Hello am looking for praise and worship video songs of the Genos

[musicmanrgd]

Hi Greg

I am a church musician playing contemporary and traditional songs, at the church we have a CVP 709 and at home I have a Genos and a DGX670. Most of the Hymns/Songs I arrange orchestrations on the Genos transfer the arrangements onto a usb stick then play the piano part on the CVP for the service.
If your musician is used to playing piano it may be worth considering a DGX670 as suggested above as they may feel more at home with a full size weighted keyboard. Although not up to Genos standard it does come very close to the specs of the current CVP701 piano. Alternatively perhaps even a used CVP709 with its built in excellent amplification. For congregations up to 100 I find it unnecessary to use PA.

God bless

Roy

[mikf]

I have heard both the Genos and the DGX and yes it is as impressive when well played.  There may be functionality in the Genos that is not in the DGX, but the sound is little different. Yes maybe if the exact same stuff was played thru the exact same  sound system and they were compared side by side - maybe ( and I really mean maybe) - you could tell the difference. But in separate situations both just sound very good. And I am not just a normal listener, I am an experienced old professional keyboard player. And the DGX is definitely better are more comfortable to play for a pianist. Unless you are going to do some fancy sound creation stuff, the DGX is more than adequate.
When I said 'toy', I didn't mean it was a toy, but that many experienced piano players might see it that way.
In all honesty I think you are letting your judgement be clouded. Maybe because you are a bit mesmerized by the Genos and would love to have one. I can assure you that the congregation will not be any more impressed by the Genos than the DGX in the hands of a decent musician. The key is not the model, it's how how well it gets used.
Just think of the reaction of the deacons when you tell them you have come up with a better alternative at a fraction of the cost.

[myzone1958]

     mikp  I appreciate you taking the time to talk this over with me. The problem is I have been at both the elders meeting and the Deacons meeting and spent a considerable amount of time bragging up the Genos. For me to go back and tell them any thing different now will make me look confused and unstable. I now how their attention and this Sunday one of the deacon's is going to be make an announcement in the beginning of the church service. I think one of the deacons is all ready considering donating money for the Genos and that could be announced also. I better let well enough alone while I got a good thing going. Perhaps the DGX would have been enough to fill the void .I did go on line to hear this DGX. I don't know I still think the Genos sounds much better and has more options that are available on the control panel. The sliders to access bringing instruments in and out at different volume levels and so forth.   I do see your point on a conservative outlook and the DGX is not a bad  instrument  but if some one is willing to step up to the plate and come up with the cash and can afford to do it I will just let it run its coarse. I am not forcing anything on anyone I just presented my thoughts and was very impressed with the Genos with it's sounds and feature .  I can see those features being used in praise and worship. Andrew is an experienced Player for sure and I do think he has the capability to operate . I did say at the meeting that I would not suggest investing in the Genos if I knew Andrew was not a professional cause for your average keyboard player it surly would be a waist of money. Here is a beautiful demo of Genos with instruments being brought in and out at will --------->    https://youtu.be/o8D_QL3N-is         and here is another demo -------->    https://youtu.be/0p5a1FTktsg                       

[DrakeM]

Hello Greg

If you are moving forward with the Genos be sure you contact FRANK and get his quote. Also let him know you are a member here at the PSRTutoral site for his best offer.

https://audioproct.com/

Regards
Drake

[myzone1958]

 
   Drake where is he located ?

[pjd]

Drake where is he located ?

That would be Frank Ventresca of AudioProCT https://audioproct.com/

The store is located in Milford, Connecticut (203) 806-5555

I have purchased two arranger keyboards via Frank and had a good experience each time.

-- pj

[pjd]

Hi Greg --

Glad to see other experienced folks chime in. I've played with 20+ pianists (and a similar number of subs) at several parishes over the past 30 or so years. Mike makes good points about the average liturgical piano (keyboard) player. If someone comes in cold, they are likely to say "Where is the piano button?" Pianists who have a working knowledge of harmony (chords) can play from a lead sheet (melody plus chords), some pianists cannot because it requires a degree of improvisational skill.

