CVP805 Piano sounds

[patvers]

I own a CVP805 piano since more than a year. I'm very pleased with the sound quality of all instruments and styles except the piano sounds. I'm not the greatest pianist but for me all pianos sound artificial. I have read reviews on the internet, watched democlips on youtube and they all are very excited about the sound of the CFX and Bosendörfer. I can't share their excitement. For me the sound is thin and mellow and changing VRM-settings or EQ-settings does not solve the issue.  Single notes between C4 and F5 sound for me very badly and artificial. When I play chords, it's a bit better. I even asked a good piano player that I know to play on my instrument, as to exclude my own technical skills as the limiting factor.
I would like to know if other CVP805 owners have similar experiences or not. Please share your thoughts.

[overover]

Hi patvers,

I do not own a CVP (but only Tyros5 and Genos).

If you haven't tried this yet, I recommend to set the Master EQ to "Flat" and either switch OFF the Master Compressor or set it to the preset "Natural".

Have you perhaps changed the Master EQ settings in such a way that the style accompaniment and the "non-piano" voices supposedly sound "good" (e.g. boosting the low and high frequency bands)? Then the Piano voices would probably no longer sound optimal (because they had too much bass and treble, but at the same time too few mids).

The room acoustics also have an influence on the sound reproduction that should not be underestimated. For example, if the CVP is right against a wall (or "worse" right in a corner of the room), you will likely have an overemphasis on the low frequencies.

This could be remedied by a slightly different positioning in the room, or you could try to lower the interfering frequencies accordingly with the master EQ.

Incidentally, with the Master EQ the bandwidth of the three middle frequency bands can be set (using the "Q" controls): I recommend setting a large bandwidth for INCREASES (e.g. Q = 0.7), but rather a narrow bandwidth for DECREASE (e.g. Q = 1.5 or higher). In this way, interfering frequencies can be reduced in a targeted manner without seriously affecting neighboring frequencies.


By the way: How are you satisfied with the sound through headphones? When using good headphones, the overall sound (including Piano voices) should already be very good with the standard setting (Master EQ "Flat" / Master Compressor "Natural").


P.S.
You may be playing with a relatively light touch ("playing strength") so that you normally cannot reach higher velocities. Then it could help you if you change "Menu > Keyboard > Setting > Touch Response > Touch Curve" instead of the standard setting "Medium" to "Soft 1" (produces a relatively high volume with moderate playing strength) or "Soft 2" (produces relatively high volume even with light playing strength). It is of course important that all three boxes (Left, Main and Layer) to the right of "Touch Curve" are checked.


Best regards,
Chris

[mikf]

Well they are artificial, just as the sax, trumpet and all other voices are artificial. Very close and mostly very good, but not the real thing.
The CVPs have really good feel and piano sound, compared to other electronic keyboards and much better than the many bad pianos I was forced to play at times. But there is no way they will ever sound or feel like a top quality real piano. That is reality.
The other thing is that it is interesting - you mention single notes sounding worse than chords. People playing arrangers typically play single note melodies over accompaniment, and how 'thin' the arranger piano sounds has been a constant theme here. People are always experimenting with 'thicker' sounds but I think it is more about how it is played because good piano players don't play the instrument like an arranger. Listen to Dalekwars playing piano on an SX900 and tell me it doesn't sound good. How it is played matters. And BTW, those thicker sounds often sound terrible when it is played as a pianist would, with sustain, and lots of chords in both hands. It gets messy and fuzzy.
You might also want to take a look at this thread from last year with its links, comments and recordings.
https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,57649.msg447907.html#msg447907
Mike

[rodrigo.b]

I have the CVP809 and I love the Piano voices but I also have a VST instrument called Pianoteq 7 and the sound of it is very realistic (especially the Steinway D instrument pack). Maybe Pianoteq works for you too.

[mikf]

Rodrigo
I assume to use pianoteq you need to link to a computer while playing. It may be a nice sound, but it would kind of defeat the purpose of having a CVP. Most people would want to invest in a CVP as a living room instrument not something you need to have a computer connected to with wires, like in a studio.
I think we included the pianoteq comparison you sent to me in the piano voice comparison thread. It was definitely the best sound in my view, but not startlingly better. Certainly wouldn't make it worth the trouble of carrying my computer into my living room and wiring it up - which would drive my wife mad anyway, and its definitely not worth that.  She thinks we spent the money on a CVP to get away from that tech studio look.
Mike

[Toril S]

Record a song using the piano sound and post it here please. It would be interesting to hear it. In the piano test we made there was very little difference between the models. BUT there are some huge difference between the players! There is a reason for me choocing an arranger, I don't have to play the piano much When I do, it always sounds thin. With power chords and lots of sustain it does not, but then you have to be a good piano player....

