how to create beautiful and real piano sounds

[georges]

Good morning everyone.
A tutorial  written in January 2023, interests me a lot, because I am often looking for good piano sounds.
However, my message includes two questions.
I have an SX900, and the piano sounds to my taste and my ear do not suit me.
I listen to my pianos with high quality headphones or on the keyboard speakers output.
With headphones it is, acceptable, on the speakers of the SX 900 I would say that it is really not good.
I think it comes from the poor quality of the basic speakers.
Often these are very metallic sounds, and the ones I am looking for are full sounds resembling the acoustic concert piano.
So First question. If I buy good quality speakers connected to the SX900, and adjusting my bass, medium etc..... will I have renderings and sounds of good qualities that will allow me to put my piano correctly, and there I will have a satisfaction to listen to my pianos.
Second question. The tutorials and tips given on the site to create and improve sounds are often explained, with general data.
Indeed it is explained to act on such and such parameters, but without precise values..
Has anyone worked and researched improvements for the piano with precise values on settings settings.
To give an example, I succeeded on the Tenor Sax, this research and I came up with quite interesting results. Sometimes I have offered some members friends
I have done this in tabular form with the Excel spreadsheet, and everyone can even modify them, depending on their ear and personal result.
But what I did with my Sax I can't do with the pianos. Remember that one is a wind instrument, and the other is a string instrument, and that the path to good adjustment values is not the same.
I have heard and seen musicians who have produced piano improvements, and the results are surprisingly very good. But they do not give the values of the modified parameters
For information for the sax this led to work on at least 10 parameters
In conclusion: If installing good quality speakers, with output settings, can adjust and allow good piano sounds, in this case I will not seek, to create or modify piano sounds.
Thank you in advance if you can help me.
Regards Georges

Edit: Topic title edited by Roger Brenizer

[DerekA]

Not the asnwer you want. But if excellent piano sounds are what really matters to you, you've picked the wrong instrument. SX900 is a fantastic all-rounder but catn't be expected to excel at everything. Perhaps a dedicated digital piano is what you need.

[Divemaster]

Derek answers the question perfectly. The SX series are ARRANGER keyboards, and they are excellent.
However, an Arranger is never going to suit the needs of an audiophile who is constantly striving for Sound Perfection.

Sure, you can chuck thousands of pounds/dollars at expensive speakers, microphones, DAW programmes and all the rest of it, and with respect you can spend insane amounts of money doing it.
But..... All it tells me is that you didn't choose / buy the right instrument to start with.

Same advice, and it's always been the same. If one
particular instrument is THAT important, then buy that instrument. After all, you wouldn't go shopping for a bicycle if you needed a truck. Likewise, why buy an arranger when you should have bought a piano.

Buy it, play it. That's where the enjoyment is. Trying to micro analyse every nuance of every sound is, to me, a pointless exercise unless you are playing or performing at world class, International Concerto or Soloist levels, and are that gifted a player, and paying hundreds of thousands of pounds on Steinway pianos say. Very very few musicians ever reach those levels of competence or could, frankly, justify the expense.

Life's too short. Just play what you've got. The arranger instruments are pretty good actually. Very very good. Probably the best ever made by Yamaha.


Keith.

[richkeys]

The piano improvement question pops up here regularly and it's always a valid question. But Derek and Keith are correct. In the end an expensive sound system or EQ or output settings won't turn the SX900 arranger pianos into a digital console quality piano, not even close, even if you buy a 1GB piano pack. At least you do find it acceptable using headphones.

In simplest terms it doesn't have the hardware, samples, memory and editing capability to do it. A Montage/MODX synth for a comparison example has much more control and layering to alter a variety of piano waveforms sounds (CFX) by mapping them across different zones of the keyboard with velocity settings etc.  The Genos has the better CFX piano samples but essentially has the same editing features that  SX900 has.

That being said, there's always stuff to try. Below are some links as examples of recent piano discussions here. Also use the search function for comments about expansion packs that offer piano voices. In addition to EQ, reverb and effects, I also increase the velocity settings a bit on many of my voice edits because I find that brings out the sample more. I use Playsounds C7 piano pack and layer it with a variety of pads. Piano and piano pads are actually quite nice on SX900.

