Do we really need complicated keyboards

[travlin-easy]

Whether or not the customer is turned off by all those buttons and menus is dependent upon the store and those who are employed by them. The store I frequented the most was Music land in Bel Air, Maryland, where the owner (recently deceased) knew the keyboard's features inside and out. When a customer showed any interest, he was right there to show them as many of the features and how they worked as possible. This often resulted in a sale to that person.

Ironically, one of the big box music stores, GC, didn't have anyone knowledgeable about arranger keyboards or their operation. In fact, most of them didn't know how to turn  it on, let alone explore the features, and they didn't want to take the time or make an effort to learn. They primarily wanted to sell guitars and amps, where they could make a quick buck and get to the next customer. If you wanted someone to demo an arranger keyboard at GC, you would be hard pressed to find someone.

Washington Music, located in Rockville, Maryland, has an entire section of their store dedicated to arranger keyboards and synths. And, the person that mans that building, which is separate from the main store, is an older gentleman who knows the OS and features of every arranger keyboard and synth they have, which is a huge number. When a new model arrives, he spends days on end learning everything there is to know about the device. Their arranger keyboard and synth sales are second to none in the entire nation. And, they usually charge full retail price, and have no trouble getting it. They provide all the technical help anyone needs at no extra charge.

Just my point of view,

Gary

[anotherscott]

one of the big box music stores, GC, didn't have anyone knowledgeable about arranger keyboards or their operation. In fact, most of them didn't know how to turn  it on, let alone explore the features, and they didn't want to take the time or make an effort to learn.

I wonder whether the manufacturer/reps provide any training on new products. I remember going to GC to check out the Roland Fantom a few years ago, and I couldn't figure out how to just set it to a piano sound. So I called over a salesperson, he couldn't figure it out either. Ultimately, his solution was to turn it off and turn it on again.

[EileenL]

Yamaha UK do run instructional days for all there Dealers when a new flag ship is released.

[travlin-easy]

Not here in the US, Eileen.

Gary 

[Lonely Flower]

Just thought I would add my thoughts to this subject. I haven't posted on this site for some time. I have a PSR 775 which I play at home for my own enjoyment (single finger chords) and did ask the question on this site if anyone actually uses all the functions on their keyboard.
I am actually a drummer having played many different types of music for over 50 years. Drums like keyboards have progressed and become more complicated with mostly positive results. Look at guitars. They haven't change much over the years if at all, but look on the stage floor and see the array of effects pedals. I recall a lead guitarist turning up at rehearsal back in the 60's with a "Wah Wah"pedal. Oh, the excitiement! Back to drums. Quality and sound projection of acoustic kits has improved and also electronic kits are now common. Something I said I would have nothing to do with. However, I now have a Roland VDrum electronic kit which I use for gigs. Using this I have access to around 100 different kit sounds, and the ability to alter the characteristic of each individual kit. Do I use all these. Absolutely not. I don't know how to. Now we have electronic kit brains combined with acoustic kits, known as hybrid kits. It's called progress. Though I still love playing along to acoustic guitars on my cajun box.
    So are all thoser knobs and sliders, touch screen etc required. Yes. You don't have to use them all, though. I certainly don't. I don't understand them. I'm just a drummer trying to be a "proper musician"
    Finally, is there anyone that uses every facility on their keyboard?

[BogdanH]

Hello Lonely,
To answer the question first: yes, some are using (almost) all features in their keyboards or are at least know how to use them. But does it matter? Not necessary.

Main attribute of an arranger keyboard is the possibility to create & customize accompaniments (styles) -a possibility for a player to become "authentic" one man band. But that's not for everybody the main reason why they decide for such keyboard: it might be because of better sound, bigger display, possibility to install additional voices & styles, etc... and that's ok. At the end it all about enjoying our hobby.

Bogdan

[Divemaster]

The present day keyboards are wonderful, and I think back to when I too used to rattle out a few songs on an old, badly tuned piano in a pub that I used to frequent. I also remember one evening when two of us were jamming on two pianos, and a rather inebriated clown shouted "Rubbish".  My friend got up, grabbed him, sat him down at his piano, and said "Do Better"...........To complete ridicule, the man left the pub shortly afterwards, being unable to play anything at all.....A good lesson there.

Playing is the main thing. Just enjoy playing it, and use only the knobs and buttons that you find useful. There's no need to ram your brain full of elements of the keyboard that you don't use, will never need, and can't get your head round.

My own particular bugbear is with music scores. Why some composers write them with 5 flats or 5 sharps I know not, but I completely avoid such music. It's way too complicated for my old head to comprehend. I can play many many chords and read music, but my old music teacher I think had a point when he said that the more complicated the music was, the more the composer was trying to show off HIS expertise, whilst making it totally indecipherable to most players.

