The spec of the new genos?

[BogdanH]

Hope it has an intro option where you can play your own chords...

Can you clarify what exactly you mean by that? I ask because we can change chords while intro is playing. Or to be more precise, it depends on how intro is made.
The only difference between Main variations (where we obviously can change chords) and Intros/Endings is, Intros/Endings are executed only once, while Main variations are looped.
Or am I missing something?

Bogdan

[valimaties]

Korg made Intro 2 without a chord progression so user can switch and choose what chord wants. I don't use factory styles but I think there are styles in Genos that preserves the same idea on Intro 2, playing on user's choice.
To be more preciselly, on intro 2 there are 8 measures written in C, or 16 measures, depending on styles. Is like any other main/variation. The last measure in Intro2 is almost evry time a fill.

[musicman100]

Yes thats it have a look here at 3.08 for Korgs 2 intro.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQHSaKVVmF4

[BogdanH]

Ok, I watched that video (Intro 2 explanation even twice) and I must honestly say, that I see no benefit of having that Intro 2 feature. As far I understand, it's the ability that player can pre-define chord sequence for Intro 2. But why would I do that, if (without having that feature) I can play any chord sequence I wish (while intro is running)?
Don't get me wrong, I like Pa5X a lot and maybe I still miss something, but to me it's more a gimmick than a must have feature.

Bogdan

[valimaties]

Ok, I watched that video (Intro 2 explanation even twice) and I must honestly say, that I see no benefit of having that Intro 2 feature. As far I understand, it's the ability that player can pre-define chord sequence for Intro 2. But why would I do that, if (without having that feature) I can play any chord sequence I wish (while intro is running)?
Don't get me wrong, I like Pa5X a lot and maybe I still miss something, but to me it's more a gimmick than a must have feature.

Bogdan

Because Intros are not written like main variations. The example in the video is not so good, he choosed a style which the Intro2 sounds very closely to main variation. More than that, he sang a 8 bar intro on a 4 bars Intro 2. But there are better styles with better Intro2. Sometimes you need that Intro2 to create something like the 5th Variation of the style, because we have to mention that Korg has a great feature on style player: if you double click Intro buttons or endings the keyboard will start a loop on that Intro or Ending. You can easily use an Intro like a variation.

[usaraiya]

Bogdan,

Playing Intro 2 on Pa5X can have different intros for different songs, while Intro 1 and Intro 3 will ALWAYS be the same for ALL songs.
To me, Intro 2 gives me the ability to play different chords for any song.

[BogdanH]

Please bear with me, because I'm obviously not getting it 
Before I continue... yes, I noticed "tap twice" intro feature which I think can be useful in case we run out of main variations. But for now let's stay with that "intro chord change" thing...

As far I understand (hopefully correctly), we can't really change Intro 2 content -because to actually change intro content, we still need to use Style Creator (or whatever it's called in Korg). That is, we can only change chord sequence inside intro. For example, if Intro has 6 bars, then first two bars can play in C, second two bars in F and last two bars in G. Or if we wish, we can define that second two bars will play in G and the last two bars in F chord.
Is that correct so far?
And if I am correct, then why wouldn't I simply play C, F and G sequence while intro is running? I mean, I do that when needed.

Bogdan

[maartenb]

"Chordless" intro's, or "single-chord" intro's, or "playable" intro's is one of the features I dearly, dearly miss on Yamaha keyboards.  Roland had Intro II and Outro II without chords and it was my most used intro. He even says it in the video of the Korg demonstration above: "It's my favorite intro".

It is also a feature that is hard to explain to someone who has never seen it. Yet, once you play with it yourself, you immediately get it and you'll probably never want to miss it again.

There used to be a great video showing this on YouTube, but unfortunately I can't find it anymore.

The current Intro II has a chord progression in it and therefore only usable if your song has the same chord progression. "Chordless" intro's don't have a chord progression in them, so you can play the progression yourself and therefore use the intro for numerous songs.

Even when I left the Roland arranger world more than ten years ago, I still pine for the chordless intro's every time I play my Yamaha arranger. I am not exaggerating.


Maarten

[EileenL]

Why not just play your own intros with just the drum track going. I have seen a lot of players do this.

[maartenb]

Sure, Eileen. But you can have great rhythm changes in Intro II that are different from the standard variations. Again, it's hard to explain to someone who never played with single chord intro's.

As I said, I would like to show you. I just searched through this forum and my posts, but I can't find my post linking to the video.

It seems all posts prior to 2017 have vanished?


Maarten

[ton37]

Quote: It seems all posts prior to 2017 have vanished? ....

That's right @Maarten, as far as I remember there was a technical problem with a backup or something like that at the time, which unfortunately resulted in a lot of information being lost.

[BogdanH]

I think I finally get it, after Maarten mentioned "chordless" and "single chord" and after I tried few onboard styles on my SX700.

On Yamaha, if we choose a longer intro (2 or 3) and start it in any chord, then in most cases chord automatically changes while intro is playing and we have no influence on that chord sequence. It already sounds like intro would be made for specific song and in that case, obviously that intro can't always be used for music of our choice.

If that's what you were trying to explain, then let me just say, that this is not keyboard limitation: this happens because onboard styles (intro's actually) are made that way. If we make a copy of such style and unlock it, we can change such intro behavior in Style Creator.

Bogdan

[pjd]

The current Intro II has a chord progression in it and therefore only usable if your song has the same chord progression. "Chordless" intro's don't have a chord progression in them, so you can play the progression yourself and therefore use the intro for numerous songs.

Maarten

Hi Maarten --

The current style engine supports introductions that follow chords played by the performer.

The CASM NTT/NTR in factory style introductions is set to NTR Root Transpose, NTT Bypass. The "Bypass" forces the style engine to follow the root note and play the preprogrammed progression.

"Chord-less" introductions are no different than MAIN sections: NTR Root Transpose, NTT Melody.

"Chord-less" introductions could be developed if the person has the musical skill (chops) to write a general, widely applicable introductory section. I'd say that musical skill is the real limiting factor, here, not technical.

Hope this info helps -- pj

[maartenb]

Oh, I know and agree it's not a technical limitation. It's just that Yamaha decided to program chord progressions into intro II for all factory styles, which I think is unfortunate.

Maybe Yamaha thinks that it makes the arranger easier to sell in a store, and demonstrators, with all due respect, seem to love spectacular intro's. But in my eyes they are pretty worthless after you bought the instrument, just like the Demo button in the bottom right of the display. While you can easily replace the Demo button for something useful, you can't do that with chord progressions in Intro II.

Yamaha have more than enough musical skills to program chord-less Intro II and Outro II. I just hope they made that decision for Genos 2.


Maarten

[pjd]

Hi Maarten --

I think we're in general agreement on all points. Mike commented (in a different thread?) about not confusing the average user with specialist features. In this case, maybe styles which do not behave in the same consistent, tried-and-true manner. Shucks, DJ styles confused some people.

My spouse and I were discussing musical introductions more generally. Good intros and endings are darned hard to find and/or write. I totally respect the musicians who come up with this stuff!

It would be fun to experiment with "chord-less" intros -- and I will happily fall on my untalented face. 

Take care -- pj