Another Voice Question

[kali291]

I have another problem with voices that I cannot understand. I get from my previous post that a voice cannot be saved on a keyboard that does not have the source voice. I am trying to revoice  a registration that has two Tyros 5 organ voices on it After I load the registration the organ voices are shown as ——- If I navigate to my User drive ( where I have those organ voice files) and select them they will load and play. The problem comes when I try to update the registration If I save it and subsequently reload it, the voice has disappeared and been replaced by ——- again ?  Surely if the voice plays then the source file is there and it should save ? Can anybody explain what I am either not doing or not understanding please. I understand things like SA2 voices cannot be used on my SX700, but that's easy to understand why the registration doesn't save because when I load the files the keys are silent These two organ voices do work They just won't save to registration. Any advice greatly appreciated Thanks.     Ron

[SeaGtGruff]

I think it depends on what the original voice is, meaning the MSB-LSB-PGM values of the original voice. If you look at documentation for the XG specification, it indicates that when a voice specified by a given set of MSB-LSB-PGM values does not exist on a given keyboard, the keyboard will either automatically choose the XG "capital" tone which has the same PGM value, or it will be silent, depending on the MSB-LSB values of the original voice. See the last 2 pages of the following document for details:

http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/pdf/XGspec2-00e.pdf

What are the MSB-LSB-PGM values of the voice, both of the original preset voice and of the user voice? Note, this is assuming that the voice file on your USB flash drive is a simple user voice, not a voice file containing an embedded sample. What is the extension on the voice filename?

[mikf]

I think you are not saving the registration with the new location for the voice in your user drive. So it will keep looking in the original location. Its not enough that the voice exists on your keyboard, the registration needs to store its exact location.
mike

[kali291]

@Michael; Thanks for reply. Voices in question are TheatreChrysAcmp.vce (MSB 104 LSB 36 PRG 19) and EuroAccomp1.vce (MSB 104 LSB 33 PRG 18) I really do not understand why I can play them but not save the registration.
@Mikf:  Thanks for reply The voice files are saved on my user drive, and not in any folder. They are then loaded from my user drive. When I then save the registration, surely that is saving the voice location as the user drive? Should I be saving it somewhere else?

[mikf]

Kali
Agree, seems like that should do it.ave you tried setting up a completely new registration using these voices?
Mike

[SeaGtGruff]

Based on the filename extensions, these are simple "user voices" that select an existing preset voice and alter its voice parameters and effects parameters.

According to the XG specs, voices in MSB 104 (hex 68) will be mapped to voices in MSB 0 that have the same LSB and PGM values if the MSB 104 voices are not found.

- If Voice MSB=104, LSB=36, PGM=19 isn't found, it will be mapped to Voice MSB=0, LSB=36, PGM=19.
- If Voice MSB=104, LSB=33, PGM=18 isn't found, it will be mapped to Voice MSB=0, LSB=33, PGM=18.

The PGM values can be troublesome, because Yamaha adds 1 to the true MIDI values in their printed documentation, and I presume in their screen displays as well, so I can't tell whether the values you listed are 1-to-128 values (the "plus 1" values) or 0-to-127 values (the true MIDI values).

Fortunately, the Data List for the PSR-SX900 and PSR-SX700 list voices for the values you gave, and they have the same names you gave, so evidently you gave the 1-to-128 PGM values.

However, the voices are listed for the PSR-SX900, but are not listed for the PSR-SX700. That means on the PSR-SX700 they'll be mapped to voices in MSB=0.

According to the XG specs, voices in MSB 0 will be mapped to voices in MSB=0, LSB=0 that have the same PGM values if the requested LSB/PGM values are not found.

- If Voice MSB=0, LSB=36, PGM=19 isn't found, it will be mapped to Voice MSB=0, LSB=0, PGM=19.
- If Voice MSB=0, LSB=33, PGM=18 isn't found, it will be mapped to Voice MSB=0, LSB=0, PGM=18.

The Data List doesn't list the XG voices, but the XG specs don't show a Voice MSB=0, LSB=36, PGM=19, which means the keyboard is presumably selecting Voice MSB=0, LSB=0, PGM=19, which is the XG "Rock Organ" voice.

On the other hand, the XG specs do show a Voice MSB=0, LSB=33, PGM=18, which is the XG "Light Organ" voice.

So what I think is happening is that the PSR-SX700 can't find the voice names for the specified MSB/LSB/PGM values, which is why it's displaying dashes for the voice names.

And since it can't find the specified voices, I believe it's falling back to the XG voices and selecting the "Rock Organ" voice instead of the "TheatreChrys Acmp" voice, and selecting the "Light Organ" voice instead of the "EuroAccomp1" voice.

You should be able to test this theory by copying your two voice files to new files, change their MSB/LSB/PGM values to MSB=0, LSB=0, PGM=19 for the first voice, and MSB=0, LSB=33, PGM=18 for the second voice, and see if the two new voice files sound the same as the two old voice files.

