Genos and Cubase 10 help

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

hi To All

I have nearly got everything going well but i still have a little problem with midi and Genos with Cubase 10
I have recorded midi tracks in Cubase and everything is ok
I have even recorded midi to wave files using the Genos to trigger the sounds.
I have one setup where i have 8 tracks of midi and 8 tracks of wave files all plays ok with the right ins and  outs
When happy i will save the mid file and the wave file separately.
At the moment i do not want to lose those two tracks with chord and Sys Ex information.

Now i am at the stage of hating my intro on track one  with midi information.
I have  shadow style guitar also showing in the inspector .
Ok. i delete the intro and set the metronome up and re-record  as i enter into my first note i get drums and whistles or a piano sound-- "odd that"!
I did take Robinez advice and put not Connected and Genos workstation in the inspector which works fine when doing first recordings and playback.
I seems if i delete a midi track it plays up re- recording.

Since i wanted to re-record the Intro I get the piano or a drums sound which i find odd.
I go back to the list of instruments in inspector and change back to shadows guitar by going to the next guitar and returning to shadows guitar and all records well.
when i play back it goes back to the drums or piano for some reason and now i am stuck in that cycle.
Is there something i can do to permanently cement that shadows guitar to stay in place.
It seems to me that there is something i have to do with program change, but all is there in the inspector staring at me in the list of sounds and that is the only sound on track 1
If i nail this part i will be on the right track baby!!!
Sureley doing these thing you do not have to keep changing something in list editors or something like that.

Any valueable help would be appreciated as this is the last piece for me to get the basics right.


All the best
John

[robinez]

my guess is that you have set the preference: Reset on stop in cubase.
I would suggest to disable that preset because everytime you stop the track cubase will sent a midi reset to the genos.

You can uncheck that through the following menu option: File > Preferences > MIDI and uncheck Reset on Stop on that page.

Why is this?
whenever you select a sound in the inspector it will send a program change to the genos with that sound. But it does that only when you select the sound. Disabling the above setting should solve your problem, but if you want this program change added to your midi track the common way to go is to add a Program change event in your first midi part of that track. There are several ways to do this:
- double click on the midi part, at the bottom you see the notes and below the notes you see all kind of volume lines.
- at the left you see a drop down where you can select the program change

another way is (my preferred way) is to select the midi part and then in the function menu (from memory, it could be a different title) you select the LIST view, this view looks like the step editor in the genos and here you can add program changes and Control changes, notes, etc

If you have no idea what the program change number of a sound on the genos is, you can enable this information in the menu of the genos, then it shows the program change information after the name on the genos.

[EB5AGV]

Which Cubase 10 version do you have?. I know Elements can't edit the MIDI files to be able to add or modify the CC messages needed to switch voices. I had that problem managing external synths and 'solved' it by upgrading to Pro with last Steinberg anniversary offer

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
Big thanks Robinez and EB5AGV
I will check and get back later tonight
All the Best
John


Ps to EB5AGV    I do have Cubase 10 pro as I had a good deal being a Sonar refugee.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Robinez
Thanks for your reply
I have just checked and  Reset on stop is already unchecked
I have had a funny old time with all of this so far

When i put my midi file imported into Cubase , i set all the properties like you said in the Inspector.
After that all tracks recorded to wave and i saved all of that.
I went back to the Cubase file and decided to redo an Midi intro and that is when the sound changed each time i started from the beginning even with the sound showing in the inspector.
I looked at the Midi list editor and looked for the program changes and i could not see any in the list, only controllers and notes etc.
I tried to make a program change ,but there was nothing accessible only viewing.

I then set up a new midi file and imported into Cubase and set all up again the same way and then went to the list editor
This time the program changes were showing, so something must have gone wrong somehow previously.

The thing is now  i go to the little panel and choose  Event List Type and choose program change  but cannot  put a new event in the editor.
I would have thought that you double click at the point on the list where you want a new event which lets you paste one in then put the values or program change in.
I hope you know what i am trying to say as i am getting my Knickers in the twist sometimes.

