Hank Marvin sound

[shadowhankron]

Hi

Please can anybody supply me with a decent Hank Marvin Guitar sound from his 60,s. And more modern styles sounds.
I have tried without success to get that sound ..there is a video with The Young Ones and  the guitar sound is what I like.
Hope someone can help out for Geno's on OS 1.4

Kind regards
Ronnie

[marc1956]

I think that could be very difficult.
Playing a 60's Fender Stratocaster trough a VOX30 on a keyboard.
You should look for classic electric guitar and amplifier.
I never heard there is something in a keyboard.
Hank used alot the whammy bar. That could be done by the wheel on the left or something else on your keyboard.

Marc

[overover]

Hi Ronny,

did you try the Genos Preset voices which have "shadow" in their names?

(Voice category "E.Guitar)
60sShadowLead
60sShadowMute
ShadowedGuitar

You can also try some voices in the "Legacy / E.Guitar" category, e.g. "60sCleanGuitar"

Very important for this sound is to simulate the custom "Multitap Delay" effect of Hank Marvin. Originally he used a Tape Delay with several (5) different Delay Times (realized by several Recording Heads):

https://youtu.be/0kaVxgey9w4?t=362

You could also try all the different (Tempo) Delay / Echo effect types (as a single Insert Effect or a chain of Insert Effects).

Or you can install the attached "ShadowsGuitars" Expansion Pack (import the unzipped .ppf file to YEM). This Pack contains two "ShadowsGuitar" voices. (You can also import this Pack into an already existing Pack by using "Import Content" function).


Best regards,
Chris

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[pjd]

Thanks for posting background information about Hank Marvin and his gear. I love that kind of info.

Maybe Yamaha should add a tape delay effect to Genos? That would be sweet in any case!

All the best -- pj

[shadowhankron]

Marc1956

Many thanks for replying.
I played in a pop band in late 60,s on lead guitar and enjoyed the Watkins copy cat  echo unit to get a reasonable Hank Marvin sound so yes it is difficult on keyboards but close enough would be great.

Ronnie

[shadowhankron]

Hi overover
Thanks for helping out...the attached video I watched before with great interest and thanks for posting it

I am a fan of The Shadows music for generations.....you are correct with the multi tap Delays for different Marvin sounds.
Your attached zip files I will download tomorrow and try out, again many thanks
I have tried out the voices in the Geno's but cannot get the right amp sound like the Geno's video on you tube playing Shadows tunes.

Ronnie

[jwyvern]

Ronnie,
Some time ago on Tyros I made some registrations to emulate the Marvin sound and have recently updated them. So if you want some easily tried registrations I have attached them here as a zip.
If you do not want these to alter your split point, make sure you have a tick in Parameter lock next to Split Point.
As often happens the preset voices can be understated so these regs contain extensive edits.
Reg1- Uses a legacy DSP to modify the sound of R1. You can try R2 which contains the preset voice for comparison. R3 has a muted Gtr. Turn on Harmony button to get Echos.
Reg2- Switches straight to Muted Gtr with Echo. Ignore R1,R2.
Reg3- Uses MultiFxVintageEcho DSP. R1 Gtr has a bit more distortion when chording and more Echo. R2 has less distortion and Echo. Muted in R3.

Bear in mind the voices are also modified by the chorus  set in the styles so if you change to a different style the guitar may not sound quite the same.
If you do want to change ensure the new style chorus is set to TempoTremolo and the sends for R1,2,3 are set at 64.

With these voices you should be able to:
Bend up using normal SA guitar playing techniques,
Bend down using glide applied by the sustain pedal (already set in the regs. if you have a sustain pedal connected.)
Simulate the yammy bar by using aftertouch (optimised in Regs.)
Play Staccato or Legato to get the full sound or so called hammer on effect (property of SA guitar voices).

All you have to do is play in Hank's style. 

