA based members will suggest a few reputable dealers over there, as they will likely have similar return policies to ours in the UK,  but being UK based unfortunately I can't help.

On the question of cost of return postage which Trent mentioned,  in the UK the procedure is that your dealer will usually arrange the collection and then they send it to Yamaha, who then return it to the dealer once fixed and they send it to you with no expense to you,  it costs you nothing other than the inconvenience of being without your board for a few weeks.  Which is why this one of mine has not been returned,  though when speaking to my dealer this afternoon they reminded me that they are happy to do this if I wished... so that option is always there as you have a 2yrs warranty with Yamaha,  many UK dealers give a extra year or two more on top of the 2yrs.  One dealer I use gives 5yrs.

If your sending it to Yamaha yourself,  then unless Yamaha has offered to collect it,  you may need to pay the shipping costs to them yourself,   that's how it generally works in the UK but as Joe said Yamaha may well cover the cost themselves,  you would really need to ask them.  This is why most owners return them via their dealer who usually collect it.

Not sure how competitive their price is, but Amazon is always an option of course,  the main reason I use them and pay for Prime is because it's so dead easy to return things without any expense to you...but depending on price, are they not an option over there. ?

[Joe H]

Trent,

Let's hope they identify the problem soon, then we will know what to do... a simple firmware update, or off to an authorized Yamaha Repair Service Center.

By the way, in the US, there are repair centers that do not actually sell musical instruments but only do repair work for dealers who sell many name-brand audio and digital instrument products.  So in my brother's case, he may have a Yamaha authorized repair center where he lives.

Joe H

[Happy Jack]

Trent,

Let's hope they identify the problem soon, then we will know what to do... a simple firmware update, or off to an authorized Yamaha Repair Service Center.

By the way, in the US, there are repair centers that do not actually sell musical instruments but only do repair work for dealers who sell many name-brand audio and digital instrument products.  So in my brother's case, he may have a Yamaha authorized repair center where he lives.

Joe H

   Hi, Trent:

    disclaimer: forgive the trespass here of an ex-psr-s770 owner 

       Couriers:   Don't know about USA,  but here in UK,  a couple of couriers won't insure keyboards.  Either that, or they limit the maximum liabilty amount.   So you'd need a careful reading of the T&Cs.

     We're only talking about a  'When things can go wrong' scenario here.  :-) 

    Have only a single experience of receiving a keyboard with impact damage (not visible by the packaging),  but which got promptly returned.

   The PSR-S770/970's box with its suspension foam inserts is good for general purpose.  But if one were to send it to Yamaha independently, I'd consider adding a shaped piece of hardboard to the vulnerable side of the box (keys side) to prevent any penetration damage.  Or use a flight case?

   Amen.
     happy regards - Jack

[Rrgramps]

I didn't know if mentioning online music dealers was ok here. 

That said, one that was mentioned above, Amazon, is pretty good about returns.  From my previous experiences, they've almost immediately made a printable label available, and contacted a mail truck to pick it up -- a UPS truck drives right up to the front door, and takes it away! Easy-Peasey.

Kraft, Sweetwater, Musicians Friend, ZZ, Kraft, annd others may do so also. I just haven't returned things to them, although I have purchased from them. 

Side note and OT...
At GC last night, I bought cute little iRig Keys 37 Pro; and am playing it on iPad GarageBand right now.  It's not a 970, but it sure is more fun than an almost 70-year old should have.  LOL

[Happy Jack]

  Hi there,

   I think it is okay to name-drop in passing, but to avoid any negative comments.  Lots of folk here pay compliments to their keyboard's dealer, or brand of suitable microphones, thumb drives, etc.

  That Amazon idea sounds great for the reasons you cite.  Me, I'll be back pronto when there's a definite fix for the 'button blight'.  I emphasise I refer to those few instances of naughty A-J buttons. (ahem). 

