Good 88 key controller keyboard

[Murat]

I would like to purchase an 88key midi controller (to control and get sounds from the Genos) just to play the piano, however it doesn't need to have lots of sliders etc but the keybed and the keys needs to be superb.

Any suggestions please?

[mikf]

Murat
The problem here lies in the definition of 'superb'. The problem is that fully weighted, simulated hammer action keyboards are both heavy and expensive. It becomes a trade off in cost and portability. Another issue is that because they are expensive, the ones with better keyboards always tend to include a load of complicated features that might not be of interest.
I had a simple dumb semi weighted 88 key controller for a while and I found the action OK, and a decent cost/weight trade off, while nowhere near the feel of an excellent acoustic grand piano. It was an improvement over the pSR alone, but the problem for me was the PSR piano sound. So I later changed the dumb controller for a Yamaha stage piano which I used for a few years as a controller. I really liked it, because the feel was reasonable and I now also had the much improved piano sound. And the cost /weight trade off was also fair. The action was better than the controller, and better than the PSR or Genos, but again, not at the level of a fully weighted good hammer action. Its a trade off, our and simple.  Of course I could get digital stage pianos with much better action, but then comes the cost and weight issue.
I don't think that anyone can make these decisions for you. You have to try them yourself and see what matters the most in making the trade off between cost/weight/keyboard feel/ operating simplicity. 
On a wider topic, I know you have asked about using one arranger to control another - the Genos and Korg. I think that using an arranger as a controller for another arranger is overcomplicated, and not something I would do myself. The arrangers are very similar, so there isn't too much gain from having both, but they have different operating systems which seems an unnecessary complication to deal with in live playing for the relatively small gain in additional features or sound. And neither are 88 key, which for a piano player seems like the biggest attraction of a controller. But this depends on your personal interests. I have little interest in the ability to 'play around' expansively with sound, effects, or complicated features. Although I have an extensive technical background, when I sit down to play I want the technical part to get in the way of making music as little as possible. The problem with the digital piano/ arranger set up is that the piano sound could not be recorded through the PSR, so I then added a recording studio, mixers and separate sound systems. It became a real workshop. 
I ultimately decided to go the route of the CVP, which rolls together the arranger and the and high level digital piano into one simple instrument - no wires everywhere, or multiple operating systems, so that shows my bias. It also kept my wife happy because it looks so much better than the 'workshop' look of my previous set up. But then we all want different things. 
Hope this helps.
Mike

[Murat]

Hello Mike, thanks.

I agree with you, what does 'superb' mean; this will change in every single persons opinion. I am a home player so I don't gig, and it will be extremely rare that I will be moving the keyboard/s.

I think, for me, semi-weighted will do, however I wish it was possible to try around 10 keyboards to see which I like the feel of.

Another dilemma I have is the keyboard I currently have, could they be good enough? I have the Genos and Korg pa3x76, as you know the Genos keys are synth-like and too soft but the Korg is fine as a semi-weighted keys. So, at the moment, I put both keyboards together Korg on top. However, for piano playing this is not ideal as the piano keyboard should be at the correct level (not on top position) BUT I use the Genos more so I'd like it to be at the bottom, so what do I do?

Currently, looking at music shops in the UK, a lot of the 88 key controllers out of stock, some are in stock but too many of the ones I liked (after doing research and recommendations here and in Korg Forum) are out of stock.

Many years ago, I used Reason to record the songs I uploaded on YouTube, over 12 years ago.

Here is another one I recorded live playing Roland G1000, again over 12 years ago, just a short clip I had recorded to be able to send it to a friend –

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Prpy0auyzSI

I would like to find some online piano lessons for classical music, but not sure if I can do this online at my level – but I am not even sure what my level is anyway. Another question I have is that, at what point (playing capability-wise) I can justify buying whatever I like (regardless of cost or weight), if I am a rubbish player, should I spend a lot of money or should I learn and become a good keyboard/piano player before I actually spend a lot of money (I guess another question only I can answer).

