Style Creator Initialization

[rattley]

Greetings!

My Genos2 was a welcome change to my musical endeavors. I need to get better versed on the Style Creator. I watched one of Leigh Wilbraham's videos. He showed how to make 4 variations with the onboard Style Creator. He made it look so easy and it sounded great too!  I know I can do this.  His video ignited a flame within!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sny72j2rTjw&t=150s

The video was made with Genos1 and is totally relevant for Genos2. I would like to someday see what's new and different with the Genos2 Style Creator.  He opened the Style Creator and immediately initialized the default style. The manual says to first load a style with similar characteristics. Is this necessary?  Are you telling the Style Creator some other information it will use in the creation?   And when you initialize the style to clear all the parts does any other information remain?  An example.......I load a nice waltz style. I then initialize it and record my parts, but my recorded parts are played as a hip hop style. Would it matter if I never loaded that waltz style first?  Somewhere I thought somebody talked about this. Maybe things remain in the CASM section, which is why you should start things with a similar genre style. I hope I've explained this correctly? Another thing to experiment with. Best wishes.  -charley

[BogdanH]

When you execute Initialize Style, complete existing style content is deleted and on top of the screen you get "NewStyle" (for style name). Again: everything style related is deleted and you get new empty style. Now you can define initial parameters (Time Signature, Tempo, etc.) and start creating actual style -we usually start with Main A variation.
A friendly advice: Reference Manual(page 20)
and try, try, try! -is the only way to success.

Bogdan

[rattley]

Hello!

Thanks for the reply.  What would be the reason Yamaha says to start with a similar style if it doesn't matter then??  Unless you just want to edit certain style parts??  I thought I might be on to something. I thought the recorded style parts and style name were the only things removed in an initialization. I was hoping there was something else left in that initialized file that helped determine the genre and inner workings of a style. Where in the program would that be determined?  Just in the style parts you record??  Where is this magic Yamaha process happening in style creation?  Or is this magic just during style playback?

Forgive me Bogdan for asking so many questions as you already answered my post. I have become infatuated over anything style related lately. My Genos2 isn't always nearby where I can try things out while fresh in my mind. Later I will " try try try " on the real thing.  -charley

[valimaties]

Hi Charley,
Let me start by saying I don't use midi files! Off-topic?!  No, why? I'm not using midi files because somehow I will be tied about song's verse/chorus/etc length. I cannot do live things using midi. So, I think you already gues I'm using only styles.
I owned for many years Korg PA series (PA2X, PA3X and right now PA5X) and Tyros 2, Tyros 5 and right now Genos1 (I don't know if will be G2 with me). I can say that speaking of style creation and what those two TOTLs have, Korg is far better. The Yamaha's style creator is good, you can deal with it, you can do elementary things on it. Now, using some software like Style Magic YA you can achieve more than what internal style creator gives. For example, I recently add some guitar arppeggios from my Genos in style. It is a complex process for a begginer in this style creation world, but is not so complex if you understand it. I have time for doing this and I like it, as long as I'm a software developer as well, is somehow easy for me. But there are people which cannot afford such loosing time, or they simply does not want to, so for them is simply very good the internal style creator. Again, for me Yamaha's style creator is far the weakest function from all arrangers of all big brands. My 2 cents.

Now, for you is better to watch some videos to learn how it works, what you can do with it. Some extraordinary videos made our colegue Casper on his Youtube channel. There are a lot of usefull videos there, including those which are style creator related. Watch them.

Regards,
Vali

[pedro_pedroc]

Hello.

You can watch my tutorial of creating a style from scratch as well.
Turn on the English Subtitles.

Enjoy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQBeKyPmxs8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAB2ruTOBWI

Pedro

[BogdanH]

While I agree with Vali about Yamaha's Style Creator having certain limitations, there's something that needs to be clarified:
By using Style Creator alone, we can do everything that 95+% of interested creators will ever do!

I can read many times, how difficult it is to create good enough styles with Style Creator and that one should get "this and that.. and that" tool to overcome obstacles -and that scares many before they even start trying. Or some get (wrong) impression that there's a shortcut to start making great styles quicker.

