Arpeggiators on Genos and S970 Arranger keyboards

[Marcus]

God bless you "Gary", and may you have many good days and years of enjoyment ahead into your retirement. Stay as activate as you can as you fight your unfortunate ailment, which seems to be in your nature anyway. Above all, thank you for your service, your sacrifices and others make this world a safer place.
Marcus


The Yamaha arranger keyboards already have a nice assortment of Multipads with arpeggio patterns. I assume their will be a bunch included in the new Genos addition of Multipads. Multipads, for the most part, seem to be ignored by a lot of arranger users, but I use that powerful feature all the time.

In Multipad Creator, you can edit or substitute another voice into an arpeggio pattern, while even accessing your custom voice edit saves or any voice in your expansion folder (Tyros 5). Above all, Multipads can allow 4 arpeggio patterns to play at the same time or with style parts playing and of course usually set to follow your chords.

Above that, on the Genos, I can assume that Multipads sounds/voices can be dynamically altered through the "Live Controller", just like the other assigned parts where the sound can be shaped during a live performance. So one cannot rule out the powerful Multipad arpeggios and the fact that four can play at the same time.

Above even that, REX/REX2 files can be assigned to a Multipad or built up within various style RHY parts. Huge potential in voice creation within the new Genos YEM program. Looking forward to this. REX files give us the option of still creating quality Audio RHY parts in a style. For some reason YamahaMusicSoft removed the Golden Oldies REX Style pack from the site. I ready wanted to purchase these and study their structure, but I am pretty sure how they were made with the REX files assembled within the various style parts. There is no loss of audio quality using a REX file within a reasonable tempo range.

REX2 files can add the stereo element to a standard REX file. In Recycle or Reason 7/8 programs, intricate and complex DSP effects can be added with alternating Left/Right stereo effects built separately into each slice of the file. These files need not to be limited to sequencer programs or DAW, but have huge potential within a hardware arranger. When transferred to a Tyros 5 or better in the Genos, the original stereo DSP effects edited and inserted into the REX2 file is reproduced on the Tyros5/Genos with no loss of sound quality. When the REX file is played through a Multipad or style RHY part, I can see no reason why the Genos live controllers cannot dynamically add to the huge potential of using REX files within your overall mix and music creation.

Really looking forward to the Genos Reference and Data specs and how in depth the YEM2 will be.

Check out Slice Edit Mode (8:30 - 13:35)
Reason | Creating REX files Without ReCycle | Pyramind
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01s0XOx3wz0

Marcus

[Joe H]

... Above that, on the Genos, I can assume that Multipads sounds/voices can be dynamically altered through the "Live Controller", just like the other assigned parts where the sound can be shaped during a live performance. So one cannot rule out the powerful Multipad arpeggios and the fact that four can play at the same time...

Marcus

Marcus,

Unless you have seen it in writing... don't assume anything.  It is unlikely Yamaha has implemented what you describe above.  Multi Pads are pre-recorded arps and cannot be manipulated real-time.  We can edit them... adding continuous controllers with Pan and Filter Sweeps, Portamento, Add DSP 1 Send, Attack, Decay and Release, etc.  The same applies to style Parts which are also pre-recorded arps.  That is the big difference between Multi Pads and style parts and a live arpeggiator.

I think there are about 50 more arps in the Genos over the S970s 160 or so. 

From the demos I watched, Yamaha has taken a new approach for the arranger and given us many more Multi Pads to compliment styles.  Apparently Peter at Easy Sounds was aware of this concept and implemented it in his new expansion pack Magic Dance.  Magic Dance comes with 600 Multi Pads (150 MP Banks).  I think some of these Multi Pads came from the Motif or Montage.

I suspect we will find the Genos allows the live arpeggiator to be assigned to R1, R2, R3 or all three Voices at once... which is how the S970 works.   I don't know how the live arps are setup in the Motif and Montage architecture, but they seem to be linked to the sequencer.

In the arranger, we have several sequencers:

1. Style (Creator) loop sequencer (Type 0)
2. MIDI Song sequencer (Type 0)
3. Multi Pad loop sequencer (Type 1)
4. Voice Set sequencer (Type 0)

Since the Style sequencer is a special MIDI file... Standard MIDI File plus OTS and CASM chunks, it may not be possible to incorporate a live arp into a style.

Joe H

[Marcus]

Marcus,

......"Unless you have seen it in writing... don't assume anything.  It is unlikely Yamaha has implemented what you describe above.  Multi Pads are pre-recorded arps and cannot be manipulated real-time.  We can edit them... adding continuous controllers with Pan and Filter Sweeps, Portamento, Add DSP 1 Send, Attack, Decay and Release, etc.  The same applies to style Parts which are also pre-recorded arps.  That is the big difference between Multi Pads and style parts and a live arpeggiator"............