So my problem is . How do i insert events in the Midi list editor.
My new import works great at the moment and shows the program changes , but the Cubase file i need has all my work on it and i would love to know how i get that file reading program changes and not changing to a piano or drums ,bells and whistles .
Once i get all of this that will be the hard part over 
It will be great when i get stability with midi from the Genos.

Here is a screen shot of my list editor  and sound chosen , but it does not show all of the numbers for the sound , just 008.
I thought it should display all there
right click and select  view image to click to big up the picture.


All the Best

John

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[robinez]

You can do that by selecting the pencil icon to draw in the notes or events.

I would highly suggest to watch the following tutorial, it will show you how the cubase interface works. It will cost you 20 minutes but it will save you hours in the future while using cubase. All those basics are covered in this tutorial 

Cubase introduction
https://youtu.be/nbluesCJP3Y

[Pino]

It's so frustrating when something doesn't work, my S975 would not send out midi to my Ketron SD40 module even though it worked perfectly on the S950, took 5 days to get it to work, I was back on the keyboard every spare second , cross checking very move, taking notes and even taking screenshots of every move in then end with no results, I was beginning to think I had a faulty 975, one day I changed the midi cable for Host to USB and it worked Immediately, I was told that there was no difference between the 5 pin midi and the usb out, well, I'm glad I'm back to normal living again
Hang on in the John, you'll crack it soon,
Good luck

Pino

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Robinez

I have watched thte video and i am passed all of that.
I know how to edit notes and draw with pencil and all that is shown on the video. I can set up midi and vst ok ,but midi is not playing ball with the Genos on some occassions.
It is these program changes i am having trouble with and i am trying to make a sound from the Genos to play back each time without changing it's sound.
With Vst there is no problem, but the Genos is giving me the headache.
How do you draw a program change???
Have i got the correct info in the list editor?? or a lack of it??
i thought that th msb and lsb should display and the sound number
I am a little usure what a most significant byte does and an insignificant byte does. That is jargon to me.
Oh well , I will keep on trying to crack this.

all the best
John

[Roland]

Hello John,

This was hinted to earlier, but maybe you missed it: Check out the Genos Data List (you can find it here: https://europe.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/3/1131013/genos_en_dl_e0.pdf )

In Cubase, use the "List Editor" where you put the MSB/LSB and Prog Changes at the start of the track - so before your first note is played.

That should usually do the trick. Don't forget to "rewind" to the very start so the LSB/MSB and Prog Changes are picked-up.

The only other thing to maybe check is the MIDI input settings on the Genos (I haven't had time yet to deal with it on mine). Because it is a multi-timbral instrument, you might have to set it to a particular mode (like the song mode on the Motif for instance) so it can receive multiple instruments at the same time. I'll have to check on that later when I get to it. Those are typically the reasons why you get the default sounds (piano and drums). Or the "stop on reset" as mentioned earlier.

Cheers, Roland

[robinez]

Hi Robinez

I have watched thte video and i am passed all of that.
I know how to edit notes and draw with pencil and all that is shown on the video. I can set up midi and vst ok ,but midi is not playing ball with the Genos on some occassions.
It is these program changes i am having trouble with and i am trying to make a sound from the Genos to play back each time without changing it's sound.
With Vst there is no problem, but the Genos is giving me the headache.
How do you draw a program change???
Have i got the correct info in the list editor?? or a lack of it??
i thought that th msb and lsb should display and the sound number
I am a little usure what a most significant byte does and an insignificant byte does. That is jargon to me.
Oh well , I will keep on trying to crack this.

one thing that i don't really understand is that if you know the basics that you don't know how to draw a program change:
- you can do this by selecting the event: program change from the dropdown list next to the icon bar where you select the pencil. I've attached a picture with this message where i draw arrows pointing to that element where you can select the event to draw.

The MSB / LSB question i can also explain. Because the Genos has so many sounds you have to select the corresponding bank to tell the genos which sound from which bank you want (you only can select 128 programs in a program change). Therefor you have to enable the program id's on your genos, you can do this by selecting a sound, in the selection screen in the menu you can activate: Voice Number: SHOW

If you did that then every program in the voice selection screen shows the program id in the format :   MSB / LSB / PROGRAM CHANGE Number.
In your screenshot you added the concert guitar as a voice. I've attached a screenshot where you can see the voice ids and for that concert guitar you see the number: #008-032-001
So this means by using the algorithm: MSB/LSB/PC
MSB = 8
LSB = 32
Program Change = 0

Now you will notice one thing, the program change is 0 instead of 1. This is because the midi standard has a zero based index, the range goes from 0 - 127 (to have 128 number). The genos doesn't show this, but it needs those midi standard to select the correct sound. So remember:

IMPORTANT: ALWAYS substract 1 from the program change number if you enter that in a DAW like cubase or logic or ableton or any daw.

