Sustain Pedal Issue with Pads

[Neebo]

Hi guys,

There is a serious omission from Yamaha on the Genos that should be addressed in an update.

I was playing a piano sound on Right1 (CFX ConcertGrand) and wanted to add a pad sound on right2 so I layered a pad sound (Mellowpad) from the preset factory library.  I was surprised to find that whilst the piano sustained with the foot pedal down, the pad did not.  I thought I can easily adjust the sustain in the voice edit but unfortunately you cannot.  The voice edit screen only offers Attack, Decay and Release (no Sustain).

Digging deeper into this issue, I loaded a pad from an expansion library and that was perfect, it sustained while the pedal was down and cut out when the pedal was released.  So knowing it is an issue with the Yamaha Factory sounds, I started to dig deeper.

I believe I found the issue.  When you open YEM (Expnsion Manager), you find that each voice is made up of 8 elements and each of those elements indeed has a 4 stage Envelope (Attack, Decay1, Decay2 (sustain) & Release).  So it can easily be programmed into each layer whether to sustain or not.  Then once the elements are programmed,  you have a 'common section' that can affect all 8 layers at once.  This is the 'Common Section' that we have on the Genos under voice edit but unfortunately this section only offers 3 stage envelopes hence why we cannot add sustain from the Genos itself.

So, as unfortunately Yamaha decided that we Genos owners do not need access to the 8 elements, they have blocked us being able to edit the voices at the element level.  Montage owners of course can edit elements.

My issue is that all the Pad Factory Voices don't sustain with a foot pedal and the only way to fix this issue is if Yamaha edit the elements to take advantage of the sustain envelopes available there.  Another fix could be to add a sustain on the Genos voice edit page so we are able to gain access to this important feature which will allow voices to sustain with a foot pedal.

Regards

Neebo

[richkeys]

Have you tried the Sustain button on the Genos panel next to the Harmony button?

On SX900 I notice that setting the foot pedal from Sustain to Sostenuto will get sounds like choir or strings to sustain with the pedal press, however if layering them with a piano, the piano voice then does not sustain,which is not acceptable, so I only use Sustain, not Sostenuto with piano & pad combos. I am not finding this to be as much as a problem as I thought it would be, as the accompaniment seems to mask this pad sustain issue, at least for me.

Rich

[Neebo]

Hi Rich,

Thanks for your input.  Yes I tried all of those options and as you said, they don't do what we want.  The Genos can be a very powerful synth in it's own right however Yamaha decided to disable it which I find bewildering.  Also as I mentioned, third party pads operate as they should so it is definitely a Yamaha Library issue (someone in the sound design team forgot to set the sustain curve on the Pads, Choirs and some of the Strings).  Interesting to note that the new Kino Strings work properly while the older Seattle Strings do not (Maybe it's a Tyros 5 inherited thing).

Regards

Neebo

[richkeys]

Neebo,

Interesting research you did on this by opening the voices in YEM. I didn't know opening up Yamaha presets was possible. As you pointed out, Yamaha is not consistent with some things. They should have worked this issue out on the top of the line Genos at that price. I keep telling people here that I previously had a MODX7+ synth and yes there is much more sound control on it, however in my case I just wanted a keyboard to play and program easily and the MODX interface was just too steep of a learning curve for me.

Rich

[Lee Batchelor]

Neebo, you can assign the sustain pedal to the Left, R1, R2, or R3 voices. Do the following steps.

1) Assuming your pedal is plugged into the Sustain jack at the back of the Genos, press the sustain pedal down and press Direct Access.
2) Release the pedal. The Assignable window is now displayed.
3) There are check boxes for all four voices. Check the one(s) you want the sustain pedal to affect.
4) Uncheck the ones you don't want the sustain pedal to affect.

[overover]

Hi Neebo,

You can create your own Voices in YEM based on Genos Preset Voices. To do this, create a new, empty Pack or use an existing, non-protected Pack. Create a "Genos Custom Normal Voice" in it based on e.g. "Pad > MellowPad".

This Voice consists of 3 Elements. In each of these Elements you have access to the "Decay 2" parameter under "Amplitude". I haven't tried it myself yet. But normally, with "Decay Time" set to 0 (zero), the sound should sustain for as long as the key (or the Sustain Pedal) is pressed (with the amplitude set with "Decay Level"). Also see the attached screenshot.

If necessary, edit the other Elements in the same way.

After saving the edited voice ("Back > Save"), the Pack with the new voice must be installed on the Genos. The easiest way to do this is via Wi-Fi (click Install Taget "Genos", select the desired Pack and make sure the Voices to be installed are selected, then click "Send to Instrument" button).

Note: If Expansion content is already installed on the Genos and you want to keep it, these Packs/Voices must also be selected in the YEM before you click on "Send to Instrument" or "Save as Pack Install File". Otherwise the previously installed Expansion content will be deleted from Genos.


