MIDI Program Change in E463

[3dc]

Hi guys,

So in Ableton Live DAW I made one External Instrument Track for my Yamaha PSR-E463 with Stereo Audio IN. My E463 is connected with USB ( audio and midi ). So when I create a clips on that track with any E463 sound from 1 to 99 all works fine but as soon I have to use MSB bank to get to drums which is on MSB 127 and Program Change Number 88 all audio stops playing from E463. No clip works anymore! I can see the audio but no sounds comes from E463.

Which bank number should I use from E463 Data List? What is Sub number in Live?
Why in the world is this midi implementation so complicated on E463?
16 channels multi timbre instrument, two mono and one stereo IN and OUT and you can't make it work in any DAW not even CUBASE which is part of Yamaha. Geez!     

[SeaGtGruff]

In my opinion, the main issue to be aware of when working with a keyboard and a DAW is how the Bank Numbers and Program Numbers might need to be adjusted when going from one to the other.

Yamaha uses Bank Select MSB and LSB values which range from 0 through 127.

Ableton Live uses Bank Select MSB and LSB values which range from 1 through 128, and uses a value of 0 to mean that it should ignore that particular parameter. Furthermore, it uses slightly different terminology from standard practice; I don't have Ableton Live installed right now, but I think it says "Bank" for the MSB value and "Sub" for the LSB value.

Thus, you'll need to add 1 to Yamaha's Bank Select MSB to get the correct value to enter into Ableton Live's "Bank" field, and you'll likewise need to add 1 to Yamaha's Bank Select LSB to get the correct value to enter into Ableton Live's "Sub" field.

Yamaha uses Program Number values which range from 1 through 128, at least in their printed voice lists. The actual Program Change values inside the MIDI events range from 0 through 127, but Yamaha adds 1 to those actual values to get the values which they print in their voice lists.

Fortunately, Ableton Live also uses values which range from 1 through 128 for the Program Number, so you don't need to worry about adjusting Yamaha's Program Number to get the correct value for Ableton Live.

So if you want to select the "Power Kit" by sending messages from Ableton Live to the PSR-E463, Yamaha lists the values as 127-0-88 (MSB-LSB-Prog), but you'll need to adjust those values and enter them into Ableton Live as 128-1-88 (Bank-Sub-Prog), where the MSB and LSB must be increased by 1 but Yamaha's Program value is entered just as Yamaha lists it.

Note that different DAWs can use different numbering schemes, and in many cases you would need to adjust Yamaha's listed values differently and enter them as 127-0-87, where the MSB and LSB are entered just as Yamaha lists them but Yamaha's Program value must be decreased by 1.

[3dc]

Thanks for help Mike. It works now! Not sure why all sound stops if I make a mistake with MIDI numbers. I have to reset everything to make it work again. 
Anyway can you recommend me a decent and affordable DAW that could work with my E463 seamlessly? Reaper is affordable but its midi implementation is poor. Ableton Live is good but you must buy an relatively expensive ( standard ) licence to make it work. Any other suggestion?

Again thanks for help! 

[SeaGtGruff]

Well, Cakewalk by BandLab is a free DAW that some people like a lot, although I don't have it.

Tracktion Waveform Free is another free DAW. I don't have it yet, but I've used some of the earlier versions, such as Tracktion T4, T5, T6, and T7. Tracktion doesn't come with a lot of virtual instruments the way most commercial DAWs do, but you can supply your own plugins for it.

My own personal favorite DAW is Acoustica Mixcraft, but-- as is also the case with Ableton Live and PreSonus Studio One-- it doesn't handle Sy*** messages. But I like it because it's easy to use (for me, anyway).

Another DAW I'm personally interested in is Bitwig Studio, although I haven't tried it out yet.

[3dc]

OK almost there! 
I now use proper LSB, MSB and program change number in my DAW to get to the Yamaha PSR-E463 sounds. Unfortunately these settings don't produce proper sounds next time I open my project in DAW. Its all properly saved but not producing the specified sound. I noticed that the issue can be partially solved by selecting different program number from the E463 data list and then selecting again the previously saved number. I would like to avoid this step so I can make a ready to go template for multitrack recording.

Is there an automated way to properly initialize E463 sounds from DAW when I reopen the project? Is there an initialization MIDI command I am not aware?

Thanks for help.

[SeaGtGruff]

I'm not sure what the exact problem is, but I suspect it might have something to do with all of the voice-related and effects-related parameters that get set whenever you select one of the keyboard's preset voices. There are a number of parameters which can affect the sound of any given voice, and each preset voice has specific default values for all of those parameters. When you select a voice in a MIDI file by specifying the corresponding Bank Select and Program Change values, those other parameters will usually need to be set as well, otherwise the selected voice might sound different than expected.

When you're working with MIDI in a DAW, there are generally two different methods for setting all of those parameters-- as initial track settings which are saved as part of the MIDI track's "header" information, or as "automation events" which are saved within the track itself.

Depending on the DAW, there might be a limit to what sorts of settings (i.e., MIDI events) you can specify in the track's initial settings. For example, I don't remember how many MIDI track settings Ableton Live has, but PreSonus Studio One lets you pop up a screen where you can set all sorts of MIDI parameters, and you can add or subtract specific parameters on that screen depending on which ones your keyboard responds to.

Otherwise, if you must set parameters as automation events, you'll need to add the desired events to your MIDI track(s) at the very beginning of each track-- that is, assuming you want them to be in effect for the entire track.

What you might want to do is set up the voice(s) on the keyboard itself, then start recording in your DAW and use the "SendInit" function to transmit the settings to the DAW so they get recorded.

However, be aware that Ableton Live, PreSonus Studio One, and Acoustica Mixcraft do not support Sy*** messages, so any parameters which are set via Sy*** messages-- such as Reverb Type and Chorus Type-- cannot be recorded in those DAWs or transmitted back to the keyboard. There might be other DAWs which don't support Sy*** messages, but those are three which I know do not. As far as I know, most commercial DAWs do support Sy***, but you should check your DAW's user guide to be sure.

[3dc]

The problem is I want my E463 keyboard to function as if it was a VST in DAW using strictly only sounds from my E463 keyboard to compose multi track recording with full midi editing and audio recording. I don't want any software plugins, samples, VST in my DAW. Just E463 sounds and empty DAW. 
You might ask why? Well I am all in computer graphics and animation. I am siting all day with my PC so I need music for animation and relaxation to get faaaar away from my PC.

After Mike kind and helpful suggestions I managed to make a multi track setup in Reaper using only E463 sounds. Drums, Piano, Synth, Pads. Its all there. All finally working. Complete MIDI editing and AUDIO rendering. Complete music production circle. BTW: Yamaha E463 can actually play all 16 tracks from the DAW at the same time with its own sounds (voices). Except once you reopen a saved DAW project my setup is not working anymore. In my DAW I have to reselect all sounds from E463 Data List to make it work again. This problem prevents me to make a templates and projects for multi track recordings.

Its unbelievable to me that this simple setup and production workflow is not working out of the box in any professional DAW since a music keyboard like my E463 is connected with USB supporting both MIDI and AUDIO. At first I was upset with Yamaha but they did their job just fine for MIDI implementation for E463. But DAW software companies....Geeez! I never seen something so butchered as MIDI STANDARD and its implementation.