Yamaha out of the arranger business?

[mikf]

Before moving to Texas I lived for years in the north east USA and I don't think it's entirely regional, it just seems that it is less common in the USA in general to come across people who take up keyboard playing as a hobby in their golden years than in the UK. I have no idea why, any more than why playing badminton was more common in the UK than in the USA, but think it is one reason why arrangers are apparently more popular in some countries than the USA.
Young people in my view are the same in all countries, their keyboard buying is driven by what their peers play rather than the features. Until the latest stars appear on stage with a PSR or Tyros they are going to keep buying Motifs and similar.
Where Joe is definitely correct is that down the line young people become middle aged and as that occurs and they decide to get into keyboards, they will want the musical styles they grew up with on the arrangers.
Mike

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

The guy who started this conversation is stirring the hornets nest!!!

[Enildo]

My opinion I have about keyboards arrangers is that they represent my freedom to play any song without needing a band.
I live in Brazil, and because Brazil is a continental country, there are many musical genres here. Here you can also play music from all over the world, especially the USA, England, France, Italy and countries that speak the Spanish language. I even knew arranger keyboards in the 80's. Today when I listen to a keyboard from the 80's, it looks like a toy, this is proof of the evolution of the arrangers.
For many a time, I played alone, at wedding parties, prom or restaurants, people who were listening from afar, weighed it was a band that was playing. Of modest part my show is much better than many bands of 6 musicians I listen to around.
Here in Brazil people are very fond of listening to a man + a keyboard arranger and the musicians here have to know how to play all styles to please different people.
I can not see the end of the arranger keyboards. Every year I see an evolution for the better!

Enildo 

[hans1966]

Enildo I totally agree with you that arranger keyboards offer an excellent musical backing as if you were playing with a great band from Rock, Jazz or Latin, you can even emulate a Symphony Orchestra.
I have had several keyboards, I started with PSR -510, then I made the switch to PSR-S500, then PSR-S900, later PSR-S950, last but not least my faithful live presentation partner and my great fix tool musicals and sequences MIDI, of course I speak of the PSR-S970. Great keyboard !!   Greetings   Hans

[maartenb]

This old threat is relevant again, since today Yamaha have launched their official Genos website. There the new Genos is marketed as "Welcome to the new world of Digital Workstation". The word arranger is not used!

Having said that, looking at the teaser one can clearly see the Style control buttons are still there. So I think Yamaha have disguised the new arranger as a workstation in an attempt to open up the product to a new audience.

Very smart and well done,


Maarten

[Chalky]

Hi Maarten,
It is interesting that the Tyros 5 is labelled a Digital Workstation but I am not sure at what point the Tyros range adopted that name?
Regards
Chalky

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi

Enildo Is absolutely right.
The Styles from these keyboards allow you to have a backing band for all styles, but you can also play the instrument as a piano if you like and also mult-track with a computer.
With an auto backing band your timing has to be on the ball, so It is just as difficult as any instrument. You have the advantage of not paying another ten members In your band!!! Wugga Wugga!!
People seem to think that those with arranger/ workstation keyboards cheat at music, but with registrations, fills etc, you have to concentrate and have to play as to get the feeling of the song right.
You can have a go at people with arrangers or workstations as much as you like, but you still have to play right and get the feel or you will sound monotone like a flat singer playing a Bontempi!!!   " not to mention Stylophone!!  Ugawuga!! " Ive given up the jews Harp, too many visits to the dentist"!!   Anyone tried Punch and Judy, nearly swallowed a swatchel"!!! "That's the way to do It"!

The Tyros does sound as good as top line pro keyboards or as near as damn It!! .
I do think there Is that looking down your nose protocol still going on In music circles, but who cares as music is meant to be enjoyed by all.
I do hope this Genos blows the doubters away!!

Bring on Vocaloid and that will make singers redundant!!!!!Sausages!!!

[s_cristi]

It is interesting that the Tyros 5 is labelled a Digital Workstation but I am not sure at what point the Tyros range adopted that name?
Regards
Chalky

Tyros 3 and Tyros 4 are also labelled as Digital Workstations. Not sure about Tyros 2 and Tyros 1.

Regards,
Cristi

[EileenL]

Yes names have changed around but I think a keyboard that has its own styles ready made that we can just sit down and play and produce good music without to much fuss and use as a solo instrument because we also have the band with us we call an arranger.

[pjd]

The Tyros does sound as good as top line pro keyboards ...

I do hope this Genos blows the doubters away!!

I couldn't agree more. Genos will exceed the Montage.

-- pj

[pjd]

Having said that, looking at the teaser one can clearly see the Style control buttons are still there. So I think Yamaha have disguised the new arranger as a workstation in an attempt to open up the product to a new audience.