John

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[ton37]

Marc1956

Many thanks for replying.
I played in a pop band in late 60,s on lead guitar and enjoyed the Watkins copy cat  echo unit to get a reasonable Hank Marvin sound so yes it is difficult on keyboards but close enough would be great.

Ronnie

Hi Ronnie, just like you probably, I am also a big fan of The Shadows (of course I have my age). A dozen years ago I played the guitar and was under the spell to get the 'real' shadows sound. I had the guitars (Fender, the red one  ), tried out various pickups and different strings. Especially the fat ones. Used the Magicstomp, later the Zoom g3x with EFTP patches etc. etc. Ultimately, listening to the Shadow songs, it appears that there is not 1 shadowssound, but there have become many unique sounds over time. Don't forget: Hank Marvin's fingers and touch is a personal skill. You can't copy that! I have given up the sound-hunting for a long time. It keeps me away from trying it on a keyboard, because if one can hardly simulate 'that sound' on a guitar ... Unless you accept that it's just a simulation! Then you can play nice Shadowscovers on the keyboard. Still loving to the Shadows and once I guess I give it a try on the Keyboard. The SX has much potential ...

PS. Maybe OT, but to state what I meant: if you want listen to a tryout I did with a real guitar, feel free to follow next url: https://soundcloud.com/myguitarsong/wonderful-land or https://soundcloud.com/myguitarsong/peacepipe-lc
Than I kept saying to myself: I don't think it can be done on a keyboard .. allthought a good simulation could brings up the memories 

[shadowhankron]

jwyvern

Thanks for the Guitar Voices, I will try out later, sorry for delay replying Have not used Laptop in over two weeks.

regards

Ronnie

[shadowhankron]

ton37

Thanks for your reply,,sorry for late reply , have not been online awhile.

I enjoyed your Marvin Guitar tones on Soundcloud   excellent they were.
Like You I have all the units and still have  Yamaha Magicstomp with EFTP patches from Charlie Hall.......Zoom GX 3.....Zoom G2.1....Line6 Pod 2.0........Zoom 508........ but have not played them in years.......  I am interested to create close as possible Hank Marvin on the Genos, as I mentioned before a You Tube Video has a Keyboard player with great Marvin Guitar.

Regards
Ronnie

[Lyndyloo]

Thanks John, I will also download your Hank Marvin guitar sounds, I am playing out New Years Eve, I am a big fan of the Shadows & the party crowd all love them too, can't  beat the old ones

           Lynda

[mikf]

Playing technique is so important in capturing the sounds. Probably more so than the 'sound' itself. One of the important things is to simulate Hank's constant use of the tremolo arm. I found the best way is to rig up a foot pedal (organ type) and set it to the  pitch bend function. If you set full up to be full pitch and the correct direction,  and about a 2 semi tone span then with practice you can learn to do three things -1. slightly depress the pedal just ahead of the note and allow it to bend up to full pitch....2. depress and release some notes to get that wah sound... slightly move the pedal up and down quickly to get a tremolo effect.
Properly and judiciously done, this works way better than trying to use the wheel, and can get very close to the sound. I posted several shadows cover recordings many years ago using this technique on a par 3000, without doing anything special with the guitar sound - just used a standard sound straight off the keyboard. And people were like - wow how did you get that sound so accurate. Unfortunately I did not keep the recordings. But trust me - this is the secret.
Mike

[jwyvern]

For those who would like to try my registrations please re-read my previous post which advises how to create those Marvin effects. It may take time to practice to get it sounding right but most of the effects are available and waiting to be used.
And as I said before, you have to play in the (musical) style of Hank!  Much of which may be got by listening and  emulating on the keyboard if you can, rather than relying too much on a score to drive you, I would think.
And I have found the more convincing voices can sound like the real thing, the better the motivation for the learning process  in any genre

John

[shadowhankron]

Thanks John for further information, I hope to try out your ideas tonight

Ronnie

[mikf]

I found this old recording of a short shadows medley that I made on a PSR3000. It uses the standard vintage open voice, but I think it sounds OK. Listen on nice phones or a good speaker.
https://app.box.com/s/mv78f0klsu8wkrlz2o0sol958neyq2q5