[mikf]

The arranger is not the ideal keyboard for playing classical piano, although you can. There are many excellent digital pianos to choose from and which you choose is best done by trying them. Using one to act as a controller for the arranger is almost best of bth worlds. Look at my article on this - https://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/cp33.html. its 10 years old so there are different choices on the market now.
I dont think there is such a thing as 'being good enough' to justify an instrument. What you can afford is only something you can know, but you probably have to start at $1000 upwards, with many good choices around the 1500 - 2000 mark. 
Mike

[Bachus]

https://www.thomann.de/gb/roland_a_88_mkii.htm?sid=509ae7cf680ffe58eb84e912f90bcfaf

This one would be high on my list
It has great piano action (Roland fp4)
And the few controlls to the side..
You can place it directly under the genos for an organ type setup..

I however would advise you to use V-Console in this combo
It gives you the extra voices needed to play on 2 keyboards.

[C-clef]

The one I'm often referred to when looking for the best "piano feel", i.e. a really good "hammer action" with rock solid construction, is the Kawai VPC1, but it isn't cheap.
It is just for those who want to play a virtual piano with the best quality piano feel.
I don't believe there are any controls on it at all to play with!
Not quite sure whether this would work, though, with the Genos, that would need checking.

Probably the lowest cost one worth considering, with a few controls, is the M-Audio Keystation 88 II. Not at all bad for the price.

Then there's the StudioLogic SL88 and the M-Audio Hammer 88.
There are also the Nektar Impact LX88 and the Alesis Q88.

Has the Roland 88 Mkii made it to the street yet?

Just a few thoughts.

Colin.

[Bachus]

The one I'm often referred to when looking for the best "piano feel", i.e. a really good "hammer action" with rock solid construction, is the Kawai VPC1, but it isn't cheap.
It is just for those who want to play a virtual piano with the best quality piano feel.
I don't believe there are any controls on it at all to play with!
Not quite sure whether this would work, though, with the Genos, that would need checking.

Probably the lowest cost one worth considering, with a few controls, is the M-Audio Keystation 88 II. Not at all bad for the price.

Then there's the StudioLogic SL88 and the M-Audio Hammer 88.
There are also the Nektar Impact LX88 and the Alesis Q88.

Has the Roland 88 Mkii made it to the street yet?

Just a few thoughts.

Colin.

The only downside of the vpc1 i can think of is its weight and its got a round top, making it impossible to put a second keyboard on top.

[svpworld]

Check out this guy on YouTube, his reviews are very honest and he is a top pianist.

https://www.youtube.com/user/ThePianoforever

Should help you decide what's good from a pianists point.

I have an oldish Clavinova CP 170 from Yamaha and that is extremely good when it comes to getting closer to a piano feel and even sound. The Clavinova sounds different to any synth piano played through a PA or hifi speakers as it has the cabinet and a special speaker system with built in mics to emulate resonance etc. Excellent feel keyboard and midi out but as I mentioned an old model now so superseded by many others. Obviously not easily movable even at home, but if I need to record piano faithfully I'll come down to the lounge and midi up to it!

Simon

[chuckeys123]

Why not just get an 88 note dedicated digital piano? Most of what you want to do with it is play piano on it. I have the Yamaha p125. Normally about $600, but I found a new closeout for $450. Weighted action, nice feel, extremely light, 24 sounds, with midi out for running something external. I love the sound. you will pay almost as much for a controller that is totally dependent on another sound source. Here is an example of what it sounds like.       https://1drv.ms/u/s!AtrjlJRKjppflwctU2yC6UOGUdWQ

[Murat]

Yes, buying just a digital pinao might be a good idea. Can I ask though, hope you can help; if I buy a digital piano with bluetooth which you can connect external audio devices via bluetooth; are there any apps which I can play back rhythms? (probably without accompaniment (or with, doesn't matter)), any ideas?? Ps. I will pacle the digital piano away from the keyboards so, can't use the styles on the keyboards.

[chuckeys123]

Im not sure. But I know the p125 can do split keyboard. If in splitting it sends midi on 2 different channels maybe you could use just like an arranger playing wise, but of course non note style navigation (intros, multi pads, etc) would be done on your arranger

[terryB]

I looked up the P125 spec. There does not seem to be a MIDI output and one supplier indicated no Midi in their spec list.
It seems that Midi connectors are being left of a lot of keyboards the days. 