[patvers]

Hi overover,

Thanks for your reply. I play with headphones (Sony WH-1000XM3 connected to the headphone output) and without, depending on the situation.
I feel no big difference in the piano sound quality between the two.
Maybe a stupid question from my part, but what do you mean by increases and decreases?  I checked the Q-factor and I see three frequencies: 500Hz, 1KHz and 4KHz. Which one is increase and which one is decrease?
I 've changed the keyboard velocity to soft2 and it sounds a bit fuller. But I'm not yet fully satisfied and I'm thinking of selling the instrument and to go for another one with a better piano sound...

Patrick

[patvers]

Hi Toril S

I have recorded a very simple "song" with simple basic tones. I know I can get the sound richer and fuller by adding chords and sustain, but a CVP805 that costs a fortune has to give IMHO a good sound even without adding these techniques. I miss the warmth in the sound, for me it is the sound of a very cheap keyboard and not of a CFX Grand Piano on a high-end CVP.
Link to the sound file:https://drive.google.com/file/d/1StcE58wdpw-wIDUvFe8SAnanZ13uW7je/view?usp=sharing

[Toril S]

Thanks for the demo. It sounds clear and good to my ears. But if possible I would try another CVP in the store. If this one sounds better to you it may be that the EQ is not set  right for your room.

[mikf]

Patvers
I don't think we can learn much from your simple recording of a  scale. Did you listen to the sample comparison on the link I gave you, or Dalekwars recordings on the SX900. In particular listen to the rich piano sound on Dalekwars recent recording of "I don't want to miss a thing"  In all honesty, do these recordings sound like cheap thin pianos? The use of sustain, player dynamics, chords and how the harmonics fit together are all part of what makes a piano sound.
Having said that it is your money so really only your opinion matters. But I am a lifetime piano player, Dalekwars was a professional concert pianist, and there are other very competent players who disagree with your assessment of the piano voices on these TOTL Yamaha arrangers.
There are some dedicated digital pianos out there from Kawaii and others that might arguably sound better than the CVP, but not quantums better, and they will have none of the other CVP features. And let's keep everything in perspective, the CVP costs about one tenth the cost of a real CFX grand which has no other voices, auto accompaniment, recording capability etc  - so decent though the CVP might be, the piano voice is never going to be the same thing as having a CFX in your living room. I have a CVP and also top quality grand piano precisely for that reason, they are not the same.
But as I said at the start - it's your money.......
Mike

[Amwilburn]

The 805 in the store sounds really good. Really clear, but still a bit "digital" sounding. The CVP809, Genos, and N1x, CLP785/795 (and the Nord Grand, *if* we use headphones or a pair of QSC K12 speakers) are the only ones that sound even better.

But as most of the smoothness of the piano sound comes from using the sustain pedal, it *will* sound underwhelming without.

Mark

[mikf]

Patvers
I have a suggestion to test out your CVP before you give up on it.
Go to the piano voice comparison thread that I gave you the link for, listen to the sample C ( CVP). Use headphones. If you think it sounds like a really bad piano, then I am afraid the CVP is just not to your liking, and that is that. 
But if it sounds ok to you then scroll down the thread and you will find the original midi used for the comparison test. Download it to to a USB, take the USB to the CVP and play it. Listen through the same headphones. It should sound about the same as the acoustic version, if not then maybe there is something not right with your CVP or it's settings.
If it sounds about the same, then play it through your speakers. If it does not sound good, then either the equalizer settings are not right for your room, or you just dont like the speakers. Bear in mind though, that no matter how good the speakers, things almost always seem better through good headphones.
if you dont like any of them, you might well have bought the wrong instrument - the CVP is obviously not meeting your expectations, which is bad ( expensive) news.
If they all sound OK though, then the problem is with the playing technique, not the CVP, and you can't buy that. 
The test should tell you something, but just for fun, I am putting my money is on the last point - why - think of this, ......if your had a 12 year old granddaughter who had been learning violin for two years and you gave her a Stradivarius, could she produce the same tone as Yehudi Menuhin  or Itzhak Perlman?? Of course not. Playing technique matters, and usually much more than the instrument
Mike

[Kenneve]

I recall attending a Yamaha Demo Concert held at a local hotel, prior to the purchase of my 805.
On stage were  setup the 805 and the 809, both linked to the same amplification system.
To my ears, the piano sounds of both instruments were identical, when played via the same system.

I mostly play using headphones and have 2 pairs, a pair of Yamaha HPH-150B and a pair of relatively old Sennheiser HD-201.
I find the Yamaha, more sensitive, but perhaps a mite bass heavy and much prefer my old Sennheisers.

