Piano Voice comparison

[mikf]

Maarten - if you are wrong it will put you in the majority LOL
Mike

[Toril S]

Like in all blind tests, most people are wrong

[Dromeus]

Here's another wrongo guess... 

B and D are very very alike... C surprises me, Yamaha pianos are quite bright, this one is warm, and I think this is where the original MIDI recording was done.

So my wild speculation:

A = Genos
B/D = PSR S975/Tyros 5
C = CVP

My fav is C.

[mikf]

So now all is revealed.
A - Genos
B - 970
C - CVP 605
D - Tyros 5
Some got some right, I think one or two got them all correct. Not sure of they have very discerning hearing or if it was blind luck, law of averages!
But most did not and an interesting point for me was how several rated B, the lowest cost keyboard on the list.

The main feature of the comparison was not the differences, but that it was so little. And that is even when you are trying hard to hear differences, not just listening to a performance. Most people were probably not even listening to the music, just focussing on the sound - and it was still hard.
But I am not saying there is no difference. I am sure that with a more technical test the differences might be more obvious, but they are really small at the level where it matters - when played normally. Certainly as I have said on this forum many times, the piano voice on even the much older arrangers like the PSR 3k, -the first model I had - was good enough. Put simply, no listener is going like or dislike what they hear because of the model or piano voice. it's what is played that matters.

So why do so many people think the piano voice on Yamaha arrangers is poor?
I believe it is because of how they are mostly used by arranger players, - single note melody line over full accompaniment and they feel like they would like a much richer sound. Yamaha could probably do that, and there have been many modified voices posted that achieve this. But then it may not sound like a piano when fully played as a piano.
I hope some of you found this an interesting exercise.
Thanks again to Toril for her help, and thanks to everyone who took the time to listen to the samples.
Mike
 

[PhotoDoc05]

Mike,
Thanks for all of your comments, and I think your theory and explanation is correct, about Arranger style playing vs Full Piano style playing.

One follow up question, just out of curiosity. You have experience with multiple models of keyboards. So, is your actual playing affected by the different keybeds?
In other words, instead of playing back a MIDI to compare the voices, do you have any comments regarding the influence of the keybeds when you are playing them?
Or, maybe it doesn't really matter, because perhaps you are compensating for their different characteristics? Do the keybeds affect an experienced players performance?

Jerry

[Toril S]

It is interesting that people liked the B sample best. I tend to agree with them. The S975 is a very well balanced keyboard. So I am holding on to mine.

[PhotoDoc05]

Yes Toril, I was one of those who liked B (975) the best, in the blind test. It's hard to describe exactly why it sounded best to me, other than the lows and highs sounded well balanced, and just a very good pleasing sound.
Jerry

[mikf]

One follow up question, just out of curiosity. You have experience with multiple models of keyboards. So, is your actual playing affected by the different keybeds?
Jerry

Provided the voice is at least adequate, feel of a keyboard is always going to be more significant.  You do adjust but it's more satisfying when the keyboard feels right.  Some are better than others, but nearly all arrangers will feel light and unresponsive to piano players. However, organ, synth and accordion players often prefer it to the heavier, more responsive piano feel. So it's personal.
The main advantage of the CVP605 for me is that it feels more like a real piano, and I made the midi on it. Having said that, it still falls well short of the feel of a great piano.
Mike

[Dromeus]

the CVP605 ... feels more like a real piano, and I made the midi on it.

To me it was immediatly clear that C must be the CVP. I expected that you would choose the GH action keys to record the MIDI file, and you went for a mellow tone and subtle dynamics, that fits a ballad type song like Misty. If you take this MIDI file to an arranger keyboard it will sound very different, which can be heard in the recordings.

nearly all arrangers will feel light and unresponsive to piano players. However, organ, synth and accordion players often prefer it to the heavier, more responsive piano feel. So it's personal.

As a piano, organ and synth player I find it extremly important to have the key action that suits the instrument I'm playing. Graded hammer action for the pianos, waterfall keys for the organ and light action for synth sounds.

[The CVP] still falls well short of the feel of a great piano.

Surely it is a matter of personal preference, but for me the TOTL Kawai keyboard action is unmatched. I use a MP8-II stage piano ("AWA Grand PRO II" action with wooden keys) in my studio and I just love it. There is absolutetly no reason to upgrade to a newer model. Of course this great action comes at a price: the weight is high and it therefore never leaves my studio. On the road I have to compromise *sigh*.

[mikf]

You are correct the at the end of the day personal preference is what matters. In most top end acoustic pianos like Steinway and Bosendorfer, the action can be made wonderful, but it takes work and constant care. IMHO Kawaii pianos have the best action in the keyboard world, their use of carbon fiber has made the action not just very responsive but extremely stable and easy to maintain. My Shigeru Kawaii grand feels like playing on silk. Digital pianos are what they are, they stay very stable, need almost no maintenance, but you can't do much to them.
Mike

[DerekA]

Hi Mike, can you share the MIDI file that you used for the comparisons?

[mikf]

Derek
Here it is.
https://app.box.com/s/pkf26ryjc22xfofz1a9g4ufcn4whtk4p
Mike

[DerekA]

Sorry Mike for some reason I've only just seen this -;thank you

[rodrigo.b]

Hi, thank you for doing the comparison and for the midi file. I render the same midi file using Pianoteq 7.1 virtual instrument and here is the result https://drive.google.com/file/d/18Xw3ROZHV0Opda_2R95HUgbW5bYTr2SB/view?usp=sharing

[mikf]

Rodrigo
I just got round to listening to this properly because I have been pre -occupied with moving back from the UK to the USA over the last week. I had 7 months of mail to go through.
The difference is small, and not enough to make a performance good or bad, but for my money the virtualize instrument voice you posted is definitely the best, a little ahead of the CVP.  It has a fuller sound, closer to a good real grand. 
BTW - who was that playing, they are really good LOL
Mike

[Drsun19]

We can make a videocall if you want, i had the same peoblem. Write me pm

Luis.

[mikf]

I think this may have been posted in the wrong topic???

[Amwilburn]

Absolutely fascinating thread, thanks Mike!

I correctly guessed the CVP was C *because* of the low volume level, which would lend itself more to a more dynamic range; And since the T5 and s970/s975 should sound the same, I assumed I would just listen for the 2 that sounded the same... nope! Maarten correctly predicted that the T5 sample would sound drier.  But through my crappy computer speakers I could not hear the difference between A & B!

That's saying something, because the Genos through a GNSMS01 and the PSRs970/s975 through its own speakers sound *very* different in person. In person, the s970/s975 piano sounds clear, yes, but not as 'open' as the Genos (which is spectacularly clear... but still doesn't sound as good as the CVP809 through its own speakers)

What speakers you're using makes a *world* of difference.

[mikf]

Mark
Another way of looking at this - there are four things that potentially make a difference to the enjoyment of piano playing on these arrangers,
1. the sample quality and on board sound generation
2. the devices through which you play the sound, ie speakers, headphones
3. The quality of the playing
4  feel of the keyboard
Over the years we have seen hundreds of posts focused on #1, but this thread shows that it is maybe less than 5% of any perceived difference. So little that most people cannot pick it up.
#2 matters, but is eliminated when you play them all thru the same device. #3 matters the most by a country mile but for good players this is also affected by #4.


Mike