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,66103.msg500883.html#msg500883

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,63868.msg485844.html#msg485844

[BogdanH]

hello Georges,
We can describe piano sound with all the words we know (clean, full, rich, vibrant, etc.)... still, when I say this is a good piano voice (has all attributes you described), you will say "no, that's not THAT". What I'm saying is, even if we agree on everything, we can disagree at the end.
And here comes my opinion...

SX900 onboard speakers are quite good for what they're intended: for practicing and performing at home. Of course, what we get/hear depends on Master EQ/Compressor settings on keyboard.
Same as you, I was in doubt about onboard speakers and so I bough a pair of good studio monitors (about 300€). And guess what... at normal loudness (in 3x4m room), the difference is quite subtle. Yes, as I increase loudness the difference becomes more noticeable -simply because onboard speakers can't keep up with power. But this has nothing to do with quality of sound reproduction.
Don't get me wrong: yes, external monitors are better even at the same loudness. But the difference is not that big as one would expect and one can easily end with buyers remorse. Ok, if you buy some good 6" (or bigger) speakers, then you just can't go wrong -but they can be expensive.

Piano voices... In my opinion, they are not really that good in PSR keyboards. They don't sound like a "real" piano -they just sound "pleasant".
And because of that I decided to make a custom voice, where I used audio samples of a real piano. If you're interested, you're welcome to listen a short song on my Youtube channel -keep in mind, that no effects are used (piano voice is at default settings).

What I'm saying is, if you're picky about piano sound, then you either need better keyboard or you buy some good piano voice for SX900 -it's as simple as that.

Bogdan

[pjd]

A few thoughts...

The SX900 Concert Grand piano is a legacy voice on Genos. So, even Yamaha have moved on from the Concert Grand samples to newer CFX samples.

I've been trying out Clavinovas and they are tailored for the piano playing experience. Not only is the sampling better, the Clavinovas have Virtual Resonance Modeling, which adds dynamic resonances. The keybed makes a huge difference, too. (Mike? Mike? Calling Mike.) I get frustrated trying to get subtlety out of a mid-range Yamaha synth keybed. Like trying to get blood out of a turnip.

I would look into layering two or more piano voices to get more depth and maybe a more dynamic timbre. Digital effects can make a difference, too. I know you're looking for specific parameters, etc., but that's the best I can suggest. Sorry.

All the best -- pj

[Dupe]

Rather than using extension speakers on your SX900, have you tried the line output jack as an alternative? This option allows the use of an external amplified sound system. As to how much better the sound quality becomes, is of course trial and error. Another thought... if you can listen through a pair of good-quality headphones may surprise you to how much better your keyboard can sound.
Just a thought.
SX700 player

 

[georges]

Thank you all for your messages regarding piano sounds.
I'll correct one thing. I didn't say I wanted to create a piano sound like a Yamaha concert acoustic piano. I know this is not possible, because my SX900 costs 2000 euros and a concert piano Yamaha ¾ of tail 100.000 euros.
My question was to know, or tell me what parameters are useful, to improve a piano sound.
I don't know if my SX, has a fault but when I play with the  low notes of the lower part of the keyboard, my speakers sizzle and vibrate and transmit an unpleasant sound
I saw and heard on Youtube very good his pianos made by musicians who had modified and improved on their arranger, good piano sound. But these musicians do not give indications on the values of the parameters they have made
I have no pretension to be a great pianist, I am a modest and humble musician, but whether one is big or modest musician this does not prevent, to have a good pleasant sound. The quality of the sound is not the property of the great musicians, it is the property and desire of everyone.
It is like the dictionary it is not reserved only for writers
Of course I can also buy an acoustic upright piano, but the interest with Yamaha arrangers and to be able to play the piano and accompany my melody with styles, pads, arpeggios etc.;
What you can't do with an acoustic piano
Believe that when I play MyWay with a classical piano,  and I play it with a piano voice arranger, accompanied by all means such as style, Harmony arpeggio pad, etc..... it's two different worlds
Now to finish my question on the use of parameters to modify a sound. If Yamaha in these arrangers to create and gives us the opportunity to adjust, change, modify sounds is not for nothing. If you have the mixer, the filter, the EQ, the effects, the chorus reverb it's not to look pretty, it's to use it. But the whole of my tutorial and my question is how to use it to modify a voice.
I talked about this problem with the Yamaha management, they answered that few musicians ask such questions. For them the goal is to sell to make profits, when has all these settings, which I speak about it is not a question of boring them with that.
So I told them why you invented them and made them available on the keyboards. In short, I will stop there polemic, and I will not return to this question.
Here I hope I made myself better understood
Thank you, because on this site there are interesting and competent people
Cordially