I don't think you will be criticized if you say, "I know this is a big investment for the church, so let's take it slow(er)." It's good stewardship. After all, it's going to take time to adopt the technology in worship (maybe start with one auto-accompaniment hymn/song per week).

More importantly, it's going to take the right person to make the transition. Pianists vary widely as to technical skill, time, and willingness to engage with technology. That's why, most often, one gets the question, "Where is the piano button?" Whatever keyboard is chosen, it will take a committed individual who is willing to invest their time in making the transition happen.

In addition to the DGX-670 (a fine instrument), there are other Yamaha products that might fit the bill (CSP, CLP, CVP, P-S500). These instruments have auto-accompaniment, but have simplified the player interface. Physical appearance may be an issue, too, as I've had a few pastors who were very picky about the appearance of the sacristy! Piano action keyboards are familiar to more liturgical players. Some have moved auto-accompaniment controls to tablet software in order to make the player interface as simple as possible.

One additional suggestion is to involve the donor in the final decision. Sure, this all may take more time, but we are the living church and should all share in this together.

Hope my comments help -- pj

[myzone1958]

  PJD thanks for the info . My only concern is if the keyboard ever needs repair that would become an issue cause then the keyboard would have to be shipped back and I am not too crazy about shipping out something with the way things great broker in shipping. And even if you take out shipping insurance that does not guarantee your going to compensated.   The closes place I know is Sam Ash in Kingaprussa ,Pa  They sell them and do repairs there and the Church would not have to ship they could drive there and drop off if need be. Does that make sense ?     

[pjd]

Hi Greg --

Of course, it makes sense to think about repair. ("In the unlikely event of a water landing..."  )

I used to live in central NJ and, later, outside Boston. I have similar concerns about shipping and would probably just hop in the car (from either Boston or Trenton) and drive I-95 to Milford.  But, that's me.

Other than a return, a Yamaha keyboard would most likely need to go to a Yamaha repair center (for warranty work). I had a bad experience with Sam Ash in Cherry Hill. Took an 88-key stage piano for repair, and they lost my keyboard. Had to go around and around with them in order to get it replaced.

Frank V. would be much easier to work with...

Speaking of maintenance, a digital instrument would be much easier to maintain -- not temp/humidity sensitive like an acoustic instrument. Another question, would you connect the keyboard to the church sound system?

Wish you the best -- pj

[myzone1958]

   
       PJD  Yes they have a sound system but once in a while they get terrible feed back and I think its because the two singers are to close to the speaker front . Really they should be behind the speakers . The guy behind the mixer did not cut off the feed back soon enough in my opinion . Gosh they could have blown out some ones ears . I mentioned to them they have to get that under control or they will have a law suit on their hands from blowing some ones ears out , I mean it was loud ! lol !    Sam  Ash is a repair center . I guess it all depends who is managing the place.  I  wrote down Franks web sight and Phone # if they would care to deal with someone from another state. Depends on how much of a deal he would give the Church but yes I will let them know about him . Drake mentioned his name also. Thanks !

[myzone1958]

     I just got a call from one of the deacons from my church and he gave me word that an Anonymous donation of $500.00 was given to the church for the Purchase of the Genos Keyboard. They are going to make an announcement  Sunday as to the Anonymous Donation and to present more information about the Genos and how it would bless the church Music ministry. So who knows how far it will go in contributions before its all over . Please keep Tri County Bible Church in your prayers concerning this . Thank You ! 

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

What a stupid comment that does not do anything to help the request.

Sorry but I couldn't resist commenting.

Same for me Chris, but it all depends on who is singing "I could not resist"!!!

[myzone1958]

  I wanted to inform you all that they made an announcement about the Purchase of the Yamaha Genos Keyboard.  You can hear the announcement here ----->https://www.youtube.com/live/D9Gri1-7S_E?feature=share   

  Note if you don't want to hear the whole church service that is fine. What you can do is look at the red bar on the bottom and slide it up to 21:19 and it should take you to the announcement about the Genos to the congregation. Let me know if you got to that part . Thank you! 