So enjoy whatever keyboard you have , and play it. the rest is theoretical.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Eileen :

It is not the first time we hear Yamaha UK are offering their customers and endusers such an excellent after sales service. 
IMHO Yamaha's UK office is the only export division that gives this kind of service, am I right ?
The Yamaha UK customers are the lucky ones.

Regards, JH

[Duffy]

It  depends what we mean by complicated.
Any arranger can be played in a simple manner or you can set up to be another symphony  orchestra with numerous splits etc..
I like loads of buttons, sliders and knobs and will use them all at some time or other.
I truly prefer buttons etc. to touch screens but that's just my preference and each to his own.
One thing I do NOT want is artificial intelligence bringing to keyboards.
When I play, I know exactly what I want it to sound like and we don't want keyboards thinking they know better.
I have to stop my smart TV from accessing the internet and asking questions because I will always decide what I choose to do next.
Smart usually turns out to be stupid.

[EileenL]

The keyboards today contain everything certain people want. The beauty is you choose what you want to use and you make your keyboard your own by arranging how you want a style to sound and how you want your voices to sound. We all hear things differently. If we don't think a certain voice sounds like we are used to then we can tweak it to our own liking.
  The thing is the choice is there if we want it. That is what an arranger keyboard is all about.

[Duurduur]

Let me shed some light on this subject. I like challenges from time to time and with an arranger keyboard I have no shortage of those. Just trying out all the possibilities gives me so much satisfaction when I succeeded again. And keep the brain cells in good condition. And if I can't figure it out myself, we have this forum with such nice people. And that's what it's all about for me and many others, right?

[kiplis]

I know, this issue shouldn't even be brought up, but I wonder why Yamaha instruments can't talk with  (PC) computer?
Everyone has a lot of computing power on their desk, and it would be so much easier to process data on a PC-UI, and
use the workstation mainly to play music. But no, Yamaha can't think of interfaces for PC, they only have a rather modest
attempt for IOS operating systems...
By interfacing to PC, the keyboard could be quite simple (and cheaper), while the actual computing and tweaking would
be done on a computer. It would require just one interface to PC... Is that so hard?

-Kiplis-

[DrakeM]

The keyboard contains more voice choices than I would ever use. Who uses all those different string sounds? Pick one and be done. 

But just last month I used a voice I thought I would never need "Tremolo Strings".
If you are doing "You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin'" you need "Tremolo Strings".
Yamaha is way ahead of me in knowing what I am going to need. 

If I live long enough, I'll get around to needing 90% of what is included at some point. 

Drake

[AndrewKeyz]

I know, this issue shouldn't even be brought up, but I wonder why Yamaha instruments can't talk with  (PC) computer?
Everyone has a lot of computing power on their desk, and it would be so much easier to process data on a PC-UI, and
use the workstation mainly to play music. But no, Yamaha can't think of interfaces for PC, they only have a rather modest
attempt for IOS operating systems...
By interfacing to PC, the keyboard could be quite simple (and cheaper), while the actual computing and tweaking would
be done on a computer. It would require just one interface to PC... Is that so hard?

-Kiplis-

I disagree with this for several reasons.

Firstly desktop and even laptop ownership has dwindled due to the rise of smartphones and tablets, so Yamaha would need to make apps for Mac, Windows, iOS and Android and then keep all 4 up to date. In the future when development on these apps is eventually abandoned your arranger could be useless. Changes in chipsets over time causes big headaches with compatibility, see the Mac silicon stuff etc.

I think at best we could see a supportive app, that could do everything an arranger can do but isn't needed.
NEEDING an app would restrict a live performer in some ways and some would probably prefer integration with MainStage over a dedicated app even if they would be willing to take their whole computer kit along with their arranger to a performance.

Regardless, a supportive app certainly wouldn't be cheaper to develop or for the end user to buy over just not bothering with this approach since it just causes more problems than fixes anything I reckon.

For example does anyone still use the app that was developed for the Roland Integra-7? I bet it's been abandoned and forgotten about quite a bit. That was only ever on iPad I believe, not Android.

[BogdanH]

Hi Kiplis,
Maybe I don't understand your question correctly, but keyboard can be connected to PC via MIDI connection and controlled with DAW software. Of course not everything can be controlled... because it doesn't make sense. For example, when we play and wish to quickly change some setting while playing, we wish to have interface on keyboard. The main idea of arranger keyboard is to be self sufficient.

If we take that "all-in-one" characteristic from arranger keyboard, then keyboard becomes a MIDI keyboard. Now.. MIDI keyboards are much cheaper for sure, but not easier to use.