Mike

[jwyvern]

Hi Mike,
Thanks for your 3000 recording. I listened through my HS8 speakers that I use with Genos. The tone of the guitar sounds in the right ballpark although to me it does not seem to be recorded with the "solo presence" to be able to judge fairly and to hear the nuances (call me deaf if you  will  ). Nice backings 

Just a note to those who have tried my registrations. I have discovered what appears to be a bug in my Genos which I don't fully understand. It can come in sometimes on reg1 and 2 making them unusable, causing excessive noise fluctuation in time with the beat when the style starts . It sounds something like a beating steam train.
But Reg3 (using the same style Vintage Guitar Pop) remains fine.

In spite of the number of downloads no-one has mentioned this or criticised the bank so I am not sure if others have found this fault.
Please let me know if you have. I should be able to cure it if desired.

John

[andyg]

Noise fluctuation and/or amplitude fluctuation in time with the beat is often the result of a DSP compressor effect being used, sometimes selected by the keyboard itself. Not new or unique to Yamaha i hasten to add. I can recall it many years ago!

And I concur with mikf. You can have the most ultra-realistic "Hank's Strat" voice but if the playing technique isn't there to match it, the results will be less than impressive. I can remember arranging "Walking in the Air" in Shadows style back in the 90s, on an ultra-rare Kawai Z1000 keyboard. I had to create the voice myself (that keyboard had good voice and style editing for its era) but I was very busy with the pitch bend and mod wheels, and grace notes as required. As I tell all my students when teaching them how to accurately emulate real musicians, you have to get into the mind of that player. Think 'Eddie Calvert, 'Acker Bilk', 'Hank Marvin' etc. Listen to what they do and how they create that signature sound. Then work out how to play that using keys and the controls you have at your disposal. All very much part of the fun!

[jwyvern]

Hi Andy,
Sometimes the fault is there after power on, other times not. I'm sure a DSP is involved although there also appears to be an interaction with the style.  The two Regs affected contain the same style and a VCM Compressor for drums. (Not an Insert DSP but System).
If I reload the style (first loading a different style to force Genos to reload) the noise goes away, not only in that registratiion but also in the other previously affected one!
The third unaffected reg. contains the same style but all System Sends are zero, which tells a story 

Thanks for commenting.

John

[shadowhankron]

mike

excellent recordings on The Shadows Tunes, where did you get those Styles...your Guitar sounds were very very close to the Marvin tone.

Thanks

Ronnie

[mikf]

Ronnie
I don't remember what style I used, but it is not important because when I make recordings I tend to cut the style to the bare minimum, record it as a midi with my lead, then, add some multi tracking to the midi.  It's possible to make a very professional sounding arrangement this way in minutes. The arranger is a fantastic instrument for doing this. I made this recording many years ago on my old PSR3000, so don't remember the details, but I know this is how I would have done it.
As echoed by Andy G., I really believe that people overestimate the importance of voices. Within reason, how well you play, and the overall quality of the piece matters so much more. An example of this is how often over the years we have seen posts from people complaining that the demo voices sound much better than the panel voices. But most of the time when checked out, they are really the same. The difference is the quality of the playing technique by the people making the demos.
Mike

[mikf]

Re the Marvin sound, There is a fascinating video on tube which shows how a small company in Dartford were the really the creators of not only the Hank sound, but the sound and look of british pop. Its amazing how the stars and the company mutually created each other - the Company made the stars and the stars made the Company. A perfect collision in time.
I dont remember how to find the url of a utube video so search under Vox Pop - the story of Dick Denney and the AC30.
(Maybe someone can post the URL but please dont use this thread to post how to find a tube url).
Mike

[wolfgang t]

Hi there,

very interesting video that you have to know to find effect settings for great shadows sounds.

The video shows how to set the "ripple" effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJKvI4kP0bQ&t=15s

With musical grooves
Wolfgang, Styles-24