So other example, lets say you want to use the sound: MandolinSlide (from the Acoustic guitar categorie), that one has a program ID of : #104-020-025
Apply the Subtraction rule of -1 on the program change and enter the following events in cubase in your midi part
MSB: 104
LSB: 20
Program change: 24

Now that midi part will always use the sound MandolinSlide.



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[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Robinez
I understand what you have said here and is more clearer..
Ok, so i can use the draw tool to move the numbers up and down really the same as double clicking on the values and entering them by keyboard.
What baffles me is if i want to put a program change on bar 23 for example, how do you put a blank entry in so you can put the information in with a draw tool.
On Mixmaster you can click anywhere in their event list and add a new line where you like. then enter new values.
I do appreciate your help and i hope i 'm not having a bad blond moment.
Thanks for explaining the msb and lsb thing.
Is it possible as Pino says that my B plug to usb connection may have an Intermitant fault ??
The song that i want changes to keeps playing back drums bells and piano  which i said was odd
I looked at the list editor and there is no program change at all in the list( that may be the problem) and when i know how to put a new line in that list editor i think the problem may be over
I cannot work out how to add a new list editor line to draw or enter by numbers.
Sorry if i am repeating myself.
Another thing i notice now is every time you put a midi file in from the Genos the tempo changes and you have to go to tempo track and save your movements to where it should be.

All the Best
John

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Roland

The data list  is in the  Genos If you go to menu  and look at the bottom of list you can press show or not show voice .
If you press show every data number is by the sound you choose.
I also can draw as Robinez said and enter numbers but i cannot find how to put a new line in the list editor so i can put the info in for the program change.
The same withh controlers etc.
It must be staring at me in the face ,but i am not seeing it yet. some list editors ,you just doble click the area and a new blank line comes up and you choose program or whatever and change the numbers to suit.
Anyway Rolan , I hope you are doing well.
I still keeping up my practice ,but my song output has gone down as i want to get to grips with Cubase.
I am loving the program so far but we all have to put up with our blond moments and niggles. lol!!


All the Best
John

[robinez]

Hi Robinez
I understand what you have said here and is more clearer..
Ok, so i can use the draw tool to move the numbers up and down really the same as double clicking on the values and entering them by keyboard.
What baffles me is if i want to put a program change on bar 23 for example, how do you put a blank entry in so you can put the information in with a draw tool.
On Mixmaster you can click anywhere in their event list and add a new line where you like. then enter new values.
I do appreciate your help and i hope i 'm not having a bad blond moment.

Thanks for explaining the msb and lsb thing.
Is it possible as Pino says that my B plug to usb connection may have an Intermitant fault ??
The song that i want changes to keeps plaing back drums bells and piano  which i said was odd
I looked at the list editor and there is no program change at all in the list and when i know how to put a new line in that list editor i think the problem may be over
I cannot work out how to add a new list editor line to draw or enter by numbers.
Sorry if i am repeating myself.

When you look at the picture and follow the top arrows you see that i select a drawing pencil and at the right in that dropdownlist the program change event (just follow the arrow on my screen, in your case it will say Note at that position but you can open that dropdownlist and select program change (or control change). From that moment on you can draw program changes anywhere you want on the screen in every bar. The other arrows are pointing to the values you can enter manually by double clicking them.

Are you really sure that you looked at some of the basic tutorials? I still don't really understand why you didn't understand the picture i posted, it points exactly to the items you need to change (in the top bar) these drawing features are one of the basic features of working with cubase. I'm not trying to be unrespectful but i try to find out why you don't understand these kind of features despite the fact that you are saying that you know the basics of working with cubase. I'm skipping all kind of small details now in my posts because i'm assuming that you know all these kind of things, but based on your questions i'm in doubt if i go to fast for you.