Bogdan

[Duffy]

I know, this issue shouldn't even be brought up, but I wonder why Yamaha instruments can't talk with  (PC) computer?
Everyone has a lot of computing power on their desk, and it would be so much easier to process data on a PC-UI, and
use the workstation mainly to play music. But no, Yamaha can't think of interfaces for PC, they only have a rather modest
attempt for IOS operating systems...
By interfacing to PC, the keyboard could be quite simple (and cheaper), while the actual computing and tweaking would
be done on a computer. It would require just one interface to PC... Is that so hard?

-Kiplis-

I also disagree Kiplis.
I want to keep my arranger as far away as possible from my computer.
Imagine getting that usual Windows message when working with a keyboard file  "You do not have permission to change or delete this file".
I always think "Who does this computer belong to then"?.
Don't want that happening on keyboards too.
Also don't want another update every time I switch my keyboard on.

[mikf]

I think the average arranger buyer probably has a similar view to Duffy. I  don't have a computer even in the same room as my musical instruments.
The arranger has a lot of embedded technology, and I can't completely avoid interfacing with it, but I want it to be as invisible as possible.
Mike

[kiplis]

"I know, this issue shouldn't even be brought up, but I wonder why Yamaha instruments can't talk with  (PC) computer? "

I told you so  , FAX is not the thing for the future any more....

[adrianed]

Divemaster,
I like your comments about printers and composers making sheet music more complicated by using many flats or sharps ie lifting the pitch higher or lower
It would help many starters if the music was written with the sharps and flats written in where they occur every time they occur
Obviously it can't be done with all kinds of music
I am not proposing changing the present method of indicating the scale at the beginning of the score
I started trying to write them in but could not write small enough
Adrian

[mikf]

It would help many starters if the music was written with the sharps and flats written in where they occur every time they occur .........................
I started trying to write them in but could not write small enough
Adrian

Adrian  - I would say you found out pretty quickly why they use key signatures and don't write in sharps and flats where they occur 
Mike

[adrianed]

Mike, I will try anything, win some, lose some
Adrian

[DrakeM]

I am not proposing changing the present method of indicating the scale at the beginning of the score
I started trying to write them in but could not write small enough
Adrian

Use a "RED" Sharpie pen -- and just make a single red dot next to it.

I use numbers in a straight line  ....  and not notes or a scale.

Drake

[mikf]

These simplified systems work ok for a melody line on a lead sheet, or extremely simple full notation, but the normal system was devised for playing full notation of anything - Chopin, etc.
Mike.

[adrianed]

You are right Mike, I did concede that I didn't expect it to be feasible for all music and it is not very posh
I suggest it could be used to help individuals to get used to playing those type of scales and then move foreword
Use any means available to get ahead it beats boring running the fingers up and down the scales and a lot more interesting
Adrian

[adrianed]

Yes Drake a good idea, perhaps red for sharps and another colour for flats
Not sure what you meant about numbers in a straight line
Just wondering how to mark them on my pc because that is where they are as pdf files
Adrian

[SciNote]

...

My own particular bugbear is with music scores. Why some composers write them with 5 flats or 5 sharps I know not, but I completely avoid such music. It's way too complicated for my old head to comprehend. I can play many many chords and read music, but my old music teacher I think had a point when he said that the more complicated the music was, the more the composer was trying to show off HIS expertise, whilst making it totally indecipherable to most players.

So enjoy whatever keyboard you have , and play it. the rest is theoretical.

Yes, it is possible that some composers are just showing off when using more complicated key signatures.  But there could be other reasons.  First of all, some key signatures, with their combinations of black and white keys, are just more comfortable to play in for certain songs.  Think of the traditional blues scale -- typically C, D, Eb, F, F#, G, A, Bb, then C.  Once you learn that scale and start doing blues improvs with it, it feels so natural that this scale in other keys just doesn't feel as fluid and natural -- at least, to me.

Secondly, a less often used key signature can make a song stand out, audibly.  In a sea of songs played on the radio in keys such as C, F, or G, when something suddenly comes on in, say, Db (5 flats), it can create a sound that stands out on a subconscious level, even for people who are not musicians, because it doesn't just fit in the "matrix" of the more commonly used keys.  In my experience, Vangelis likes the key of Db, which is the key that Chariots of Fire is written in.

[mikf]

When writing songs or opera most composers will set the key so the melody suits the range of the likely singers. When writing orchestral pieces or band arrangements the piano key becomes somewhat moot because many of the orchestral instruments read in different keys. Then as SciNote says sometimes composers like how it sounds in a particular key.
And you have to remember that for highly proficient players, different keys are not that much of an issue. A concert pianist will not see Db as any harder than G. They don't have the same limitations that we on this forum have. Imagine trying to catch Hussein Bolt or get in a boxing ring with Mike Tyson. That's how far ahead of us really good players are.
Mike