Hissing noise from the line outs

[jugge]

Hi,

I just recorded some audio tracks from Genos to my Yamaha AG06 audio interface, using the line outs.
I however discovered that there was some noise in the recording as well.

It's like a hissing/humming noise and it was especially noticed in the more quite parts of the recording.
 
I also did some test with a condenser microphone directly connected to the audio interface and that was recorded fine without the hissing noise.

Should I get a soundcard with digital inputs instead or could the noise be caused by the unbalanced cables that I am using?
I am not sure switching to balanced cables would help though, because I believe that Genos are using unbalanced outputs.

On another forum, someone suggested getting a di-box, but I have no experience using one of those.

What are your experience with recording audio to an external audio interface?

Cheers
/Jugge

[rbackes]

Hi Jugge,

I had the same problems when connecting the Genos to an Audio-Interface (USB) that is connected to a Laptop or similar computer. When connecting the interface to a 'big' computer, the noise disappears. My guess is the following: Laptops and similar devices (I have an Intel NUC) with external power supplies usually only have a 2-wire connection to the power supply. The power supply might have a ground connection, but that is not handed over to the computer.
With a Laptop, you can proove that easily: just run it from its battery (disconnect power supply) and the noise will at least decrease.
As a solution, you could use a DI-Box, which is quite expensive. I bought a filter from Monacor, which is primarily used in cars https://www.amazon.de/MONACOR-FGA-40MF-Massetrennfilter-Cinch-Buchsen-Stecker/dp/B007Z4IA0G/ref=pd_sbs_267_t_0/258-1397658-0287022?_encoding=UTF8. With that, the noise went down to ~ -80dB.
The other way is to use an interface with digital input. I later bought an ESI U24 XL that has an electrical digital input. That interface works great, there are ASIO drivers available, so you get exactly what Genos outputs. I now use the filter for the playback connection from the interface to Genos.
For my recordings I use a self-compiled version of Audacity with ASIO support. You could also use your favorite DAW.

Hope that helps

Rainer

[jugge]

Thanks Rainer, I am actually using a NUC too, so I think you're spot on and I will probably start looking for a new audio interface with digital inputs. Do you know if it's possible to record the microphone if it's connect directly to Genos and using the digital output to the audio interface? I am doing this right now with the analog outputs and just want to make sure it'a possible with the digital as well. Also, which cable are you using between your interface and Genos? Looks like your interface is using optical and Genos spdif.

Thanks
/Jugge

[overover]

Hi Jugge,

as a "precaution", please check the following:

If the Aux In is not used, be sure that there are NO plugs inserted at the Aux In jacks, and also be sure that the Aux In volume is fully turned down in the Genos Mixer.

Otherwise some hiss noise could be produced by the Aux In curcuits.


P.S.
All Line Out and Sub Out jacks on the Genos are electrically UNBALANCED. Therefore, only TS cables should be used.

TRS cables, connected to a BALANCED Input of a external Mixer or Audio Interface, will not work properly with the Genos, because the "Ring" contact of a TRS plug (minus phase of the signal) is electrical NOT CONNECTED inside the Genos.


Best regards,
Chris

[markstyles]

A UPS (Uninterruptable power supply) is a great device to have, it's cleans up ground hum (especially if in old buildings),  AC is taken from the wall, cleaned and stored in a battery.  So when you are using one,  you are getting your AC from the battery.   So if someone turns on a hair dryer or other device, you will not get interference.  Also is you do use power,  The UPS will supply AC for at least a few minutes up to a much longer time (they get very expensive.

It's wise to plug all your devices or at least kbd, computer, into the same AC power strip, less chance of hum.

Also the fast and dirty way is to cut off the 'ground plug'..  The longer round one.  This can and might make possible getting other issues,
I live in an old apartment building with not the greatest AC......The UPS leaves me trouble free.

Yes, Digital inputs will bypass the ground hum..  at least coming from your keyboard. 

[travlin-easy]

I had the same problem, caused by the laptop power supply. The problem was easily and inexpensively solved by mere using a 3 to 2 AC adapter, thereby eliminating the ground connection of the AC plug. The adapters are available at most hardware stores for under $5.

Gary :cool:

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

HI

This stopped all of my noise.
Unbalanced cables IN Balanced cables OUT. Get this bit alright and then you should be ok.
My Genos is outputted to the Hum Destroyer and then to my Focusrite 6i6 sound box and then to speakers. USB to Computer running Cubase
Eileens other half and Tommy 73 put me right as I was getting the dreaded hum!!
This would work on electrical hum which is like a low buzz,very annoying.
£20 or $ 20   approx.

All the best
john

[attachment deleted by admin]

[jugge]

Appreciate all the great advices. Just to make sure I understand correctly. If the noises are caused by a ground loop issue with the computers power supply, will it still help to use the digital out on the genos?

