Is it possible to recreate joystick modulation using modulation insertion effect

[reya]

Hi

I was wondering if it is possible to recreate the effect, obtained by moving the joystick upward, by using an insertion effect.
I have been trying to but with no success.

First part of the problem would be to figure out which insertion effect is behind the joystick upward movement.
Does anybody know of a way to figure this out ?

And then the second part would be the settings for that insertion effect ....
I am hoping that that would  be manageable once the correct insertion effect is known.
But I may be wrong of course 

Thanks in advance

Rudy

[Dromeus]

The joystick upward/downward movement controls the modulation, there is no insertion effect involved. Just go to [Voice Edit][Controller] to see the settings. Modulation may control the following parameters of the sound generator:

- Filter
- Amplitude
- LFO Pitch
- LFO Filter
- LFO Amplitude

You can setup different settings for up- resp. downward movement.

The Genos is very limited when it comes to assigning sound parameters to its controllers.

[DerekA]

As Dromeus says, that's not how it works.

But can you say why you are trying to do that? Maybe we can suggest a way to get the result you want.

[reya]

Thanks Michael, I did not know those [Voice Edit][Controller] settings reffered to the joystick. Good to know, this may help.

Thanks Derek, I am trying to find a way to save the joystick modulation effect into a registration button.
Currently we can memorise the modulation effect by using the 'modulation hold' button, but we cannot save it into a registration file.
Also when activating this 'modulation hold', pressing a registration button causes it to switch off, even with freeze activated on the voice ...
[edit] just noticed that with feeze on the voice activated, the modulation effect stays active (even though the 'modulation hold' is turned off), but I find freeze not accurate enough for voice tuning ....

Rudy

[jwyvern]

Rudy, I'm not sure which KB you have but if it is one with "Live Control" you  can assign one of the knobs (or sliders if Genos) to Modulation and use that instead of the joystick. I have not checked to see what happens when registrations are changed but Live Control settings are saveable if you tick the box.
John

[Dromeus]

Unfortunately, John's suggestion will not work. You can save in the registration that modulation is assigned to some live control, but the current value of the modulation control (the position of the joystick) will not be saved.

Rudy, what you can do: first you have to check which parameters are affected by modulation control. Each voice may have it's very own setting how to react to modulation.

If modulation modifies Filter and/or Amplitude only, you should be able to achieve that effect as follows:

- Filter: use the [Voice Edit][Sound] page to tweak Filter Cutoff.
- Amplitude: use the [Voice Edit][Common] page to tweak volume.

As soon as the LFO is involved, you won't be able to change that using onboard Voice Edit. You will have to use YEM which allows some deeper voice editing. Be prepared to make the changes at the element level. Depending on the voice you may have to edit up to 8 elements. Use YEM Voice Editor, section LFO to control  A.Mod Depth, P.Mod Depth, F.Mod Depth. Of course you may change filter value and volume too in section General.

Be warned that S.Art2 voices don't use the joystick to modify LFO parameters, but will modify whatever was programmed by the voice designer, e.g. trigger alternative samples of the voice. That's why you will find, that for such voices [Voice Edit][Controller] doens't let you modify LFO settings, it is grayed out. YEM doesn't even let you edit S.Art / S.Art2 voices at all.

Hope it makes all sense...

[jwyvern]

Yes Dromeus is right. The modulation can be saved in a Reg and it appears to be good because the saved value returns every time that Reg is activated. But even so the returned mod value has no instant effect on the voice, so that workaround is not effective.
Modulation appears to be out of line with other live control parameters which do give their expected effects when saved in registrations. Without using the 3 letter word, maybe it has just been overlooked in the software,   
John

[reya]

Rudy, what you can do: first you have to check which parameters are affected by modulation control. Each voice may have it's very own setting how to react to modulation.

If modulation modifies Filter and/or Amplitude only, you should be able to achieve that effect as follows:

- Filter: use the [Voice Edit][Sound] page to tweak Filter Cutoff.
- Amplitude: use the [Voice Edit][Common] page to tweak volume.

As soon as the LFO is involved, you won't be able to change that using onboard Voice Edit. You will have to use YEM which allows some deeper voice editing. Be prepared to make the changes at the element level. Depending on the voice you may have to edit up to 8 elements. Use YEM Voice Editor, section LFO to control  A.Mod Depth, P.Mod Depth, F.Mod Depth. Of course you may change filter value and volume too in section General.