Joe H

Correct, you cannot edit Pan and Filter Sweeps, Portamento, Add DSP 1 Send, Attack, Decay and Release in a Multipad or using the Genos continuous controllers. What I was suggesting was, such dynamics could be added and edited within a REX2 file before being imported to the YEM and then to a Genos Multipad or assembled into a Genos RHY style part. When played on the Genos, all the pre-edited Pan and Filter Sweeps, Portamento, external DSPs, Attack, Decay, Release edits are already processed within the stereo REX2 file in Recycle/ Reason or compatible program/DAW.

The only thing the Genos live control can do however, is just mix the volume level (REX2 multipad or REX2 style part). As far as the above, the Tyros 5 already accepts REX2 files, so personally I am going to investigate this potential on the Genos or whatever improvements were done to the YEM2. Damn, where are the Genos Data, Reference, Computer/App, YEM2 pdf manuals? 

Marcus

[Joe H]

Marcus,

I assume that is a typo.  Multi Pads CAN be edited to your heart's content... as you describe for the REX2.  I doubt you will have much advantange with REX2 on the Genos.  From what I've heard so far, Genos equals the sound quality of REX2... so working in MIDI will be an advantage over REX2 files.

Joe H

[Bachus]

Multipads are midi loops..
Since we cant synchronise audioloops, they dont count
These are static sequences

Arpeggio's can so,etimes be a static sequnce
However, most of the time, they have been set to be much more dynamic
For example with the pattern starting over each time you play a new key..

Multipads are not arps.. while they can be a static arpegio...
They are not arps, and will never be..

[Joe H]

Multipads are midi loops..

...Multipads are not arps.. while they can be a static arpegio...
They are not arps, and will never be..

Exactly!

Joe H

[Marcus]

Marcus,

I assume that is a typo.  Multi Pads CAN be edited to your heart's content... as you describe for the REX2.  I doubt you will have much advantange with REX2 on the Genos.  From what I've heard so far, Genos equals the sound quality of REX2... so working in MIDI will be an advantage over REX2 files.

Joe H

Sorry about that Joe, I misread your post. You can edit multipads, but fairly limited in Multipad creator, and no real-time editing.

REX files are MIDI controlled. Each slice is mapped to a key note and played in sequence to a tempo, thus no loss in audio quality. The Tyros 5 Audio drum parts are audio and quality does degrade beyond a reasonable tempo with time stretch.

Sorry I'm am not that familiar with Arps or Arp generators, but I am learning a lot from everyone's perspective. For me, I can be quite content using arpeggio MIDI loops within a Multipad. They would follow the style tempo and follow the chording. As far as I can tell, the Genos arpeggio feature is clocked to the tempo and notes dictated by the chord and pattern selected. I can't see any difference converting them to an exact Multipad copy, plus up to four arps can play at the same as a Multipad.

I also no difference converting the exact arp MIDI loop into a style part. I also no difference setting the Genos Chord fingering to "FINGERED" to activate the Style "Sync Stop" button and restarting the arp loop pattern each time you play a chord. I also see no reason why every arp/voice combination on the Genos could not be converted to an exact MIDI loop copy (or substituted Tyros 5 voice) and transferred to a Tyros 5 and play the exact arps within a style or a Multipad. The only difference is, the Genos has the added "live control". Of course "live control" works great on arps and more contemporary music types, one of the strong points of the Genos.

Marcus

[travlin-easy]

Multi-pads are probably the most underutilized feature of an arranger keyboard by live entertainers. Essentially, as an entertainer, it's one of those overlooked features that we rarely thought about while on stage, but in the studio, it jumps out and says "Let me make your song sound great!"

I, for one, was guilty of overlooking multi-pads for many year, but after I discovered what they could do to enhance my performances, they were a go to item on every job - and the audiences noticed the difference immediately.

Great discussion, guys and gals, keep them coming,

Gary

[Joe H]

Marcus,

Our style Main Sections and Multi Pads are recorded MIDI loops.   The arpeggiator in the S970 is very basic.  There is a "pattern" programmed into the arpeggio that is often anchored to a Root note. (usually played with the thumb of the right hand).  The simplest arps are the Up , Down and Up/Down, Down/Up all of which can be 1 octave, 2 octaves or 3 octaves. 

Lets take the simple Up arp.  The arp follows the notes you play on the keyboard. It could be 2, 3, 4, or 5 notes.  You can play any notes you wish and the arp follows the "Up Pattern" following whatever notes you are playing.  If you are playing a chord, then you get the standard "broken chord" arpeggio.  But if you are moving you fingers around to different notes as the arp pattern plays, you get variations on the arp output.  You can be switching between 2 notes and 3 notes and get more variations.  If you have real-time Arp Note Gate Time things begin to get interesting because now you can change the note length at will so that some notes play legato and some play staccato and maybe some in between.

On the S970, and no doubt on the Genos, if you have the Arp Menu open, you can change arps on-the-fly using the same Voice to create even more complex arp patterns.  You can also layer R1, and R2 playing the arp or have R1 play the arp while R2 plays a synth pad... or plays the same Voice sustained while R1 plays the arp pattern.