Cubase needs some time to invest to get the most out of it. I doubt that your usb midi connection is the fault of your cubase experience, in my opinion it's all a matter of using cubase the way it's intended and the basics of using it shouldn't be that hard .

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Robinez

The blond moment has finally disappeared
I thought you had to draw or enter a new line to alter numbers in the list area.
I had a brainwave!!    
I need  a coffee now to recover
I chose that draw tool to and put a sync dot or click on bar 6 on the grid and yes a program change line pops up.
Thank you very much for being patient with me. I was looking too deep at a simple problem.
I will get back later and give this a test.


All the best
John.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
I will share my tonights experience
Well I have done the program change and nothing happened . It still  refuses to play the sound i want.
I opened up another couple of my efforts and now getting a sound when i click the mouse and the the go back arrows to return to start do not work until you manually shift the bar position line a little then it starts to work again
At the beginning a distant like guitar chink sound you can here when the song goes through bar 1 and 2 before the start .
I muted all tracks and it was still there until i turn sys ex off .
I reckon these song efforts i have done in midi have corrupted somehow
I started a new incidence and all ok
So Genos and  midi is touchy to say the least.
I will now  put a midi track in Cubase for editing and save that midi file  then use another incidence to record tracks to wave  and make sure the list editor shows the program changes.
Somehow some previous recordings did not show the program changes and my fiddling has done some damage .
More headache tablets please!!


All the Best
John

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
I have now after some reading on the net come to the conclusion that separate tracks for each sound is the way to go with Genos and midi.
Clearly there is too many problems with with the program change route.
When you record on the Genos and look at the step editor on track 1 where you play leads there are about four  incidences  of msb lsb and program change for one instrument before the start of the first note which i find confusing
In Cubase when imported the  same msb, lsb and program change values  are different to what you see on the Genos.
There is a mismatch with the numbers.
All i can say tonight is sausages to the lot ,I'm going to bed.

All the best
john

[Roland]

Hello John,

When recording MIDI from pretty much any synth or arranger, you will in many cases have multiple voices for a "sound on a track". So a string sound can have one or multiple pads for instance. Or think of the drums - here you can have easily  over a dozen or even more elements playing your drum kit. For such tracks that you have imported (MIDI), you need to "dissolve" them first into individual MIDI tracks (just watch out: There are only so many MIDI parts you can send back to an instrument at a time !!!)

No sausage can help you with that - where as beer can, but only AFTER you get a handle on the concept *grin*.

Wish I were nearby, we'd have this back on track quickly. I believe most of your troubles are not Cubase-function related, but rather concept related :-)

Cheers, Roland

[robinez]

Hi
I have now after some reading on the net come to the conclusion that separate tracks for each sound is the way to go with Genos and midi.
Clearly there is too many problems with with the program change route.
When you record on the Genos and look at the step editor on track 1 where you play leads there are about four  incidences  of msb lsb and program change for one instrument before the start of the first note which i find confusing
In Cubase when imported the  same msb, lsb and program change values  are different to what you see on the Genos.
There is a mismatch with the numbers.
All i can say tonight is sausages to the lot ,I'm going to bed.

All the best
john

ah that explains a lot, i wasn't expecting that you were working with only one track with all the midi channels in it.

Never use only one track in cubase to enter all the information for 16 midi channels. You have 16 channels (midi channel 1 - 16) in the genos to create your songs with. So just add 16 midi tracks in cubase to do your work where in the inspector you would select which midi channel that midi part on that track applies to.

If you load midi files then it depends on the used standard in the midi file if it's loaded on one track or on multiple tracks:
Midi 0 files: all midi information is loaded in one track in cubase.
Midi 1 files: all midi information is loaded in seperate tracks in cubase

Most of the files are midi 0 format, and then you have to dissolve that midi part (there is a function for that in cubase) and it will split automatically in separate tracks. You can remove the original midi track (which you just loaded then from cubase and work with the dissolved parts. As soon as you are ready you can save it as a Midi 0 file again in cubase and all the separate tracks will be combined to one track in that midi file.