  "..It's not a 970, but it sure is more fun than an almost 70-year old should have.  LOL"

  Welcome to the Codgers' Corner of psrtutorial.  You are not alone, sir! :-)

  happy regards,
  Jack

[textbook]

Yes as Jack said,  I don't think praising up a dealer is frowned upon as indeed it might help other users,  though if one were to use the forum purely as a platform to discredit a particular dealer, then that's another matter, and I'm sure is against forum rules.

I've only bought one Keyboard from Amazon,  which was a Yamaha E443 for my granddaughter early last year and a superb keyboard it was too for just over £200, and ALL it's buttons worked too...lol
I use Amazon a lot, I recently returned a Bose speaker which wasn't exactly cheap, but didn't come up to my expectations not for Bose anyway,  and all I had to do was drop it off at our newsagents shop a couple mile away,(one of Amazons Collection points)  where they swipe the bar code, and when I returned home 10mins later there was a email waiting for me saying they had already processed my refund.  You can't get any better than that,  but you only have 30days to return remember, and always ensure it's Amazon that's selling it.
On-line music dealers tend to offer better deals, and generally I've found most of them in the UK very good indeed, but like everywhere there will be the odd one who don't want to know after they have your cash,  but that's the case the world over, so recommendations from other members can be useful.

Sorry for going off topic..

Cameron

[Joe H]

Here's another update.

My brother has firmware v1.03.  He has been busy with other things but did a System Reset today and the result he described was... "a 95% reduction in the button problem".  He will install v1.04 and let me know if the button problem returns.  I suspect the button problem will return in full force.

This is consistent with my experience.  I have shared this information with Steve Deming at Yamaha and suggested that maybe there is a bug in the installer program.     Who knows!

Joe H

[textbook]

It was a thought Joe,  but my first 970 was on v1.03 it may even have had a earlier firmware I cant remember,  but it was certainly I that updated it to 1.04 when it was released, and that first 970 did it pretty much from day 1,  in fact I recall mentioning it in passing a couple of times in posts where I asked if anyone else had experienced the problem and that was back in late September/October,  but I don't recall making a specific thread/new topic on the subject.. IOW I didn't make a big issue of it at the time because I probably thought it was the way I was pressing the keys.

Also no-one's going to be overly keen in the thought of sending their new board back, so I tended to ignore it TBH.,  but based on my own experience having used both firmware versions on that 1st board,  I didn't see any difference at all Joe,  either for the better or worse.

Cameron

[Joe H]

Cameron,

Well here's another theory... the new PSRs have a much faster processor than previous models, so your post about writing some time-delay code could make sense if the (old) code is getting processed much faster than before.

But I'm not a programmer, so I can have fun speculating what the actual cause is.           

LOL

Joe H

[textbook]

It makes good logical sense to me too Joe,  in fact when I suggested adding a few milliseconds delay after it got a key press  to the UK Yamaha Customer support tech on Thursday he also thought it would likely resolve the issue,  but when I asked if it was likely to result in a firmware update in the future he was non-committal.   I did explain that there are owners who are happy to hang onto their boards as long as they know something would be resolved and forthcoming in the future at some point,  but again non-committal.

He did say they are aware of the issue and are monitoring this thread closely,  adding that if users  press on the high spot of the button it works okay, which on my boards has seemed to help I agree..but no really positive comment from their UK Tech people at the moment.

However in fairness to Yamaha,  I do realise that these fixes can and do take time to explore and implement, and 4 times he said they were happy to check it out to ensure it worked to specification if I wished to return it via my dealer who would forward it to them to be checked over, at all times being non-committal,  which is why I've not disclosed the persons name, as he was quite a friendly helpful guy  but AIS he couldn't give any assurances of what may or may not happen in the future other that say they are monitoring the situation, and also watching this thread for developments...

Cameron

[Roger Brenizer]

Hi Joe H and  Cameron,

This has nothing to do with Yamaha Instruments; however, I can tell you both as a programmer that some of the survey software I wrote would cease to function with the newer GPS data collectors because of the microprocessor speed.  So to resolve the issue I would add a delay in the coding, an extremely easy thing to do, and then we would test the program with the offending data collector.  If it didn't function correctly, I just continued increasing the delay, minutely, until the issue was resolved.  If this is, in fact, what the issue is on both the S970 and S770 it should be a very easy fix.