[Joe H]

kali291,

A User Voice is not the actual Voice, it's a Voice Set MIDI file, which contains parameter settings to alter the original Voice.  If the original Voice from the Tyros is not in your keyboard it won't play on your sx700.

Joe H

[kali291]

Thanks I think I get what you and Joe mean, but I don't understand why it won't save to a registration Even if the voice that the keyboard is playing is an xg rock organ then I would expect the registration to save something It seems illogical that I can load a voice (albeit not the correct one) and play a song but I cannot save the settings The only way I can play the same thing tomorrow is to manually load the voice.The voices I hear sound ok so if they are not what they are supposed to be, is there a way of finding out what they are and saving them to the registration? Michael, I will try your suggestion later and get back to you Thank you all for your patience
Ron

[jwyvern]

Kali,
The sx700 according to the data list does not contain the voices shown in your post. So it seems when you go to your user voice list the KB is playing substitute voices every time you load the file. However when you try to make a registration using the file the real voice nos. (not the substitutes) are recorded into the reg. but it seems the substitution process is not designed to work for regs and all you get are the dashes. Even if the reg was to play it would not be with the original voices but if you are happy with the substitutes' tones why not make a proper reg using them (assuming you can find them in preset or legacy storage.)

My understanding of how the voices are defined by regs, which does not support the view that location is critical    is as follows:

All preset and user voice details, that means voice nos. and edits are directly stored from R1, R2 etc within the registration at the time of making it with no file location info. being necessary. So when the reg. is loaded on future occasions the voice is simply re-established from that data. The file locations where we store our user voices for ready reference are not needed.
Unlike with say styles the keyboard knows the voice sample locations because they are defined by the voice nos. which are fixed in memory, and we can't move them around or delete them.

Note that edited (user) voices are also defined by the voice nos. of the the preset voices they are derived from, (together with the stored edits).
John

[Joe H]

kali291,

You have a couple of options:

1. Navigate to the Voice Category of the Voice (EP , Bass, Synth, Orchestral) and locate the substitute Voice, then select it.

2. Substitute your own Voice of choice that sounds similar.

Once you have selected the Voice you want, then save the registration and the keyboard will find it when you select the registration each time.

If it's a XG/GM Voice, then you will not be able to locate for a right-hand Voice it unless you have downloaded the XG/GM Voice Folder someone posted in the last few weeks.

Joe H

[kali291]

OK. Think I understand now. I tried saving both voices to a new registration. When I loaded the registration, the voices both showed as ----, but they both loaded and played.
I then downloaded the XG and GM voices to my user drive, and saved 'TheatreChrysAcmp' to voice 1 and 'Rock Organ' to voice 2. They were identical. So I think what is happening is exactly as Michael described. i assume that, although GM & XG voices are not listed anywhere on the keyboard, they are hard-wired into the system.
Michael: What I could not find is how to perform the 'test this theory by copying your two voice files to new files, change their MSB/LSB/PGM values to MSB=0, LSB=0, PGM=19 for the first voice, and MSB=0, LSB=33, PGM=18 for the second voice, and see if the two new voice files sound the same as the two old voice files'. Neither the loaded ----voice or the Rock Organ voice would let me into the Edit screen. I have the preset voices set to show the MSB, LSB and PGM numbers, but don't know how to change these (if I can) Any information would be appreciated.
Thank you all again for your never ending patience.
Ron

[overover]

@kali291
Hi Ron,

just to be on the safe side:

Please double-check that you have ticked the checkboxes "Voice" and "Keyboard Harmony / Arpeggio" in the Registration Memory dialog window (which shows up after pressing the "Memory" button). Note: To store the LEFT Voice, the "Style" checkbox must be ticked!

Basically it should not matter in which way the Keyboard Voice settings were originally made (e.g. manually, or by using an OTS, a Registration or User Voices). When creating a Registration (on buttons 1 - 8 ), always the current Keyboard Voice settings should be stored on the corresponding Reg button. And when the Registration is recalled later, the Voices should sound exactly as before. The needed parameter groups must be ticked (as mentioned before), and the Registration Bank must be saved of course (at least before you switch to another Reg Bank).


By the way: When using a User Voice, in some cases not the name of the User Voice file is displayed but the name of the Preset Voice that is used by the User Voice (but the SOUND is still correct).


Best regards,
Chris

[kali291]

@ overover  Hi Chris, thanks for that. It was only luck that all boxes were ticked. Had I thought about it then I would only have ticked Voice and missed Harmony/Arpeggio.
Thanks again
Ron

[Joe H]

...  i assume that, although GM & XG voices are not listed anywhere on the keyboard, they are hard-wired into the system...

They are listed only for style parts and not listed for Left and Right Voices in the Genos and PSR sx keyboards. That's why you have to have a copy of the XG/GM Voice folder on your User Drive or USB stick.  It's weird that when the keyboard substitutes a voice, that substitute Voice is not displayed.

Joe H