Hi Maarten --

Totally agree. There's no reason why a ("synthesizer") "workstation" can't have a row of assignable buttons across the width of the keyboard and just above the keys. Oh, gosh, maybe one of the actions that can be assigned plays a repeating loop and the loop follows the chord played in the left hand. Oh, my gosh, that's an "arranger!"

The Motif series used assignable buttons just below the screen for triggering "arpeggios" (musical phrases) that loop and follow left hand chords. Yamaha just needed to move the buttons.     

Thanks for all of your comments and observations -- pj

[mikf]

I seem to recall that Yamaha have been referring to the Tyros as a 'digital workstation' for some time. But it was still basically the smart accompaniment instrument we know as an arranger as Eileen has described. I would be very surprised if the Genos is not also primarily a smart accompaniment instrument, aimed at exactly the same market as the Tyros.
Mike

[jwyvern]

Yamaha have always called the Tyros's Digital Workstations- printed on their plastic bodies, on the Manuals and probably on the cardboard boxes. The place you see them referred to as Arrangers is in Forums. While it's a valid description I'm not aware of Yamaha having officially called them that. So if you're looking for an indication that big changes are coming take it from the name change to "Genos". Tyros and Genos are all called Digital Workstations already by Yamaha so there is little to infer from that; they are all apparently in the same DW "Class" .
John

[maartenb]

Yamaha themselves call these class of instruments "Arranger Workstation Keyboards": https://nl.yamaha.com/nl/products/musical_instruments/keyboards/ 


Maarten

[mbriggs]

This reply is a bit off-topic, but is in response to mikf's comment in the second entry in this thread:

The term "Arranger" appears to have been coined by Roland in 1976 with their TR-66 "Rhythm Arranger".  It appeared again in 1988 on their stand-alone RA-50 "Realtime Arranger" tone/auto-accompaniment module.  At about that same time, they carried it over to their "Intelligent Arranger" auto-accompaniment keyboards.

Matt

[Joe H]

Yamaha makes mid-range and TOTL Arranger Workstations.  They are called that because they are complex musical instruments that require "work" to build an arrangement.  the Motif and Montage are also "Workstations" that incorporate a different architecture and workflow.  the 2 platforms are different, but in my opinion, neither is superior to the other.

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/keyboards/arranger_workstations/index.html

As far as sound goes... the PSR S970 sounds as good as the Motif... I say that because I have both. Sonic wise, they blend together perfectly.

Joe H

[Keyboardguy]

Workstation, Arranger, Keyboard - whatever. If it looks like a duck etc.

Remember, Yamaha tried to re-invent the wheel with a name for its' products in the past, when they refused to use or acknowledge the term 'electronic organ' and called them (and still do) an 'Electone'. 

[mikf]

Matt - that seems a reasonable explanation for how the term 'arranger' was adopted to describe an advanced auto accompaniment keyboard. More of an evolution than an attempt to describe what it does.
I know that Workstations evolved as the attempt to replace the multitude of quite expensive equipment needed to produce quality music in a studio with a single 'station' and as technology advanced and came down in cost manufacturers were able to build a lot of this into other keyboards like the PSRs and Tyros. At some point Yamaha quite reasonably decided that the Tyros incorporated so many of the 'workstation' features that it should be also called a 'workstation'.
But there is now so many choices, price points and overlappping features available in keyboards that all that matters is if it does what you need and, as keyboardguy says, the name doesn't really matter.
Mike

[Joe H]

Workstation, Arranger, Keyboard - whatever. If it looks like a duck etc.

Remember, Yamaha tried to re-invent the wheel with a name for its' products in the past, when they refused to use or acknowledge the term 'electronic organ' and called them (and still do) an 'Electone'. 

Your comments are obviously based on ignorance of Yamaha's architecture.  The registration memory is the center-piece of the arranger.  While it is most often used by a lot of people as a way to "setup" their keyboard... the intent of this design is to "arrange" a piece of music using styles, Multi Pads, Left and Right Voices, and even song files and audio clips.

Respectfully,
Joe H

[markstyles]

I appreciate the high quality of Tyros 5 and expect that will continue to be the same..  Yes, there are a lot of cheap keyboards. Most of them the keys are unplayable for me.. Doing the Hammond organ palming technique, will usually destroy they keyboards pretty quick.  The sound engine of Tyros is exquisite.  I have a large DAW Kontakt library, but a lot of them sound pretty static and lifeless compared to what a Tyros sounds like.. 

Look it's an expensive interest, and it is an investment in a good tool..  It gives you years of good solid work..  Of course they don't sell as many, and in the US, sales are much lower than in other parts of the world.. 

[Jean Abdou]

I think it's a failing by Yamaha in how it markets the arranger.    A LOT of $400.00 arrangers are sold in the USA. 