I create all styles from scratch by using Style Creator only. Maybe they're not "pro" (if interested, see my videos in signature below), but I think they sound pretty decent for a hobbyist. And over the time I realized, if there's something I can't make, then that's usually because I don't know how to do it. And I learn... and I try.. and I succeed.

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan

[DerekA]

I think you start with a similar style when your goal is to only change some parts, whether that be voices or actual patterns, or use style assembly to mix in parts from other styles.

[pjd]

What would be the reason Yamaha says to start with a similar style if it doesn't matter then??  Unless you just want to edit certain style parts??  I thought I might be on to something. I thought the recorded style parts and style name were the only things removed in an initialization. I was hoping there was something else left in that initialized file that helped determine the genre and inner workings of a style. Where in the program would that be determined?  Just in the style parts you record??  Where is this magic Yamaha process happening in style creation?  Or is this magic just during style playback?
-charley

Hi Charley --

Your many questions kind of answer your first overall question -- Why does Yamaha suggest starting with an existing style.

There are a lot of details that go into a style, not just the MIDI notes. Reading through the Style Creator section in the manual,
it's easy to get overwhelmed. And, many people do get overwhelmed. 

Heratch Touresian (product specialist at Yamaha) goes further and suggests Style Assembly, which lets people recombine parts of existing styles. This is a good starting point since a person doesn't need to know everything in order to do anything. From there, an interested person can build up their knowledge.

Style Creation is not as simple as recording a MIDI song, unfortunately. Styles have transposition rules, ya-da, ya-da... It's probably not a productive thing to jump into the deep end of the swimming pool without knowing how to hold one's breath. 

Stay encouraged, but maybe start slow like Style Assembly?

All the best -- pj

[mikf]

ph has it exactly right. There are many settings that need to be fully understood to get styles to work properly. And those settings are not that simple to grasp. By starting with a style that is even remotely close to what you want to create, you can piggy back from the settings already made by an expert. That's a short cut that you should take to start with. Even then you may run foul of some of those settings here and there, but then you learn in smaller steps.
Making a complete style is a mammoth task, there are 4 variations, 3 intros, 3 endings, fills, ........... and short cuts are welcome. And that all assumes you are a good enough musician and player to get them right.
It's best to move forward in small steps. Start by mastering style assembly- that is easy and quite satisfying. Then try changing a couple of tracks. Then try a simple intro. These things will probably push you into learning about some of the settings.
By this time you will start to appreciate the scale of the task, the musical expertise required to properly orchestrate and arrange a style, the learning curve on the system and nuances of the settings, .......and then quietly give up. Most do. Maybe you will have the perseverance and skill set to stick with it and become expert.......but I'll bet a hundred bucks you don't.
I have much more musical training and experience than most on this forum, I had already done some conventional arranging and orchestration, and also had a technical background, and of course this forum to ask questions ..... so it probably wasn't beyond me. But I soon figured out that I wasn't prepared to put in all the time needed to become competent at something I really did not need.
But you might be, so good luck! I've got the hundred bucks set aside
Mike

[rattley]

Great post Mike!

So...... Is that $100 an incentive or guaranteed failure??   LOL!!   I must admit that a few months ago, when we first started hearing about the upcoming Genos2 and it's "improved" style creator I got excited about it. I was gung ho on making some original styles, yet was so glib to think it would be easy.  The addition of the MIDI Song to Style program made it sound like any nube could make a style.  Click Click a thousand times and I still couldn't "create" anything I would share. Where are all those others who praised that program the first few weeks it was released?  I thought we would be flooded with new user created styles. It seems the excitement faded quickly. Mine did!  I fell off my high horse when I tried making a few styles. It was true before as it is now. Making usable (and I'm not saying anything close to professional) styles is not easy.

I'm nowhere near the quitting point. My style making "hobby" will just take longer and may indeed become to difficult and cumbersome. On the other hand all these posts, youtube videos, manuals have still peaked my interest. I'm actually understanding the hows and whys of style construction. It really is quite fascinating when it all comes together and works. That's really all I want.  And the added satisfaction of being able to do something that has been deemed difficult makes it a challenge too. 