     Greg

[keynote]

I listened to the announcement from the pastor about the Genos. The Genos is a great flagship keyboard, no doubt about it. From the looks of it, you seem to have a somewhat smaller congregation and I realize a lot of smaller churches receive smaller offerings and $6,000 for a musical instrument like the Genos might be a burden on the congregants. It's a good sign though that you've already received $600 toward the purchase of a Genos. Another thing to consider is the Genos doesn't have internal speakers, so depending on your sanctuary sound system, you might not be able to hear yourself very well in the mix if you're playing along with other musicians. Internal speakers allow a keyboard player to hear what's being played on the keyboard, which can be really helpful, especially if you don't have stage monitors to help gauge the sounds in the overall mix. If you will be playing by yourself up on stage, etc., and the church sound system is adequate, then you should have no problem. Btw, a slimmed-down version of the Genos is the much less expensive Yamaha SX-900 arranger keyboard that has internal speakers if you want to save a few thousand dollars. Also, the new Genos2 arranger keyboard will probably be on the horizon in the not too distant future with an expectant release date in October/November 2023, or possibly at NAMM January 25-28, 2024. If your congregation eventually comes up with the money for the purchase of a Genos you might want to hold tight until the Genos2 is released and then compare both keyboards to see which one suits you best. FWIW, if and when a Genos successor is released, Yamaha will likely discount the remaining current Genos in stock, and you could save quite a bit of money in the process instead of shelling out bigger bucks for the Genos2 which will likely be more expensive than the current Genos, but only time will tell. Although, if past is prologue, then the Genos2 will likely be worth the extra cash vs. the current Genos, but at least you will have a choice which is nice.

All the best, Mike     

[myzone1958]

   
            Hi Mike and thanks for your input. If I wanting to buy the Genos I would wait like you say but are church is in desperate need to upgrade the sound of the keyboard they have now . You see since Covid hit they lost all the musicians but the keyboard player and bass player. As of now things are dead in my opinion. There is no drum Section and no back round brass and so forth . I thought by introducing the Genos to the deacons there was a chance they would go for it. They are taking it slow and I am not fully sure if all the deacons or the congregation understands what the full capabilities of the Genos and what it can do . I am trying to breath new life into the praise and worship and I do think if they raise enough money and use it they will be in for a big surprise. Personally I think where they are singing is not the best spot cause he is singing in front of the speakers . I am not a big fan of that. I think they should be singing behind the speakers . Perhaps when they go to buy the genos I can encourage them to have the store manager send someone back to look over their sound system and make suggestions. I agree though waiting for a sale would be good but I think they are looking at buying one when the money is fully available. Personally  the way things are sounding now kind of gets on my nerves . Everything sounds too straight  and has no dynamic ,dramatic ,theatrical presentation to it .  It would be nice if one of these stores would have a sales rep who  could come back to the church and have a few hour seminar demoing the Genos but I don't know if stores do that.   

[myzone1958]

     And update on using a Genos in Church . The board of Deacons have made a decision and their decision to use the Genos in church has been rejected. Only one Deacon was in favor of the Genos. I requested to receive a copy sent to me in the mail why they rejected it .
I will post the final results of their decision when I receive it .I am curious to know why they rejected the Genos. As to my understanding if a live drummer or any other Musician would join the church they would except that. As of now they only have 2 musicians and 2 singers. The Genos would have provided so much more. Very Very Frustrating. It may leave me with no Choice but to resign from the Church and go else where.
   

[mikf]

Well Greg, you had that $600 donation, a further small donation from yourself and you could have just bought the DGX and had no opposition! If it had the positive effect you think maybe the Genos could have been a next step.
But as I said before, you are kidding yourself if you think the difference between a DGX sound and a Genos was important. In a blind test I am certain you couldn't tell which was which with a real player.
In fact for a Church I would choose the DGX every time, full piano keyboard, great sound and most of the additional deep features in the Genos would be not used in a Church for live play. And of course way cheaper. If I was your church musician I would take the DGX every time as my preferred choice, because I would never need or want all the deep features of the Genos, and I could use full piano keyboard.  I suspect you have never heard a new DGX played well, but I can tell you it blew me away. I have 2 CVPs and I thought the DGX was well in their league.
Maybe you should reconsider your approach.
Mike

[myzone1958]

 
      Mike I will not know the real reason why they rejected till I receiver a letter. I am not certain if it was just because of the cost of it. About you mentioning playing on a full size keyboard here is a demo of a guy pre recording his praise and worship composition on the Genos then going back and using his full size keyboard to play along with the Genos.  Breath taken and very powerful technic.