[pjd]

Now to finish my question on the use of parameters to modify a sound. If Yamaha in these arrangers to create and gives us the opportunity to adjust, change, modify sounds is not for nothing. If you have the mixer, the filter, the EQ, the effects, the chorus reverb it's not to look pretty, it's to use it. But the whole of my tutorial and my question is how to use it to modify a voice.

Hi --

You're clearly aware of the tools in your SX900 and are motivated. Unfortunately, asking "How can I make a beautiful piano sound" is a pretty broad request. It's like saying "Please give me a course in sound design using the SX900." Further, what you find "beautiful and real" and I find "beautiful and real" may (and probably are) radically different.

I hope that you've read through the Reference Manual about voice and effects editing. (You probably have.)

The next step is to select a piano voice -- maybe Concert Grand -- and experiment. Try layering different piano voices (including electric piano). Try different effects. Try different EQ settings.

If you don't like what you hear, then discard the experiment. Avoid discouragement and try again. There is a reason why people spend so much time in the studio. The process of experimentation is time consuming.

Unfortunately, there isn't a fixed, linear sequence of steps that lead to a "beautiful" piano voice.

This probably isn't the answer that you want to hear, but it's offered as friendly advice. 

All the best -- pj

P.S. It's much easier to answer questions about specific techniques and we'll be happy to help answer them.

[mikf]

Many people have posted 'improved' piano sounds and you can browse around and possibly find them on the forum. Maybe you will find something you like, something that fits your needs.
My own view is that Yamaha is the largest piano company the world has ever seen, so it's not really likely anyone will optimize the piano sound on the SX900 better than them. They can make it different, but is it really more 'real'. Not that likely.
Arranger players are usually not great piano players, they mostly play simple one note melody lines over accompaniment, so they like a voice that sounds a bit 'thicker' . But is that more 'real'. Not in my view. In fact nearly all the improved voices I have tried, sound muddy to me when the keyboard is played like a real piano.
A good sounding piano is the amalgam  of three things -  decent voice, good player, good keyboard feel. And as nearly all quality electronic keyboards have a decent voice, it's the other two that matter most. Does that mean there aren't better piano voices out there on the very best electronic keyboards or VSTs, -  of course not. But the difference they make is small compared to the other two items.
Mike

[AmirInTexas]

You may want to consider Keyscape; that's what I did and love it.

[robinez]

I think it's true that the source material (the samples from the piano) are important for the sound of the piano. But that doesn't mean that you can't change things to your liking. There are some things you can do with EQ and effects to drastically change the sound of the piano, also things like muddy or lack of high can be easely solved with the help of insert effects for instance.

I've created a Piano tutorial for the korg pa5x from a sound design perspective. The first part you can skip, it demo's what you can do with the factory piano's when you apply the techniques that are mentioned in the second part of the video.

The second part of the video starts at 16:15, there it's a more general explanation of techniques that can be used on any keyboard to achieve the sound you are after. Think of techniques like removing the muddyness, removing the hammer sound out of the sample with filters to get a more Felt Type piano, how to use reverb techniques for piano placement, the techniques of how to tame the overpowered high tones when using a pedal and a lot more. So even if it applies to the pa5x, the techniques work on any keyboard, I use the same techniques also on my yamaha genos keyboard.

you can find it over here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LlXLDaTRNg

[Graham UK]

I think the Piano Voices on my DGX670 are very good...my opinion !
There are also some nice Piano.VCE's available.