So...Baby steps it is for now. I need to apply all the instruction I have loaded my brain with and get moving. "Just do it" I have been told. It sounds like an easy request but I still feel some reluctance because of all the things I don't know. When you get older, at least in my case, learning doesn't come easy anymore. That dog you couldn't teach new tricks to just needs some patience and understanding.  I know because that dog is me!!!    -charley

[Sokratis1974]

As you rightly said, creating a complete Style from scratch is a painstaking and particularly complicated process. And I honestly have no intention of either scaring anyone or putting them down, I'm just commenting on something that we all understand the degree of difficulty it contains. So, I would also like to say my opinion about Yamaha's Style Creator and specifically the Genos 1 which I have and have been working with since 2018. So, in general Style Creator is "ΟΚ" for someone to do (as very rightly mentioned by others), some elementary things. I have really loved the "style assembly" function of the style creator as well as the excellent possibility in quantize to be able to set a percentage (e.g. 60%, 40% etc.) and not an absolute quantize percentage of 100% as is the case with all other companies, which often makes the midi sequence sound robotic.
Unfortunately, however, when the requirements are much more than (basic), then computer work is the only way to go and of course the help of Style Magic or CASM Editor is required, and this is where things get very, very complicated. I've said it many times and I'll say it again when I get the chance. Honestly, it is incomprehensible to me for a company like Yamaha not to allow us to record Sustain midi message (CC 64) neither onboard nor via daw, except by converting the sustain message to note length (only with daw). I really find it incomprehensible, as it is also a shame that we must go through such complicated situations to have a Maj, Min version either in variations, or in Intro, Ending. If Yamaha provided even these two functions onboard things would be very different (for the better).
So, I will tell you the following: As you may know I am a professional musician and until today I live exclusively from music, just as I am also a professional developer (styles, sounds) but to date my professional projects in the field of styles are mainly Greek (and as you may know I am Greek). However, I have never made a complete package (set) for another company, apart from Korg, and this is because so far Korg is the only company that provides literally EVERYTHING and without the need for any external software to create anything at all complete (like the presets), and without any restrictions whatsoever. I must also say that Ketron now with the Event has come quite close to Korg, but again Korg is still in the lead in this matter. So, the last Greek professional project I made for Korg is called Ultimate Musicorama and it took 8 years of work to complete. It was a particularly demanding project, since I had set the bar very high, and I would like to tell you that in two years I made 180 styles (100% complete like the presets) exclusively using Pa3x. I did not use a computer trace or any other (external help) to make them. Here are some demos of these styles and anyone who wants to look and listen to the Playlists entitled: Ultimate Musicorama https://soundcloud.com/sokratis-1974/sets
although many of them may seem too (Greek) to you hehehehe.
On the contrary with Genos from 2018 to 2020 that I started to work on professionally in my live, I didn't manage to make more than a few necessary styles that I needed, and that with a lot of effort, due to the very serious limitations that exist.
Unfortunately, Yamaha in the creative part in my opinion is the worst of all and this really makes me very sad because I have loved the sound of Yamaha. But for my own work and especially for the country I live in (Greece), the requirements we have cannot in any case be covered by presets (styles, sounds), so we must make everything ourselves, and luckily, I have the blessing to be able to do it.
But I am very sorry, because in a short time I will be forced to part with Genos which will be replaced by Event, because I must go creatively in things that even Genos 2 does not allow me to do, and which of course Event can provide me these possibilities. I had expectations that Genos 2 would bring new features in this regard but unfortunately, we saw almost no progress. And please don't get me wrong, because I'm not saying (and never have) that the Genos 2 is a bad instrument, because anyone who says that probably doesn't know what they're talking about, and I honestly admire the sound of the Genos 1, let alone the Genos 2, but I'm sadly forced to part with it as its holding me back creatively. I don't know if we should expect anything in the future from Yamaha on this matter, but until then, all this makes me (unfortunately) leave Yamaha, regardless without this meaning that I will sell Genos (that will never happen) because regardless of the difficulties I mention, it's an instrument that I've loved for other things, and there's no way it's going away.
Merry Christmas to all!