   Demo ------>   https://youtu.be/9wIJ-ZpiC5A

[mikf]

Greg
Many church musicians will be classically trained on piano, like me, and will value the better feel, full size keyboard way over the many deep features they will find on Genos, but seldom use. And feel more comfortable with it.
With all due respect, I mentioned before that I think you got yourself caught up in the mystique and aura of the Genos. While I think it is a great keyboard, and a great sound, they all sound great nowadays. I could buy 10 different decent arranger type keyboards, and the difference in sound quality between them will be minimal compared to the difference in the quality of the person playing them.
The approach that pro musicians take to their instrument is not the same as the amateur enthusiast who wants and can afford the latest and greatest, and often has more fun playing with the buttons and fancy features than just playing.
The church board may not agree with you that the music is the basis of their falling congregation - and they may be right. But for something that would essentially cost them nothing, they would have had nothing to lose with the DGX.
BTW - re the video you posted, before I changed to the CVP, that was exactly the way I had my arranger, electric piano set up. And, I played exactly this way, driving everything from the full keyboard, never using the arranger keys. But of course the CVP is much neater way of achieving the same end . As is the DGX.
Mike

[myzone1958]

  Mike you have some good points but having said that I will post their thoughts on the Genos once I get a letter from them. It may or may not be the price that they are concerned with will have to wait and see what their final thoughts were I am curious. I went on You tube and listened to the keyboard you mentioned. I think the Genos has more realism to it. The bending of notes with the Joy Stick and the large window display . The sliders to bring instruments in and out on the fly. You call all the buttons on the Genos fancy but they are there for a reason. I agree if the keyboard player is not skilled enough the Genos would not be worth investing in, but he is skilled , but if we left out the cost and those 2 keyboards were in front of you which one would you take if it was given to you ?  Here is last Sundays service which I did not attend because I was not in the mood to attend after the disappointment with their Decision. You can get an idea of the music directors playing skills on the piano and keyboard. Music is at the Beginning of the Video  and then if you wind forward to the end of the service you can hear him playing again. No questions the Genos would put new life into their Music Ministry but they don't see it like I do, Very Frustrating. I feel like they insulted my intelligence. I don't know if I will ever go back there.
   Last Sunday -->    https://www.youtube.com/live/Z9oyvByWDnY?feature=share   

[mikf]

I think it might also be perception, not just price. The Genos appears like a fancy computer with sound, and that may not sit well.
You seem very enthused by the Genos 'sound' but having heard both first hand I would just describe both as very impressive, with the Genos having a very slight edge, not one miles better than the other.
On your other question, being well informed about both the keyboards and the use in a church, I would probably choose the DGX, especially for the purpose you intend, - not having to be portable, not for fancy recording of EDM or other genres. I just would not need or want a Genos, and the keyboard would feel awful to me.
But suppose I was playing piano or organ in the church, with no background in playing arrangers, and you came to me cold with a Genos, I would probably chase you. A pro player, and you want me to mess with something that seems more about operating than playing.  You might persuade me to try a DGX though, because it looks and plays like a piano. Thats the truth.
 
BTW, I never  bend notes with the joystick. When I do pitch bend, I use the foot pedal. And honestly, bending notes is more of a gimmick than a necessity to a church player. 
Mike

[pjd]

Hi --

I watched the video of April 16rd's service via Greg's link (Tri-County Bible Church, Pennsylvania):

https://www.youtube.com/live/Z9oyvByWDnY

70 people in attendance and 11 people on-line.

There is an acoustic piano in the choir area to the left of the altar and several instruments in the music ministry area to the right of the altar. There is a Korg (!) keyboard in the music ministry area -- couldn't tell what model. So, there is at least some experience with a digital keyboard instrument. The first hymns were accompanied by the Korg and a guitar.