Now it is possible to record all this and convert it to a Multi Pad.  So... Multi Pads don't have to be the stagnant repetitious loop but could have the dynamics close to the live arp if done well.

So I think you and Bachus are both right.  It's not what we have, but how we use it.  I see even with the limited single live arp we can create new and interesting style Parts and Multi Pads with a little creative imagination.

Some arps have both note data and controller data... usually this is Filter, Pan or Expression.  The newest XS and XF arps in the Motif (an I assume in the Montage are far more complicated and use Mega Voices that may have both Drum/percussion samples and Normal samples programmed in them) and the arp is programmed so the velocity of the arp notes triggers the different samples.

I think very few people here have explored the arps on the S970.  A couple of other important arp parameters are Arp Note Velocity and Unit Multiply.  Real-time variation of the Arp note Velocity can be as effective as real-time variation of the Arp Gate Time with certain Voices that are velocity sensitive and may have filter mapped to velocity. Another parameter that can be effective is Release time that will give a similar result as Gate Time.  It requires a lot of experimenting to learn how to "play" the arps.

So I understand why Bachus says Multi Pads are not arps... they aren't.  But it is possible to created more interesting Multi Pads by recording the arps and applying real-time effects via the knobs and faders on the Genos and recording them to the sequencer so they can be converted to a style Part or Multi Pad.

I'm very happy Yamaha added this new tool to their arrangers.  Like Bachus, I think Yamaha fell short on what they could have included... and we will have to see once the board is in the hands of some of the forum members as to any improvements over the S970 OTHER than more knobs and sliders.

Regards,
Joe H

[Marcus]

Awesome explanation. Thanks for taking the time writing that post. Looking forward to what the Genos can create and explore with this new Arp feature. If I ever use this feature, it will be mostly for creating realistic guitar, piano and other traditional instrumental patterns.

For me, perhaps as a tool to create fixed Multipad and style parts, even though some may cringe at that limitation, unless I am inspired into some contemporary mindset and delve deeper. I'm sure some more awe inspiring Genos video demos are on the way.  Great thread and discussion as we wait for the true details of the Genos.

Marcus

[Joe H]

Marcus,

I didn't comment on the Unit Multiply because it would have just added a distraction to the points I wanted to make.  Unit Multiply will half-time or double the speed of the 4/4 time signature.  The settings in between half and double I believe will create 3/4 time signatures.  So an arp doesn't have to be playing FAST.  It can be slow.  Just listen to the different musical phrases in our style parts.  It is most likely many of those loops were created with an arpeggiator.

Joe H

[Joe H]

... and we will have to see once the board is in the hands of some of the forum members as to any improvements over the S970 OTHER than more knobs and sliders.

Regards,
Joe H

Well attached is from Genos Data List Book.  It looks like Yamaha implemented my suggestion for the S970 (BTW.. which Yamaha Engineers said it couldn't be done)   Many of the Arp parmaters and Live Control Parameters are saved in OTS, Registrations, and Voice Set.

Joe H

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Joe H]

I'm going to try to revive this thread after I was rudely interrupted by a stroke two days after the last post. ( October 16) I went through 3 weeks of intense physical and occupational therapy plus speech therapy (3 hours a day) followed by Carotid Artery surgery in early December

I connected the Motif Rack XS audio outs to the Aux audio In on the S970 so I could record a couple of Performances using the on-board USB Audio recorder.  I created an algorithm using my MIDI hardware controller that implements several XG messages in real-time using a foot controller.  People with a Genos might be able to create a similar setup with the faders if you can set the minimum and maximum values for the sliders and assign the 9th slider as Master Fader.

My setup looks like this:

Resonance:     64 - 68
Filter Cut Off:  64 - 68
Attack Rate:    64 - 68
Decay rate:     60 - 68
Release Rate: 60 - 70
Arp Gate:        75 - 180

If you listen closely, you will hear changes going from staccato to lagato in the 4 arps as they play.  The controls effect all 4 arps because they all play one MIDI channel 1.


Motif Arianes NightWalk Performance
https://app.box.com/s/kllnut2tb20iwo7eczn98c44bc9fhsmp

Motif Tollhouse Performance
https://app.box.com/s/8wad8y42jlsy4p7kj9h1wx27dnud74nu


I will be posting a similar demo using S970 arps.  My setup for the S970 uses a different algorithm for the XG controllers.

Joe H

[Joe H]

OK,

Here is a demo on the S970 with a custom style using Magic Dance pack Voices.  The XG controllers are set different than for the Motif and are optimized for R1 and R2 to get the results you hear.  I don't know whether you can setup the Genos Live Control sliders to accomplish the same thing as I did with my external Peavey PC1600x MIDI controller. 

S970 Dynamic Arp
https://app.box.com/s/iz9wf4bllx7xrviatdut7y8p640lf1ye

Joe H