[BogdanH]

hi Sokratis
The music I play is probably considered as simple (to create styles for) and so I probably don't miss certain features in Style Creator, simply because I didn't need them so far. I'm aware of some limitations (i.e. fill-in is limited to one bar), but this has less to do with what can (or can not) be done musically inside variations.
Before I continue: I don't consider myself as being some expert in creating styles and so I might be wrong on some of my thinking.

...then computer work is the only way to go and of course the help of Style Magic or CASM Editor is required...

I don't have Style Magic and so I guess it makes certain things easier/faster to do -and in that sense, everything is welcome what makes us more productive.
Then you mention CASM Editor. I don't know which one exactly you mean, but all of them that I saw (for example this one) contains only settings which are also available in Style Creator. Maybe there are some tricks, but I see no reason why/when would I need to use CASM Editor.

I'm aware that the difficulty of style creation can be country specific and also depends on music genre we play. Could Style Creator be better? Heck, YES!
But I stand to my claim: Style Creator is sufficient for 95% of hobby musicians -if we are willing to learn.

Bogdan

[Sokratis1974]

hi Sokratis
The music I play is probably considered as simple (to create styles for) and so I probably don't miss certain features in Style Creator, simply because I didn't need them so far. I'm aware of some limitations (i.e. fill-in is limited to one bar), but this has less to do with what can (or can not) be done musically inside variations.
Before I continue: I don't consider myself as being some expert in creating styles and so I might be wrong on some of my thinking.
I don't have Style Magic and so I guess it makes certain things easier/faster to do -and in that sense, everything is welcome what makes us more productive.
Then you mention CASM Editor. I don't know which one exactly you mean, but all of them that I saw (for example this one) contains only settings which are also available in Style Creator. Maybe there are some tricks, but I see no reason why/when would I need to use CASM Editor.

I'm aware that the difficulty of style creation can be country specific and also depends on music genre we play. Could Style Creator be better? Heck, YES!
But I stand to my claim: Style Creator is sufficient for 95% of hobby musicians -if we are willing to learn.

Bogdan

Hi Bogdan. I use Style Magic mainly when there are Major and Minor versions, which in my case is a necessary element in several cases.

[BogdanH]

I know this is wrong section to discuss style creation, but because it has already started...

I use Style Magic mainly when there are Major and Minor versions...

-can you be a bit more specific what do you mean?
I ask because, if possible, I prefer to play songs in their original key and with Style Creator I had no problems so far in this regard.

PS. If you prefer, you can also explain to me in PM -because I can imagine this can be kinda boring for some 

Bogdan

[Sokratis1974]

I know this is wrong section to discuss style creation, but because it has already started...
-can you be a bit more specific what do you mean?
I ask because, if possible, I prefer to play songs in their original key and with Style Creator I had no problems so far in this regard.

PS. If you prefer, you can also explain to me in PM -because I can imagine this can be kinda boring for some 

Bogdan

Sorry Bogdan but I'm a bit busy today. We'll talk in detail in email.

[pjd]

I've used Jørgen's CASM editor and OTS editor. Quite a bit. Mostly, I hit a wall working with Mega Voice parts.

http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software.htm

The new Yamaha MIDI Song to Style editor seems to generate a complete SFF GE CASM section and it knows about Mega Voice. I may adopt a workflow using MIDI Song to Style to generate a basic template/base with SFF GE CASM filled out, then Split and Splice the MIDI and non-MIDI style parts. Lately, I've been creating/editing OTS on the Genos itself as the final development step. This lets Genos write out a full style file as the final result. I assume that Yamaha's software knows how to produce a well-formed style file. A-hem. 

I'll test out the new workflow next month when the winter days drag on and on...

Sokratis, I hope you don't forget about us after moving to Event. Thanks for your help and comments!

All the best -- pj

[Sokratis1974]

Sokratis, I hope you don't forget about us after moving to Event. Thanks for your help and comments!

All the best -- pj

Of course not. I have been following this forum for years before I even bought Genos. I continue to do the same everyday. And like I said Genos I'm never going to sell it and of course I'll work it on some occasions in live gigs. Also if I see anything changes in the future at Yamaha it goes without saying that it will be my first choice.
Let's hope!!
Merry Christmas to all!!