[textbook]

I fully agree Roger I too have some experience of programming, mainly assembler and c++,   which is why I suggested a few milliseconds delay loop in previous posts,  AYS dead easy to implement,  but it should work to help to stop it picking up that double bounce,  but I suppose it takes time to go through all their channels and testing before it comes to fruitition..if indeed it ever does.     Which is the frustrating part because they don't tell you anything.   It's just as well it's a minor annoying problem rather that a real major one.
I certainly wouldn't go as far as to say it's nothing to do with Yamaha Instruments, if it's not Yamaha then who is responsible, it's not made by Ford or Sony.  Do Yamaha not write their own firmware for their instruments. ? It would be natural to assume they do.

Cameron

[Joe H]

Rodger and Cameron,

While a somewhat a annoying problem, I find your last exchange interesting.  There are smart people at Yamaha.  At least we have an advocate inside Yamaha (Steve Deming) who has acknowledged the problem, who has experienced the problem first hand, and is a voice that is listened to from the inside.

All we can do is wait.  I can't imagine this button issue NOT being fixed.  If Japan engineers now know of the bug, then I'm sure they are digging for it and will find a fix.

I think because of the nature of the bug, it has slipped on by a lot of folks.  It's subtle, not obvious.  It's irregular and unpredictable.  It's like a cat and mouse thing. As a beta tester for Michael Bedesem,  I have to establish specific patterns of error and hopefully be able to reproduce those errors reliably before Michael can find the bug and fix the problem.

So we wait... with a smile and play our keyboards!   

Cheers,
Joe H

[Roger Brenizer]

Hi Joe,

Yes, Steve Demming is truly an advocate.  Right after I purchased my Tyros 4 I had some questions about music being used on this keyboard, relative to copyright issues, and Steve was very quick to get to the bottom of it for me.

Relative to you being a beta tester, not only did I test my own software but was a beta tester for a major land survey software company in Canada and also a major company here in the United States.

The problem a programmer faces, when they make an alleged fix to the software, is that although it may fix the issue at hand, it may well cause another problem in another part of the program.  Sometimes you just end up chasing your own tail...LOL!!!

This is an interesting topic and I will be interested to see how it all plays out.

[Joe H]

"The problem a programmer faces, when they make an alleged fix to the software, is that although it may fix the issue at hand, it may well cause another problem in another part of the program.  Sometimes you just end up chasing your own tail...LOL!!! "

YEP!

Joe H

[Dcall]

well I did the little test and yes my keyboard has the button issue. Not really to concerned with  it myself as I don't flip around much and I would not even noticed it. However, since I like to upgrade a lot, it brings the problem of selling it. I sell it and whomever gets it may be fussy and complain and want a refund ect. So this post is on my radar and hoping its a firmware fix. fingers crossed....

[textbook]

Yes that is basically how most of us feel,  and Happy Jack mainly sent he's back and had a refund more or less for that reason,  because as word spreads about this issue even though quite minor depending how you look at...yes I'm sure it will affect 2nd hand prices, or certainly potential for comeback when you sell it,  because it has button issues, and I fully understand his reason for doing so.

Late last year Yamaha released the A3000,  which is set above the 770 and shares many of 970 features,  but NO live control knobs or Pitch and Modulation wheels, it just has a joystick instead, which I know some people like, but the only joystick I want to use is on my PS4 gaming console.  Anyway they have priced it a couple hundred ££ below the 970.  It shares the same 512mb expansion memory of the 970 plus other things including the exact same shaped A-E/F-J buttons as the 770 and 970 models as shown below.

Now because the A3000 uses the same appearance button, has any user bought one yet?  and if so do the A-E/F-J buttons work perfectly on that model ?  or is this problem just 770/970 models ?