[mikf]

And I bet you though both sounded very good. Patvers does not like the sound, he feels it sounds cheap and thin.
Mike

[Kenneve]

Yes indeed, I don't think I would have brought one otherwise,👍

[patvers]

Patvers
I have a suggestion to test out your CVP before you give up on it.
Go to the piano voice comparison thread that I gave you the link for, listen to the sample C ( CVP). Use headphones. If you think it sounds like a really bad piano, then I am afraid the CVP is just not to your liking, and that is that. 
But if it sounds ok to you then scroll down the thread and you will find the original midi used for the comparison test. Download it to to a USB, take the USB to the CVP and play it. Listen through the same headphones. It should sound about the same as the acoustic version, if not then maybe there is something not right with your CVP or it's settings.
If it sounds about the same, then play it through your speakers. If it does not sound good, then either the equalizer settings are not right for your room, or you just dont like the speakers. Bear in mind though, that no matter how good the speakers, things almost always seem better through good headphones.
if you dont like any of them, you might well have bought the wrong instrument - the CVP is obviously not meeting your expectations, which is bad ( expensive) news.
If they all sound OK though, then the problem is with the playing technique, not the CVP, and you can't buy that. 
The test should tell you something, but just for fun, I am putting my money is on the last point - why - think of this, ......if your had a 12 year old granddaughter who had been learning violin for two years and you gave her a Stradivarius, could she produce the same tone as Yehudi Menuhin  or Itzhak Perlman?? Of course not. Playing technique matters, and usually much more than the instrument
Mike

Hi Mikf
I've done the test as you suggested and played the MIDI file. It sounds like I expected, I miss the warmth of an acoustic piano sound. So the conclusion is simple: or I accept the sound or I sell the instrument. Tweaking and better technique can improve things but the result will never be drastically different in my ears, because the basic sounds from the samples stay the same. But anyhow thanks for your response, it helped me a lot to gain insight in the problem.
Another question: when I play the midi file, the instrument is always the CFX. I have not found a way to change that. Even if I select another piano, the sound of the midi file does not change. Is there a possibility to test the midi file with the other piano sounds of the CVP?
Patrick

[rodrigo.b]

Hi Mikf
I've done the test as you suggested and played the MIDI file. It sounds like I expected, I miss the warmth of an acoustic piano sound. So the conclusion is simple: or I accept the sound or I sell the instrument. Tweaking and better technique can improve things but the result will never be drastically different in my ears, because the basic sounds from the samples stay the same. But anyhow thanks for your response, it helped me a lot to gain insight in the problem.
Another question: when I play the midi file, the instrument is always the CFX. I have not found a way to change that. Even if I select another piano, the sound of the midi file does not change. Is there a possibility to test the midi file with the other piano sounds of the CVP?
Patrick

You need to change the sound from the mixer. Then go to the song creator, press setup, mark everything and then save the midi file.

[mikf]

It's worth checking with the Bosendorfer voice because it is a warmer sound. I personally like the crisper tone of the CFX for recording.
Mike

[stephenm52]

Just my 2 pennies worth. Years ago I worked for the Steinway dealer in sales and access to any Steinway we had in the store.  The owners also owned a Yamaha store.  There is nothing in my opinion that can beat the sound of playing a live grand piano.  At one time I also owned a 6 foot Samick grand, at least for me not having to have it tuned 4 times per year was worth getting a CVP307. 

[mikf]

Just the same as an electronic keyboard cannot beat  the sound of a real sax in the hands of a good player, or a great guitar or a trumpet or .......
The electronic voices are great but they are imitations of the real thing, not the real thing.
However, having said that most of the piano sounds are really pretty good and more than acceptable when played well. Much better than the junk pianos I used to have to play in various halls and pubs.
I probably shouldn't say this but I will ... it seems to me that the people who complain about the quality of the piano sounds on the arrangers usually can't play piano very well, while the accomplished piano players are mostly pretty happy with them.   
Mike

[Kenneve]

Well said, Mikef

[stephenm52]

Just the same as an electronic keyboard cannot beat  the sound of a real sax in the hands of a good player, or a great guitar or a trumpet or .......
The electronic voices are great but they are imitations of the real thing, not the real thing.
However, having said that most of the piano sounds are really pretty good and more than acceptable when played well. Much better than the junk pianos I used to have to play in various halls and pubs.
I probably shouldn't say this but I will ... it seems to me that the people who complain about the quality of the piano sounds on the arrangers usually can't play piano very well, while the accomplished piano players are mostly pretty happy with them.   
Mike

Mike yes you are spot on!

[Toril S]

Right on the mark!