The MSB / LSB / program change numbers in each midi track in cubase should be corresponding to the sound in genos. I've tested it in cubase and it works flawlessly, so you should get it to work.

I agree with Roland's post, your issues aren't cubase specific related, it's indeed concept related. But you are making progress so it's just a matter of time, you will succeed 

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Robinez
Yes i think most of it is not Cubase fault.
I had played the song with two registrations and straight through after a few takes  and then put it in Cubse to tidy up loose ends.

I had two different sounds on track 1 and the rest two styles
So I had three registrations, one 100bpm style over two registrations wiith guitar, second Marimba and one style on third registration at 200bpm with the same guitar.
So the best i assume is to make a style track and then disolve that if you need to work on it . After that build your separate track.
At the moment i am trying to get the Genos to talk flawlessly which is difficult.

With VST instrument there is no problems or wave files
The Genos styles are handy though saving you a large background job.

I would love to play the song after a few practices and just do the minor editing.
I suppose getting the song done is the key here. then play that separately to your hearts content on the Genos.
In my mind it would be nice to do it in one hit as you know that you have done it which is more satisfaction.
I do find it easier to play with both hands than play with one hand doing separate tracks and it takes time getting used to that. But i am getting there.
The worst thing for me is when playing a song part over and over i keep making the same silly mistakes . Come back a few hours later and you wonder what was that all about!!

I do not know why Yamaha does not make a simple sequencer that mirrors the Genos sequencer with a piano roll and trigger midi effects.
From a finished artical on that you could either record to wave or the put into cubase to join with vst 's.
It is quite funny though as you can play a midi file that you have done in one hit in Mike Bedeseems Mixmaster and it never fails to play correctly.
The drawback is that you have to play a lot deeper with calculations and the numbers.


All the best
john

[Brian 007]

Hi John,

This may not be relevant to what you are trying to do with cubase but working on the premise that any Ideas are better than none  here is what I have done in the past and has helped me,

After I have recorded my tune in midi on my PSR975  I then save it to a usb stick, and loaded it into
Mix Master and re-saved it under a different name and then loaded it into Cubase and it seems to keep the correct voices in the correct channels a lot better that way for me, I am only using Cubase ai 9.5

May be worth a try for the few moments extra it takes,

All the Brian007

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Brian
I must have had a spiritual moment as i had just said Mixmaster plays a song no matter how you put it together in the Genos Sequencer.
You may be right there.
I will give that a go.
It is funny how Mixmaster can do what a £500 program cannot.

All the best
john

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
I should be out in the sun at the moment ,but i think i have nailed it.
Play the song through in one go in the sequencer on Genos.
Do not worry about mistakes.
All you need to do is make sure all the style chords are in place and the backing is done.
Erase all except the backing and do each track separately, Intro, verse ,chorus and middle break and ending. Also you could do it in Cubase now as long as the style and chords are in place.
Add pads if necessary to thicken the song up..
I have done half my song again in an hour and changed what i did not like.
I tried in Cubase, did a couple of note lengths and velocity tweaks with no problems .
Tonight i will put back in the Genos and finish it before finalizing in Cubase to wave.
There is lots to learn in Cubase and I am looking forward to it especially looking at the chord section and learning more keyboard shortcuts.
I 've sussed out the Control room and that is great for comparing your track to a commercial track once you done the gain staging and bringing down the volume of the commercial track to match your -18db. The fun starts to begin from then on
I am also beginning to understand mixing and making small moves. I have also noticed that Sonarworks studio is great for keeping you flat.
I am hearing things differently and picking out small niggles now that normally go over your head. Sometime a little howling here and there that has to be removed.
The bass side is solved for me i hope. Now going through Sonarworks. All is beginning to even out slowly accross the frequency range.

All the best
john

[robinez]

I 've sussed out the Control room and that is great for comparing your track to a commercial track once you done the gain staging and bringing down the volume of the commercial track to match your -18db. The fun starts to begin from then on
I am also beginning to understand mixing and making small moves. I have also noticed that Sonarworks studio is great for keeping you flat.
I am hearing things differently and picking out small niggles now that normally go over your head. Sometime a little howling here and there that has to be removed.
The bass side is solved for me i hope. Now going through Sonarworks. All is beginning to even out slowly accross the frequency range.