Whenever I look at the shape of the top of those buttons I keep asking myself.... why did Yamaha in their wisdom, because they are pretty clever people and don't do things for no reason, so WHY did they put a slope on the A-E and F-J buttons ?  what was their LOGIC ?...when all the other 133 are flat topped except those 10 buttons.   Now ALL the other 133 flat topped buttons work fine...fact!...but the 10 sloped topped ones do not,  whichever way you press those  10 buttons, even when pressed in the centre will have a slight natural effect of pressure being applied slightly more on the raised side because it touches your finger first, so in theory the button is being tilted a little when you press it, and due to the looseness of the buttons are not being depressed squarely to the PCB contacts below so it too  does sit squarely across the PCB contacts either, so occasionally a good clean contact is not achieved.
However Yamaha support techs say we should press these buttons on top of the raised part of the buttons, and IME it does improve things, so is that because we are no longer pressing down on a sloped top and therefore might reduce the tendency to tilt a little.

The fact is, if you press on something which has a notable angle it has to apply side pressure as well as down pressure,  which will encourage the object to change course.  (simple law of physics) Think of Snooker/Pool balls the whole game is based on that principle.  So out of a total of 143 buttons on a 770/970 its only the 10 with the sloping tops giving problems, the other 133 buttons which has a flat area on the top of them all work okay.  Coincidence or not ?

Look at the picture below at the sloping shape of those buttons and ask yourself,  Why did Yamaha shape them that way ?  as surely there was a reason,  to make it look different ?.. to make it work better ?...or to make it work worse ?..without realising it.
WHY DID YAMAHA PUT THOSE SLOPING TOPS ON THESE BUTTONS ?  where common-sense might suggest buttons should be pushed in squarely.  Some users say theirs work perfectly, so are there some boards with misaligned PCB contact panels below those 10  A-E/F/J   buttons which might give a similar symptom.


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[Joe H]

Well in the short term, I recommend a System Reset by holding down the right-most white and power-on the keyboard.  You will see a message indicating the system is being initialized.

This should reduce the problem to a minimum.  It's not a "fix"... just an improvement. 

BTW... I press the buttons right in the middle and they work fine that way for me.  After my last experience with Yamaha Tech Support, I'm inclined to think some of us know more than they do.  Having said that, I think they have a tough job with a large case load and they do the best they can.

Cheers,
Joe H

[textbook]

In the short term Joe,  that's all we really can do 

In fact if one looks closely, the 2 rows (16 buttons) at the bottom of the screen also have a slight slope to them,  but barely noticeable so I can only conclude they added the angled tops merely for aesthetics.
I was grabbing at straws I know...lol..but it does make one wonder in view all the other 133 buttons work fine.
Anyway...  I hope they try adding that delay after it gets the first press...fingers xxx.

I also wondered how A3000 owners have got on with theirs,  but TBH on comparing them earlier I doubt many will buy the A3000 instead opting for the 970,  personally I think the A3000 seems a strange marketing decision, and it's price needs to fall a little more for one not to buy the 970 so it sits more midway price-wise between the 770 and 970.

[Joe H]

Cameron,

The A3000 is targeted at the Oriental / Middle Eastern Market (about 2 billion people).  Many of the styles and Voices are different.  There is also dedicated Tuning buttons for Eastern music.  The Joy Stick is necessary to play (and better for) Turkish and Iranian and Indian styles of music.

BTW... there is an Assign Button for LIVE CONTROL on the A3000... which is implemented with the Joy Stick rather than knobs.  I can't see how that works very well though unless the Joy Stick is NOT spring-loaded to bring it back to center(s) when you let go of it.  So the A3000 Joy Stick can be used for any of the LIVE CONTROL parameters to modify the Live Arpeggiator as well Pitch Bend and Modulation.

Joe H

[androidgalaxyman]

Hi Joe/ Textbook,

I had a doubt on updates. as a functional design , the common behavior will be under single button object. say example single click or double click. could be the chance, the mutipad button update on V.04 will affected the core areas. so can we assume like the v.03 is lesser and v.04 is more when consider the frequency of issues?

i believe the design of button one edge is elevated another one depressed, will may indicate, we should follow the proper press on those sides

Thanks

Regards
androidgalaxyman