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris

[attachment unavailable]

[richkeys]

You can create your own Voices in YEM based on Genos Preset Voices.

Chris, Just some quick questions about your post:

Can this be done with SX voices as well?

How would a preset voice transfer over to YEM on a PC/Mac to edit it?

How would this YEM voice edit differ from the Voice Edit function in the keyboard? More control?

Rich

[Neebo]

Thank you all for your replies.

Lee, I already had all 4 ticked, doesn't make any difference.  Try it yourself.  You'll find that the piano sustains with the sustain pedal depressed whilst the pad does not.  All the factory pads don't sustain.  Third party libraries do sustain.

Chris Thank you for the interesting tutorial.  I have never been able to enter into the Genos Preset Voices on YEM with my Mac.  Whenever I click on edit voice, I get a message saying 'Voice data cannot be loaded' (pic attached).  I guess it's a Mac issue or I may be doing something wrong.

[attachment unavailable]

[DerekA]

Normally when I am playing piano with a pad, I don't actually want the pad to sustain because it gets muddy very quickly. So I have sustain set to affect R1 only as a deliberate choice.

[overover]

Chris, Just some quick questions about your post:

Can this be done with SX voices as well?

How would a preset voice transfer over to YEM on a PC/Mac to edit it?

How would this YEM voice edit differ from the Voice Edit function in the keyboard? More control?

Rich

Hi Rich,

No, unfortunately what is described (editing preset voices or combining preset voices with new wave samples) only works with Genos and Tyros5, i.e. not with PSR-S/SX models.

The required voice set files (UVF files in XML format) for Genos and Tyros5 are automatically copied to the program folder during the YEM installation. Unfortunately, such voice set files are currently not available for PSR-S/SX. And that's why there is currently no option "Create PSR-SX.... Custom Normal/Drum Voice" in YEM.

With PSR-S/SX models, you can only create/edit Expansion Voices in the YEM that are based exclusively on external/new samples.

If you edit a Preset Voice directly on the keyboard (in Voice Edit or in earlier models in Voice Set) and save it, a so-called "User Voice" is created. These voices can only be used in keyboard parts. When used in Styles, MIDI files or Multi Pads, the edited Voice Set would be ignored, i.e. only the underlying Preset Voice would be loaded unchanged.

In contrast to this, installed Expansion Voices can of course also be used to revoice Styles, MIDI Files or Multi Pads. And in the YEM, as I said, you can make separate settings for each of the up to 8 Elements of a voice. Unfortunately, this is not possible for PSR-S/SX models for Preset Voices.


Best regards,
Chris

[overover]

Chris Thank you for the interesting tutorial.  I have never been able to enter into the Genos Preset Voices on YEM with my Mac.  Whenever I click on edit voice, I get a message saying 'Voice data cannot be loaded' (pic attached).  I guess it's a Mac issue or I may be doing something wrong.

Hi Neebo,

I also had this problem in YEM (V2.9.0) until recently, but under Windows 10. I will post details as soon as possible on how I was able to fix the problem today.


Best regards,
Chris

[overover]

Chris Thank you for the interesting tutorial.  I have never been able to enter into the Genos Preset Voices on YEM with my Mac.  Whenever I click on edit voice, I get a message saying 'Voice data cannot be loaded' (pic attached).  I guess it's a Mac issue or I may be doing something wrong.

Hi Neebo,

If you haven't already done so, install the latest YEM version (currently V2.9.0) on your Mac. The previously imported Expansion content is retained, even if the old YEM version was uninstalled beforehand (which is normally not necessary on the Mac).

I have noticed that a newly created "Genos Custom Normal Voice" or "Genos Custom Drum Voice" cannot be opened for editing in the YEM (error message "Voice data cannot be loaded.") if a Tyros5 Install Target is in the YEM in addition to the Genos Install Target.

I suspect that this is also the reason for this error in your case. So please remove the Tyros5 Install Target from the YEM, then the error for Genos Custom Normal/Drum Voices should be fixed.

If the error persists, I recommend deleting or renaming the YEM User folder "Expansion Manager". On Mac, this folder is located in your Library folder, see here:
>>> https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,55252.msg431085.html#msg431085

The next time you start YEM, a new, initialized User folder will be automatically created. If the Genos is connected via Wi-Fi, click "Search Instruments" under Install Target to display the Genos as an Install Target. Otherwise, I recommend exporting the Instrument Info file (.n27) again from the Genos to a USB stick and then importing it into the YEM under Install Target again. (Of course, the Genos should also be on the latest firmware version, i.e. currently V2.13).


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris

[Neebo]

Hi Chris,

Yes that fixed the issue for me.  Many thanks for your help with this.

Much Appreciated

Neebo

[overover]

Happy to help, Neebo!

Thanks for your kind feedback.


Best regards,
Chris