-18db for referencing sounds like a really bad starting point in my opinion. If you are going to learn how to do mixing and mastering there is a lot of material to be found on the internet, all use different approaches. I highly recommend the following guides to study from which i think that they are very well writen and explain the mixing and mastering process in a good way.

https://www.izotope.com/en/support/support-resources/guides.html
- Free Guide: Mixing with Izotope
- Free Guide: Mastering with Ozone

13 Tips for Mixing and Producing EDM
https://www.izotope.com/en/community/blog/tips-tutorials/2017/11/12-tips-for-mixing-and-producing-edm.html

7 tips voor mixing low end (inclusief videos)
https://www.izotope.com/en/community/blog/tips-tutorials/2018/03/7-tips-for-mixing-the-low-end.html

What Is Tonal Balance in Mixing and Mastering?
https://www.izotope.com/en/community/blog/tips-tutorials/2017/09/what-is-tonal-balance-in-mixing-and-mastering.html

The mixdown and Mastering your own track guides from Inner Portal Studio are also really good introductions to mixing and mastering
http://innerportalstudio.com/guides/

learning how to mix and master is a process of years by the way, there isn't guide that teaches you how to do it properly in two hours of study. You need to cover a lot of miles experimenting to learn how to do it. The above guides will help, sonarworks can help with the basic steps of mixing and mastering, but the end result is up to you.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Robinez
I will go through the video's and thanks once again for helping me out.
sorry Robinez ,i meant -18 lufs

All the best
john

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
I think the biggest tip  from Robinez is what most of us newbies to Cubase are getting in the twist with.
In the Inspector Above Genos workstation is that all midi or channel 1 - 16 is ok to record.
For editing and playback from Cubase or the yamaha midi link only, above Genos workstation it has to be  Not connected.
That stops the midi looping back around which gives you strange sounds etc.
That has worked for me and the bells and whistles and strange happenings have gone. 

All the best
John

Message to Pino

Ps I put a new B connector to usb in today as my other was a tight fit at 1 metre length.
By putting in a 3 metre lenth one means now i can pull my computer unit out to get to the back.
I have to be double jointed to get under my desk and it hurts the back!! also banging your head on the underneath of the surface of desk    ooouch!!
I do not know whether it will make a difference for keyboard to computer stability , but a new lead does not hurt.

all the best
John                  

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Robinez and all

Things are getting more stable now after i put this thread up.
Putting Not Connected on the Input when playing the midi info back to the Genos works a treat for editing and no more strange anomalies.
There should be a section just for Genos and Cubase as there are a million and one things to learn.
Another thing i learn't this week is if you have a mono instrument from the Genos, a note with just a minute  teeny overlap  in Cubase, the sound of that note overlapping will sound half muted.
So all mono noters must not overlap each other.
That would be correct  for all Brass ,mono sound guitars flutes etc.
For ages i wondered why some notes were sounding weak and soft even when the volume was in the red.
There must be loads of things newbies to Cubase could learn from a big get together.
The Control room is great for comparing a commercial song  to your song.

Well, Thanks Robinez for all of your advice and i will keep plugging on.

all the Best
J :)ohn

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hello John,

When recording MIDI from pretty much any synth or arranger, you will in many cases have multiple voices for a "sound on a track". So a string sound can have one or multiple pads for instance. Or think of the drums - here you can have easily  over a dozen or even more elements playing your drum kit. For such tracks that you have imported (MIDI), you need to "dissolve" them first into individual MIDI tracks (just watch out: There are only so many MIDI parts you can send back to an instrument at a time !!!)

No sausage can help you with that - where as beer can, but only AFTER you get a handle on the concept *grin*.

Wish I were nearby, we'd have this back on track quickly. I believe most of your troubles are not Cubase-function related, but rather concept related :-)

Cheers, Roland

Hi Roland
Hope you are doing well .
I am getting round to disolving tracks  also i can record to wave file and get the scissors out instead of the sausage and then move a part of a track down so as to separately work on it.
Disolving allows you to still work on the midi though.
You are near to me Roland . All you need is a boing 747.
Most of my troubles are pilot error so do not put me in the front seat.
All the best
john