Cheers Terry

[mikf]

The P125 is a decent home use, stand alone. low cost portable piano, but it is is basic. There are many better options for not much more, to give a more pro type instrument. Paired with the arranger piano sound, something like an MAudio would be better. And there are several stage pianos in the $1000 -1500 range from Kawaii, Yamaha, Roland, Kurweil, which have the connectivity options, decent feel and piano sound. I would skip anything with built in speakers, as the PSR arranger will either already have that, or with Genos or Tyros you will already have an external sound system.
Placing the digital piano away from the arranger is a different animal. In that case you probably want a stand lone piano, maybe in a cabinet. But if I am using a portable, I would definitely want to stack them, as the overall result is much more versatile, and probably better sound.
Mike 

[Murat]

So any suggestions for an app please?
Yes, buying just a digital pinao might be a good idea. Can I ask though, hope you can help; if I buy a digital piano with bluetooth which you can connect external audio devices via bluetooth; are there any apps which I can play back rhythms? (probably without accompaniment (or with, doesn't matter)), any ideas?? Ps. I will pacle the digital piano away from the keyboards so, can't use the styles on the keyboards.

[mikf]

I am not sure what you are planning, but generally bluetooth is fine for playing back canned tracks, but not for live playing because there can be a delay (latency) caused by the processing.
Mike

[Bachus]

I looked up the P125 spec. There does not seem to be a MIDI output and one supplier indicated no Midi in their spec list.
It seems that Midi connectors are being left of a lot of keyboards the days. 

Cheers Terry

They are relatively expensive.. and you have midi over USB anyway..
Solution, use an ipad with a usb hub, connect both your genos, and your 88 keyboard
There is lots of programs that allow you to reroute the midi between both keys

[Murat]

Ok, here is what I finally did. I now have 3no instruments: Genos, Pa3x76, Kogn G1B Air.

Downstairs; I've got the Korg pa3x76 and the Genos on top of each other using a double stand (whatever the correct term is). I use a normal line output from the Genos into the Korgpa3x76's inputs. From the Korg pa3x76 to my sound system. I am very happy with this arrangement.  (I am not using MIDI at all).

Upstairs, I put my Korg G1B Air; this is a digital piano with fully weighted keys and really good piano sounds. I;ve received it a few days ago and I am over the moon. Now, my question is, this digital piano have bluetooth which lets you connect any external device which has blusetooth to playback music (use it like a bluetooth sound system). It has decent speakers and the sound quality is good. Not too great to play your MP3s in my opinion. Anyway, I am looking an app for my Android Tablet to playback rhythms (doesn't need to have chords and bass, just drums). Do you know of any android apps which can do this?

[Bachus]

Ok, here is what I finally did. I now have 3no instruments: Genos, Pa3x76, Kogn G1B Air.

Downstairs; I've got the Korg pa3x76 and the Genos on top of each other using a double stand (whatever the correct term is). I use a normal line output from the Genos into the Korgpa3x76's inputs. From the Korg pa3x76 to my sound system. I am very happy with this arrangement.  (I am not using MIDI at all).

Upstairs, I put my Korg G1B Air; this is a digital piano with fully weighted keys and really good piano sounds. I;ve received it a few days ago and I am over the moon. Now, my question is, this digital piano have bluetooth which lets you connect any external device which has blusetooth to playback music (use it like a bluetooth sound system). It has decent speakers and the sound quality is good. Not too great to play your MP3s in my opinion. Anyway, I am looking an app for my Android Tablet to playback rhythms (doesn't need to have chords and bass, just drums). Do you know of any android apps which can do this?

If it would be an ipad, there would litteraly be 100's of great apps to support you..
If you ever get a chance to find a (used cheap) ipad, bite the bullet witouth thinking..
When it comes to music, ipad is the way to go..

Sadly cant help you with android there..
Good luck with your piano choice

[Bachus]

Did i mention the Roland RD2000? Its both a stage piano and a masterkeyboard, and has one of the best 88 hammer actions on the market...

This would probably make the best companion to a Genos at this moment..

[Bachus]

Did i mention the Roland RD2000? Its both a stage piano and a masterkeyboard, and has one of the best 88 hammer actions on the market...

This would probably make the best companion to a Genos at this moment..

Altough,  Kawai MP7 SE comes close,  even better action, even better piano sounds (Roland sounds a little artificial), but a little less masterkey functionallity. But more then enough when combined with just the genos and an ipad..   and its only €1300 which is €1000 cheaper then the Roland..

Another option would be the Yamaha P515..  but far less masterkey... and i orefer teh Kawai and the Rooand action above the Yamaha NWX