I guess two questions for Greg is "Who does the church want to bring back to the fold? Who do they want to attract?" The congregation skews older. (Not meant as an offense, because I play for a skewed congregation myself.) If the goal is to bring in more youth, than there are other considerations like repertoire. Our church has a separate youth-targeted service even though our own group tries to go upbeat and somewhat contemporary.

I get the need for rhythm even though I have my own love-hate relationship with drums and drummers in church music. :-) I also understand how the music director might prefer to play with a live drummer... Recruiting? Compensation?

Well, there's some observations and thoughts -- none technological. :-)

It was hard to recover from the pandemic especially with volunteer musicians. It's taken more than a year.

All the best -- pj

[myzone1958]

 
   PJD that's just it they are not trying to bring anything back to the church it's me that was trying to point out to them that we need music that is going to appeal to the younger generation to draw them in. As the older people die off there will be no one to replace them. I recommended the Genos or even one of the arrangers would do a lot better then what I hear now giving it a more dramatic presentation but the director insist he wants live people to participate but what he is not getting is how long is he willing to wait for these people to come. I was giving them a quick fix to this problem but they don't see anything as a problem and are happy the way it is going. The other problem there is the Pastor is pushing 90 and has bad knees , He is going blind in the one eye and can not read at the moment. I suggested to one of the deacons that he needs to step down. As of now a younger man has taken over in the church with a pastoral degree and have more energy. I decided to continue going there since he stepped in . He is excellent ! i Just got to look past the music . I wish the pastor who is 90 good health but I hope he decides to let the younger guy take over the pastoring. Again I don't say this out of respect for older people but in order to attract the younger generation they do need a younger lively speaker. I look at things from the long haul but they look at things from the here and now.       

[pjd]

Hi Greg --

So much depends upon the pastor. Can't say that enough.   

Targeted youth ministry seems to work best. It's unfortunate that years and ill-health take away so much energy -- don't I know it! 

I'm glad to hear that another minister is helping out.

All the best -- pj

[Dave Nuttall]

Hi Greg (and others who have posted in this thread).

I am an active volunteer hymn/gospel singer and keyboard musician.   I have an active YouTube site with some 2,500 subscribers who mostly like my renditions of traditional hymns and southern/country gospel, spanning about the past 9 years.   The site has around 250 songs that I've created, first on a PSR-S910 and more recently with a Genos.   The quality of the "keyboard operator" varies (hopefully improves over time), but the quality of the SOUND is hard to differentiate between the two keyboards.

I began keyboard lessons in 1952 and read/play by-note-or-by-ear, but I would be VERY nervous about playing a Genos or any other arranger/workstation as the accompaniment for services such as T-C Bible Church.   Basic reason(s) follow:

1.  It takes a substantial amount of TIME to find/match STYLES for keyboards to accompany traditional hymns, southern/country gospel, or contemporary "P&W".   But a skilled PIANO player can slide between any of the genres without the risk of not matching the tempo or appropriate instrument combination.   

2.  If you take almost any modern hymnal or praise & worship playlist, there will be MANY hymns/songs for which there is NO appropriate style.   And picking a style that can make a religious song sound SECULAR will produce unmerciful "grief" from pastors, deacons and knowledgeable congregants.

3.  Arranger/workstation advocates might suggest that where satisfactory styles don't exist, a solution can come from "rolling your own"....but avoid being enticed by that idea.   It is a LOT harder than it looks especially when the music doesn't invariably have a well known recording to mimic.  And even if there is a reliable, well-known recording to mimic, one must be VERY SKILLED using a wide array of instruments.   I personally know the piano and trumpet but know NOTHING of drums, electric guitars and classical orchestral instruments.  Now if we could just get Bill Gaither and Daywind Studios to create arranger/workstation STYLES that mimic their recordings, then the contemporary P&W artists/studios might follow and we wouldn't have this dilemma with regard to arranger/workstations in small churches.   Without appropriate styles, arranger/workstations are little more than somewhat expensive digital pianos.   And also the Genos is "OK" as a piano, as a piano player, I much prefer ANY decent acoustic piano, and especially my Baldwin SF-10!   And really good "stage" pianos (Yamaha, etc) can be found for equal or less $$$ than the Genos.