[Lacko]

My question was to know, or tell me what parameters are useful, to improve a piano sound.
I don't know if my SX, has a fault but when I play with the  low notes of the lower part of the keyboard, my speakers sizzle and vibrate and transmit an unpleasant sound

There are no parameters which can improve low frequency sound of relatively small speakers in relatively small plastic boxes like keyboards are. You can use high quality headphones or bigger volume high quality external speakers with 8 - 10 inch speaker to judge where are sound limits of your keyboard (or your ability to change parameters).

[mikf]

The DGX has a good piano voice, but what really sets it apart is the feel of the keyboard, very piano like - as is the CVP. That allows a player to make it sound authentic.
Some time back we did an experiment on the forum to compare piano voices. A midi was made by a piano player (me) on a CVP.  It was then converted to audio using voices from various arranger keyboards and an excellent VST and the audios posted blind ie voice source not identified. This way the quality of the keyboard and player were eliminated from the comparison and truly only the piano voices were compared.
Virtually no-one could tell the difference between them. And pretty much everyone agreed they all sounded pretty close to a real piano.  I thought the VST did sound better, but it was quite marginal, and not enough to be noticeable to an average listener.
The one thing we did not do, but in hindsight should have, was to use some of the altered piano sounds that people post. But at the time I did not do that because mostly those voices don't sound authentic when played properly across the full keyboard, and would have been obvious.
Mike

[BogdanH]

I think it's true that the source material (the samples from the piano) are important for the sound of the piano.

-it's a deciding factor. It's impossible to make realistic sound with poor samples, no matter what settings we apply afterward or how expensive speakers we use.

But that doesn't mean that you can't change things to your liking.

-is true.
But to get good (to our liking) result, we need to start with good source, because settings & effects can't improve the sound -they can only change it.
Yamaha only makes one CFX grand piano. There's no "warm" or "bright" CFX piano version. That is, how the piano sounds depends only on environment (home room, studio, concert hall, etc.).
By changing voice settings and/or adding effects, we should only simulate environment and not the sound of piano itself. And that's why it's important (for me) to start with good/realistic sounding source.

@Georges
As someone mentioned before: if you're happy with piano sound when using headphones, then you should definitely start looking after some external speakers.

@mike
You have sent me that midi file once and I agree on what you say... to certain degree. Let me explain:
Judging the quality of piano voice also depends on type/genre of music we're listening. For example, it's different if we "test" on some boogie-woogie (where piano sound doesn't matter much), on some F. Chopin piece or on some jazz song -because music itself influences our (lack of) judgement.

The second thing that influences our judgement is how we "test". In most cases we usually switch between one piano to another (also in the middle of the song) and compare. And I think that's not the right way to do it. In my opinion we should repeat listening the same piano few times in sequence and repeat that in next two-three days; so our brain can remember "the sound". After that we switch to another piano and the difference will be way more noticeable.

Bogdan

[mikf]

Bogdan
If the fine details of how we test, or the type of music chosen, is necessary to spot differences, then I think that in itself makes my point.

Mike

[robinez]

But to get good (to our liking) result, we need to start with good source, because settings & effects can't improve the sound -they can only change it.
Yamaha only makes one CFX grand piano. There's no "warm" or "bright" CFX piano version. That is, how the piano sounds depends only on environment (home room, studio, concert hall, etc.).
By changing voice settings and/or adding effects, we should only simulate environment and not the sound of piano itself. And that's why it's important (for me) to start with good/realistic sounding source.

I know that you have good knowledge about this area, but obviously we disagree on this, I see the sound result as a coloring pallet and with the right EQ treatments or effects like saturation, soft clipping, transient treatment, exciters, mild distortion (for the hi-end frequency bands), etc, you can change and improve the sound a lot (despite of the source material). Things like warm piano's is just a matter of setting a correct EQ pallet on the source, Warm sounds are perceived as warm due to the emphasis on the mid frequency section. It's not hard to create an EQ profile of a warm piano source sound and then apply that profile over the cold untreated piano sound, it will change that sound drastically.