Be warned that S.Art2 voices don't use the joystick to modify LFO parameters, but will modify whatever was programmed by the voice designer, e.g. trigger alternative samples of the voice. That's why you will find, that for such voices [Voice Edit][Controller] doens't let you modify LFO settings, it is grayed out. YEM doesn't even let you edit S.Art / S.Art2 voices at all.

Hope it makes all sense...

Yes it makes sense, thanks!
One of the voices does in fact use LFO parameters.
I had a look at the voice LFO settings in YEM, and I am afraid it is (currently) beyond my skills 
Nevertheless I again learned a couple of things about Yamaha keyboards, and I am glad about that.
Thanks a lot for the detailed information.

And what my original goal is concerned, (saving the joystick mod effect into a registration button) ... I guess that will have to wait untill Yamaha decides to make it possible in a future firmware update ...

All the best!

Rudy

[Joe H]

You might try to create a Voice in YEM that uses the Pitch Envelope.  You can set the Rate (speed) and Depth (how much pitch change).  I don't know if there is a way to turn on and set the Portamento effect on for a Voice.  This might also accomplish what you want.

Yamaha synths have scenes which allow settings for real-time change to the Filter, Amplitude and Pitch Envelopes.  I doubt we will ever see synth features like that on an arranger keyboard; at least not anytime soon.

Joe H

[overover]

Hi Rudy,

for the joystick there are separate settings for LFO pitch (= Vibrato effect), LFO filter (= Wah effect) and LFO amplitude (= Tremolo effect) in "Voice Edit > Controller". If it is only about setting a "fixed" vibrato (so that the joystick no longer has to be operated), you can easily set this in "Voice Edit > Sound> Vibrato" (with the parameters "Depth", "Speed" and "Delay").

You can also make a (static) setting of the "Filter" (Cutoff and Resonance) here. Unfortunately there is no possibility to set "LFO Filter" (= wah effect) or "LFO Amplitude" (= tremolo effect) "fixed". You can, however, realize this relatively easily with additional effects (e.g. in the Chorus, Variation or an Insert effect block with an effect type from the category "Modulation"). See also the Effect Type List in the Genos Data List, from page 46.


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris

[Joe H]

Chris,

If Rudy is talking about Vibrato for right hand Voices, he can use the Voice Set to set Vibrato as you describe.  But if he is talking about a Voice in a MIDI file or style Part, that won't work.  He must create a special Voice in the YEM Voice Editor since the Voice Set file does not load when used in a style or song file Part.

Joe H

[overover]

Chris,

If Rudy is talking about Vibrato for right hand Voices, he can use the Voice Set to set Vibrato as you describe.  But if he is talking about a Voice in a MIDI file or style Part, that won't work.  He must create a special Voice in the YEM Voice Editor since the Voice Set file does not load when used in a style or song file Part. ...

Hi Joe,

you are of course right that the changes made to a Preset Voice and saved as a User Voice cannot be used in MIDI files or Styles, because the changed Voice Set is ignored (and the original Voice Set of the Preset Voice is used instead) .

However, this does not mean that the Voice must therefore be edited in YEM. Normally you just make the desired Voice Set settings directly in the MIDI file. In the present case it should be enough to simply set Controller #1 (CC #1) on the relevant MIDI channel to a fixed value in the first measure of the relevant MIDI file or Style (and remove any other CC #1 events on that channel).


Best regards,
Chris

[Joe H]

... In the present case it should be enough to simply set Controller #1 (CC #1) on the relevant MIDI channel to a fixed value in the first measure of the relevant MIDI file or Style...
Chris

I agree that will work if he only wants to set the depth of the Vibrato... that's a simple solution. If he wants to change the speed and depth he will need to create a special Voice. The OP wasn't really clear about what he wanted to do.

Joe H

[jwyvern]

Here is a bit of an update from my findings.
Although I have up to now not needed to set the joystick to get the sounds I am after, I have been trying for some time to get a depth and character of vibrato/ tremolo that would help to make blends of SA2 saxes, and SA2 saxes/ SA2 clarinet sound more like Glenn Miller. Generally DSP Tremolos can go part way but to sound "just right" does not seem achievable. However pushing the mod stick fully forward (in addition to the above) for the duration does give more realistic sounds in some songs especially in the more critical higher pitches.
It is not essential for me to put modulation values in registrations, but it is awkward having to set up and lock the joystick before the small number of regs that need it, particularly when switching to a new reg always cancels it! So it is quite useful to set up the alternative of a slider or knob with the mod parameter assigned to it and use that as a quick manual setting. (I don't save live control assignments to registrations either as they will stay as they are until I manually change them, if ever  ).
John