to sort alphabetically in tyros and genos

[King Size]

hi all,

I transferred my midifiles from tyros to the computer, and from the computer to genos. I found that the genos sorted differently and the songs are in different places. Does anyone have an explanation for this?

Siggi

[EileenL]

Were these stored in folders or just a root directory. Genos will normally store alphabetically if the songs are named correctly by title. If they have numbers in front of the title then it will store numerically.

[King Size]

we did stored it in different folders. but in the genos the same folders and the same files. Actually, the order in genos should be the same as in the tyros. Both devices are alphabetic. I had created for the tyros paper lists. they are no longer suitable for the genos, because genos are sorted differently.
This i cant understand. Can it be, the Genos have another linus os, and therefore is the difference.

siggi

[EileenL]

All my gig sets transferred fine to Genos and are all in the same order.

[Lee Batchelor]

Siggi, the default sort order is "alphabetical" for Registrations, MIDI Songs, and Audio Songs on all Tyros and Genos keyboards - even if these items reside in sub-folders.

When you copied these items to your computer, is it possible some of the names acquired a blank space at the beginning of the name? Look at the files on your computer. They should be sorted alphabetically. If not, there is the source of your problem. Perhaps you can take screen shots of what you're seeing on your Genos versus your computer. That may give us a clue as to why things are out of order.

[King Size]

We tried this afternoon to find out why the genos sort the files differently than the tyros or the computer.
It should actually be like that, both keyboards the same - so alphabetically - sort. But it is definitely so that the Genos different (wrong) sorted.
I did not notice that in my own genos. For a Friend who has made paper lists of the song order in Tyros, it is of course
noticed immediately.
With Letters like ö-ü-ä, the genos have Problemes. So "Über den Wolken" is right behind "Aber Dich". No idea what's going on.
He shows the songs on a USB stick in the computer the right order ... but put in the genos .... again a wrong one.
That happens on the genos of my friend, but also on mine.
I havent explanation for that ...
Siggi

[BenoitM]

We tried this afternoon to find out why the genos sort the files differently than the tyros or the computer.
...
With Letters like ö-ü-ä, the genos have Problemes. So "Über den Wolken" is right behind "Aber Dich".

First things first : Sorting files alphabetically on the Genos is not reliable when accents are involved...  Even worst, a lot of people asked for a way to sort Playlists by song name, but it doesn't seems to be possible à present time (firmware v1.30)...

As a side note, sorting text is a complex subject for a computer, and inside the Genos, there's a computer (running a Linux OS).

(Warning : geek speak is following, feel free to skip reading  )

Simply put, for a computer each letter 'map' to a number, and initially the (mostly) U.S. Operating System (DOS, Linux, Windows, Mac OS, and so on...) could only represents unaccentuated 'latin' characters  (a, b, c, d, ... x, y, z, A, B, C, ..., X, Y, Z).

In the 60's, one of the first (and limited) 'computer friendly' text ordering system was created and known as ASCII (American Standard Code for Information Interchange) (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII). In this system the 'a' letter is coded as 97 , 'b' is 98, c is 99, and so on... the uppercase 'A' is coded 65, 'B' is 66 , and so on... So, on those early systems the fastest way to sort a text list was simply by their 'number code' ... but since the uppercase letters have lower numbers than lowercase letters, the 'natural sort' was:
- A
- Atlas
- B
- Bug
- ....
- Z
- Zebra
- a
- atlas
- b
.....

Of course, even at that time, it was possible to sort text while ignoring the letter case, but it required more computing power

Some years later, the U.S. developers noticed that somewhere around the world, some languages had 'accents' (also known as 'diacritics') , and they extended the ASCII table to incorporate those diacritics... but of course they could not 'insert' the 'é' letter just between 'e' and 'f', so they added those 'diacritics' above the number 127... But again, if a user wanted to sort 'naturally' a list of word in its native language, more computing power was required ! (and each language has its own 'rules' concerning letter ordering... see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabetical_order  )

Again, some years later, non-latin characters were taken into account, and the UNICODE standard was created. This standard is nowadays the 'norm' and incorporate several thousand characters - and even Emojis -  (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unicode_characters)

This seriously complicate the 'sort process' of a list of words, since each language has its own rules of ordering (this is known as 'Collation' in computer science, see  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collation  ).

That's why most computer operating system allows to choose a language-specific 'sort collation'.

Unfortunately, on the Genos, we can't choose the sort collation, that's why your list seems to be strangely sorted ...   

The same thing can happens between two computers if they have different 'collation' (culture-specific settings) , and is a very common source of trouble on data-exchange systems and Databases

My 0.2$

Benoit

[Lee Batchelor]

Great explanation, Benoit. Thanks for that.

I understood the Geek part. So, I assume the Genos is coded to only understand the UNICODE format, which is Latin (English) based. No other languages can be selected at the present time, hence, why Siggi's lists are not being displayed alphabetically.

[BenoitM]

Thanks Lee

In fact, the Unicode standard is designed to represent diacritics (and even non-latin characters, like Eastern Europe, Hebrew or Arabic characters) , but there's several variations of the standard, and the Genos Operating System seems to be 'hardwired' to a specific 'Collation' (sort order) that is not very natural for us, accentuated-letters users   

The logical thing would have been that when I choose the 'French' language for the Genos Interface, the French Collation would be used for all the file sort operations, but it doesn't seems to be the case ... (in fact, even if a set 'Français' as my display language for the Genos, some parts are still displayed in English ... Yamaha seems to have done only the minimal legally required translation in order to sell their keyboard in France and other E.U. countries... )

Unfortunately, it is one of those many little annoyances that gives a bad impression for a +4000€ 'high-end' & 'professional'  keyboard 

[Roland]

One option Siggi would have is to translate Ä to "AE", Ö to "OE" and Ü to "UE", as it is done sometimes in Europe when the "Umlaute" keys are missing on the keyboard and folks don't know how to use the "US-International" mode :-)

Cheers, Roland

[King Size]

thank you very much for this explanations.
now i slowly understand...between the sort engine in the tyros 5 and the genos is a difference. the tyros 5 did sort all this files very correct, the genos cant do that because he have another sort engine.

siggi