The environment is in my opinion more like Reverb placement and the diffusion of reverb inputs and outputs.

But I know you know all these things, so we are looking really different to this topic and it's probably to much off topic in this forum to have a deep discussion about it over here.

But one thing is for sure, the better the source material is, the more easy it is to achieve the sound you are after.

[BogdanH]

hi Robinez,
I think it's ok if we have friendly disagreement -would be boring if we would agree on everything

Best wishes,
Bogdan

[pjd]

I think the Piano Voices on my DGX670 are very good...my opinion !
There are also some nice Piano. VCE's available.

I agree with Graham -- the DGX-670 is a very nice instrument, especially for its price.

Two technical points to keep in mind if you start with DGX-670 voice files (VCE). First, the DGX-670 piano engine supports Virtual Resonance Modeling. The SX900 does not. VRM requires a fair bit of DSP horsepower and, of course, its specialized software.

Second, a VCE file may select a preset voice (waveform) which is not present in the target instrument. Take the 670's VRM piano voices, for example. The SX900 may not substitute the "best" SX900 internal preset voice/waveform. You'll need to keep both DGX-670 and SX900 Data List PDFs open and side-by-side for comparison.

Hope this helps -- pj

[georges]

Good morning everyone.

Thank you, my question on the improvement of piano sounds, was very successful. I didn't think I'd have that many solutions and advice. Even if my question has not been fully found, there are many suggestions that will allow me to move forward, and to experiment with new formulas and settings.

If I find solutions, which may suit me I will say it on the forum.

Very friendly Georges

[MadrasGiaguari]

George, by the way, I assume that a person so deeply looking for pleasant piano sound uses a SUSTAIN PEDAL....

It helps a lot to get closer to the real piano sounding. Any piano player would not play without the sustain pedal.

It is like the organ: besides the quality of the organ sounds and of the Leslie simulation, it is absolutely needed to have/use the expression pedal. No Hammond organs are without the expression pedal.

It is a little expense, but makes a significant difference.

I'm suggesting that because I've not seen any mention to the sustain pedal in your post, neither in the various answers.

Anyway, I have the Genos and also a Clavinova CVP309 in polished ebony. My Clavinova was made in 2004, so older technology, but its piano sounds are far superior to the ones I have on Genos (even though I play Genos with large Yamaha HS8 monitors). Clavinova has 3 pedals, exactly like a grand piano.....

Ciao,

Angelo

[Amwilburn]

Angelo is (surprisingly) correct; the old CVP309 does sound (and feel, obviously) more like a piano than the Genos does. But it's inaccurate to say the pianos are poor because they're arrangers; the Korg Pa5x has an absolutely fantastic piano.

It is accurate, however, to say that the piano isn't usually the focus on an arranger (I wish it were); the Genos piano is already a huge improvement from the T4/T5 pianos, but a good chunk of that can be attributed to the inferior Tyros speakers (the Genos' speakers are *much* clearer).

Having said all that,  yes, add a sustain pedal, lower the reverb time (or the amount) on the sx900.

As good as the CVP309's piano was, the guitars, drums, the brass and most of the strings *really* show its age ><

Mark

[MadrasGiaguari]

Dear Mark,

it is obviously true that many sounds show an enormous progress of Genos vs my old Clavinova.

But still, besides the piano sounds (including electric pianos), the organ/Leslie sounds of Clavinova are very realistic. For example, check this clip, I recorded with my 250 Euros cell phone....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gao2YdjHjUM

Hope Yamaha will do better on Leslie effect in the future.

Ciao

Angelo

[pjd]

Angelo -- dude! -- good playing!

Your technique makes a huge difference -- pj

[Amwilburn]

Angelo, I wasn't doubting you; I still *have* my CVP309! Which is surprisingly still a very good piano!
pjd is correct; good playing!

Mark