Thanks
/Jugge

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Jugge

If it is mains hum the destroyer should work .
I have two computers in same room and only two wall sockets .
I use gang sockets with circuit protection.
All computers help on the noise front
Once i put my hum desroyer after the Genos everything to the speakers is ok.
For Main listening
I use the Yamaha DXR 8 speakers just for the Genos and without a hum destroyer it buzzed like hell. So it Cured that
These speakers are powerful but great at low quality volume and 10,000,000, times better than those widdly Satalite speakers with battery wires for £300.
Three Genos's time you would equal the price of those.
Also a 5 year guarantee.

For working on VST and Midi
I unplug those and then my outputs go to a  focusrite 6i6 and to Focal Alpha Speakers and all the leads out from the destroyer are BALANCED. Just USB to Computer.
Still no problems.

Hope some of this helps.


All the best
John

[Graham UK]

Hiss can result in the input signal not having sufficient volume into the recording device.

[jugge]

HI

This stopped all of my noise.
Unbalanced cables IN Balanced cables OUT. Get this bit alright and then you should be ok.
My Genos is outputted to the Hum Destroyer and then to my Focusrite 6i6 sound box and then to speakers. USB to Computer running Cubase
Eileens other half and Tommy 73 put me right as I was getting the dreaded hum!!
This would work on electrical hum which is like a low buzz,very annoying.
£20 or $ 20   approx.

All the best
john

Hi John,

The hum destroyer seems to be the device I'm looking for. However, you say you use unbalanced cables from genos to the  hum destroyer and then balanced cables out from the hum destroyer to your audio interface?

The line inputs on my audio interface are - as far as I know - unbalanced as well.  So the questions is if I can use unbalanced cables both in and out from the hum destroyer or would that not work at all?
The interface also have 2 XLR MIC inputs as well and they should be balanced according to the manual, so maybe I could use those inputs?

I have attached a small mp3 recording of the noise I hear, just to make sure this is really something that sounds like ground loop issue. I have added some extra gain so you can hear it better. It doesn't sound this bad in real life.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[overover]

... The line inputs on my audio interface are - as far as I know - unbalanced as well.  So the questions is if I can use unbalanced cables both in and out from the hum destroyer or would that not work at all? ...

Hi Jugge,

the Line inputs (and the Monitor outputs) of the Yamaha AG06 (Mixing Console / Audio Interface) are BALANCED. Of course, on balanced 6,3 mm input / output jacks you can also use unbalanced cables (TS plug), but if both devices support balanced connection, it will be best to use balanced cables as well.

But, as mentioned above, on unbalanced outputs (Genos) you should NOT use balanced cables, because the (balanced) inputs (of an external Mixer / Audio Interface) expect a balanced signal then, but there is no signal on the "minus phase" (Ring) contact of the plug ...


P.S.
The Behringer "Hum Destroyer HD400" in principle works like a DI Box with "Ground Lift" function. The HD400 supports unbalanced or balanced input signals. The outputs are balanced (for use with TRS plugs), but, if needed, you can also connect unbalanced cables (TS plugs) on the outputs of the HD400, of course.


Best regards,
Chris

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Chris
Thanks for explaining as i am not an electrical and wiring expert, i went on good advice and solved it my problem.
If the behringer is the right option for jugge then I see no way to pay out over £100  for so calle classier ones .
My Behringer is faultless after a year.
Can Swindon Town hammer Walsall today???  as i have to go out in that pouring and windy rain today..
I hear that England got squashed today by the Springbok!!!

[rbackes]

Hi Jugge,

Also, which cable are you using between your interface and Genos? Looks like your interface is using optical and Genos spdif.

The ESI U24XL has both optical and coax digital in/out. For the connection you can use any chinch cable (the ones for HiFi-equipment), just take only one side of the stereo pair.

Yours

Rainer

[soryt]

I had this problem also in the past , after i used a Focusrite Scarlett ( 8I6) never had any soundproblems like this .

S 

[jugge]

Hi Jugge,

the Line inputs (and the Monitor outputs) of the Yamaha AG06 (Mixing Console / Audio Interface) are BALANCED. Of course, on balanced 6,3 mm input / output jacks you can also use unbalanced cables (TS plug), but if both devices support balanced connection, it will be best to use balanced cables as well.

But, as mentioned above, on unbalanced outputs (Genos) you should NOT use balanced cables, because the (balanced) inputs (of an external Mixer / Audio Interface) expect a balanced signal then, but there is no signal on the "minus phase" (Ring) contact of the plug ...


P.S.
The Behringer "Hum Destroyer HD400" in principle works like a DI Box with "Ground Lift" function. The HD400 supports unbalanced or balanced input signals. The outputs are balanced (for use with TRS plugs), but, if needed, you can also connect unbalanced cables (TS plugs) on the outputs of the HD400, of course.