The arranger is not a toy.  Particularly the newest PSR and of coarse the Tyros.  Having just purchased a Motif Rack XS, I can say the sound quality of the Motif is the same as the PSR S970... and the Tyros is better by far... it's the best sounding keyboard Yamaha makes AND the most expensive.  But I suppose the new Montage has matched the sound quality of the Tyros, aside from the motion sequencer and Super Knob stuff... which if not used thoughtfully can become just a lot of noise and sound effects.. which may or may not be considered music by some people here. 

Yamaha has made no effort to explain the architecture of the arranger or how the musician can use the arranger to compose music.  These are complicated machines and yet Yamaha offer no help... we are on our own!  Yamaha likes to hype the Motif (and now the Montage) to the hilt.  The arranger and Motif are equal to my way of thinking... they just operate differently and each has it's strengths and weaknesses.

I think a NEW kind of arranger is coming... but it could be just wishful thinking on my part.   We will know sooner or later.  We've talked a lot about the mystery GENOS.  Our engineer friend pj as noted that Yamaha left a lot of room in the S970 design for future expansion, and Yamaha continues to apply for new patents which are costly.  They are up to something... and I'm sure most of us will like it... once "IT" hits the streets.



Joe H

Of course all of the samples are the same among all Yamaha keyboards but:

You should study your MOTIF XS deep enough before posting incorrect posts like above. You have not gone thoroughly in the waverom of MOTIF XS and you have not studied the capabilities of eXpanded Articulation in MOTIF XF.

Let me give you an example:
The Cello, Viola and DoubleBase samples on PSR S970 sound awful compared to MOTIF XF. The S6 Piano, S700 and CP1 Piano surpass the piano voice of Tyros 5 at anytime. You can also install up to 2GB of Yamaha flash memory and also 4GB flash memory cards from a German manufacturer exist.

The Sound design on Tyros is a joke. The parameters you can adjust on Tyros is ~50% of what you have in MOTIF XS/XF.

With the arpeggios, you can approximate some of the SuperArticulation 2 articulations like fall or tremolo.

When you purchase Tyros or Genos, you pay for the templates, presets and the SuperArticulation2 Voices. I don't like any of those templates and I don't like majority of the VOICEs that exist either in Genos/Tyros or MOTIF XF!

You should realize that the preset sounds are just ideas, demos to show you how they may sound. Can you do better than Yamaha? of course! Can I make better beats and drum patterns? Of course.

In fact the sound designers in Yamaha recently decided to add a bit of professionalism to their work. The samples in MOTIF XF series where not done the way a composer wanted them to be. They addressed some of them in Montage.

For example, I don't use string section VOICE. I use Violin section, Viola section etc and I play a 4-5 part harmony. I do the same for brass sections. I barely use the brass section VOICE. It sounds awful and unnatural.

So I have the impression that sound designers did not do their best.

Anyway the list is long and it seems you are so proud of your PSR! So it's better to sell it and use the better PSR. It seems Yamaha is crazy or too stupid to make these synths.

PS: Super Articulation 2 sounds very robotic and unnatural to me. If Yamaha ever introduces SA2 in their synth series, I appreciate it if the also give us the ability to create our own Super Articulation 2 stuff...

[Joe H]

Jean,

It was not my intent to get into the discussion of Voice programming. It is a complicated discussion.  Yes, I'm sure Yamaha uses "Templates" for the XG Voices.  The Yamaha arranger is an XG instrument.  The value of XG is that the average person can adjust (to a limited extent) the Amplitude and Filter Envelopes and other Voice parameters real-time with Continuous Controller messages.

And it should not be assumed that all Motif owners are interested in programming their own sounds. I have belonged to the Yamaha Synth Forum.  There are just as many nontechnical people over there as there are here. Some barely know how to turn their Motif On and Off let alone know how to program new sounds or get the Motif and Cubase working in sync.

I own 2 VL Plug-in cards and I can say Yamaha definitely did not optimize the Virtual Acoustic wind instruments.  I use a PC1600x hardware MIDI controller to adjust several VL parameters real-time, simultaneously (an algorithm optimized for each instrument)  by a foot pedal.

I think Yamaha strive to make PCM sampled sounds as realistic as possible. Even the VL synthesis as impressive as it is... it falls short.  All synthesizer sounds require player technique to compensate for the shortcomings of technology.

As far as SA2 Voices go, you are not first person to suggest you have the capability to edit or create new SA2 Voices.  I think we would need a database of samples and have an understanding of the computer algorithm use by the keyboard OS.  It would also require an understanding of how the real acoustic instrument is articulated by an accomplish player.

Regards,
Joe H

[mikf]

You should study your MOTIF XS deep enough before posting incorrect posts like above. You have not gone thoroughly in the waverom of MOTIF XS and you have not studied the capabilities of eXpanded Articulation in MOTIF XF.

Jean
Almost every post you make contains some inflammatory comment inferring how little people know compared to you. I know you have been warned about this but you just don't seem to be able to stop doing it. Maybe time for you to move on from this forum.