On the positive side, I would be delighted and honored to share my collected insights/ideas/styles/registrations on hymns and gospel music.   When I have offered here in the past, there hasn't been much interest.  I have been retired for nearly 20 years, and usually spend a part of every day "doing something related to Christian music", in between assignments from my spouse of 50+ years.

My profile has my email if you wish to collaborate privately.
Dave
San Antonio, TX 

[keynote]

Hi Greg (and others who have posted in this thread).

   Now if we could just get Bill Gaither and Daywind Studios to create arranger/workstation STYLES that mimic their recordings, then the contemporary P&W artists/studios might follow and we wouldn't have this dilemma with regard to arranger/workstations in small churches.   Without appropriate styles, arranger/workstations are little more than somewhat expensive digital pianos.   And also the Genos is "OK" as a piano, as a piano player, I much prefer ANY decent acoustic piano, and especially my Baldwin SF-10!   And really good "stage" pianos (Yamaha, etc) can be found for equal or less $$$ than the Genos.

Dave
San Antonio, TX

Hi Dave. Or better yet, Yamaha has a significant footprint in the Christian/Gospel segment, so it would be a shoo-in for Yammie to produce quality styles for that genre of music which in my opinion would also boost sales of their higher-end arranger keyboards. Because as we know a vast number of Christians are also musicians and keyboardists and many of them of course buy Yamaha arranger keyboards.  Many smaller churches don't have the resources for a live worship band which would include a lot of music gear, but since an arranger is in effect a one-man-band (OMB) it could solve many churches desire for a live band service via an arranger keyboard player with a Genos, etc., if they had access to high quality styles directly suited for both CCM & Hymnal songs. I think Yamaha would sell a boat load of those type of styles which would be another revenue booster for Yammie and a great benefit for churches and Yamaha arranger keyboardists who would like to fill that void.

All the best, Mike 

[Dave Nuttall]

Hi Dave. Or better yet, Yamaha has a significant footprint in the Christian/Gospel segment, so it would be a shoo-in for Yammie to produce quality styles for that genre of music which in my opinion would also boost sales of their higher-end arranger keyboards. Because as we know a vast number of Christians are also musicians and keyboardists and many of them of course buy Yamaha arranger keyboards.  Many smaller churches don't have the resources for a live worship band which would include a lot of music gear, but since an arranger is in effect a one-man-band (OMB) it could solve many churches desire for a live band service via an arranger keyboard player with a Genos, etc., if they had access to high quality styles directly suited for both CCM & Hymnal songs. I think Yamaha would sell a boat load of those type of styles which would be another revenue booster for Yammie and a great benefit for churches and Yamaha arranger keyboardists who would like to fill that void.

All the best, Mike

Yamaha does seem to have a reasonable share of the church market but I suspect from Yamaha's perch it is far from enticing compared to secular markets.   It is sad and unfortunate but reality.   I'm guessing that IF styles were going to appear, they would first and foremost emulate the contemporary Christian music (CCM) genre which is closer to secular genres/styles compared with what is likely the preferred sound at the T-C Bible Church (well blended voices/instruments and diminished drums/guitars).   It can be done on many hymns/songs but not without limits/shortfalls/disappointments.

Since the church rejected the idea, it's kinda moot with regard to Greg's initiative.

[mikf]

There is also a very practical reason to avoid auto accompaniment type instruments for church music.
It is true that some very contemporary churches present the music like a well rehearsed, performed concert. But most more traditional churches still present the music as a way to lead the full congregation in participation. Instruments with fixed electronic tempo might be a liability in those situations.
I know that when I played in church, even with a choir leading, I was constantly aware of 'congregation lag" and making subtle timing adjustments.
In fact the arranger is generally not an instrument I would select for any kind of community singing situation.
Mike

[pjd]

I know that when I played in church, even with a choir leading, I was constantly aware of 'congregation lag" and making subtle timing adjustments.

Had to chuckle. I loved the scene in "Amadeus" when Mozart rehearses the singers -- and makes wisecracks like "Late!"

Every Sunday, I fight the urge to bark out "Late!" to the congregation. 

Amen, Mike, amen -- pj