Best regards,
Chris

Thanks Chris. I am still a bit confused about this   In the AG06 manual it says that the stereo line inputs are unbalanced and the only balanced inputs on the AG06 are the two combo XLR/Line jacks. I tried to connect Genos to them as well, but that didn't sound good at all. I was able to reduce the noise quite a bit by turning the genos volume to max and turining down the gain om the AG06 to about half. The noice is still there but only noticeable on higher volumes. 
My 2 previous Yamaha keyboards had inbuilt audio interfaces and the quality was really good without any interference.  Anyway I want to try the hum destroyer, just unsure if I should get balanced or unbalanced cables, but as you say, it maybe doesn't matter.

Best regards
/Jugge

[jwyvern]

Thanks Chris. I am still a bit confused about this   In the AG06 manual it says that the stereo line inputs are unbalanced and the only balanced inputs on the AG06 are the two combo XLR/Line jacks. I tried to connect Genos to them as well, but that didn't sound good at all. I was able to reduce the noise quite a bit by turning the genos volume to max and turining down the gain om the AG06 to about half. The noice is still there but only noticeable on higher volumes. 

Best regards
/Jugge

Jugge,
I recently bought a pair of Yamaha HS8 speakers to use with Genos. Their inputs are a choice of XLR balanced, or 6mm. Jacks which seem similar to your AG06 options. Not fully understanding the implications of balanced vs unbalanced and TRS vs TS cables I experimented with the 2 types. TS cable (jack to jack) gave "normal" good results with a decent level. However connecting via TRS cables (jack to XLR) resulted in a cut in signal level to about half and I needed to turn up the volume ex Genos to compensate. Since I did not want that I reverted to TS cable and that is fine. So assuming your connections are similar I'd suggest you may want to avoid using TRS cable connected to XLR because it results in a reduced signal from the unbalanced Genos which may not be helpful in a hiss or hum situation.
For the record I did not experience intrusive noise. There is a hum from the speakers if they are on when Genos is powered off but this disappears when the KB is switched on.
John

[jugge]

Quick update. As a test to determine if the noise is caused by a ground loop, I installed audacity on my laptop, moved Genos and the AG06 from my Intel NUC to the laptop and disconnected the laptop from the power outlet and just run it on just battery.

I get the same symptom with the high pitch noise when increasing the input level on the AG06 stereo line inputs. Connecting a mic directly to the AG06, I don't hear any noise even with highest input level.

Since I get the same noise when running a laptop on just battery, I think I can rule out a ground loop issue and I guess I either have to live with it or go digital.

I have checking out the following interfaces, which both have a digital coaxial input and have a similar pricetag
NI komplete audio 6 MK2 https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/audio-interfaces/komplete-audio-6/
Focusrite Scarlett 8i6 3:e gen https://focusrite.com/audio-interface/scarlett/scarlett-8i6

Any thoughts on either of those interfaces? I had a smaller scarlett maybe 5 years ago and I think it was pretty good, but I have no experience with the native instrument interface.

Best regards
/jugge

[markstyles]

Not sure if someone directly answered the question.   Using Digital out's will eliminate line noise, AC hum.....However if something else is causing the AC hum, like any other two pieces of hardware,  like a lamp, TV, etc, you will always have the hum coming out of your set-up.. Even though it was recorded clean.  Getting one power strip and plugging all instruments, equipment you use into it, can sometimes clean things up.

The cheapest way out is to one by one, eliminate the sound plugs of your equipment, you can buy adapters (a 3 prong female socket, and 2 prong plug)..

an uninterruptible power supply, is a good answer to this.  Computers are more susceptible to dirty AC.  I had my Mac die twice, I had a warrantee with a 3rd party, they came to my home to fix it.  The 2nd time I got a 50 something guy, who had a lot more experience, than the first repairman, who just swapped a board.  The 2nd man discovered the old wiring in my building actually had 5 volts on the ground.   

My Keyboards, Yamaha and Korg, could deal with it, but after about 100 hours of use the computer.

The safest thing to do is get a UPS - this also cleans the AC, and compensates for voltage fluctuations, in the AC coming into your house, which may be prone to issues, if you live in an old building, or a rural area.   

[jugge]

I decided to try with another audio interface that had a coaxial S/PDIF input. After a lot of searching, I decide to go with the Zoom U-44. It was getting great reviews and seamed to be extremely easy to use. Just install the drivers and plugin the USB cable and you're done. All levels are then controlled on the interface itself, so there's no need for some extra software. At $140 it didn't broke he bank either.

At first I tried to record analogue, using the same method as with the AG06. No noise at all and the result was way better than with the AG06. I then I tried the S/PDIF input and it was very clean which was expected.

Will be doing some more testing over the weekend but so far I am very happy with this interface and can highly recomend it to anyone who wants to record digital from Genos.

Best regards
/Jugge

[andy_v]

HI

This stopped all of my noise.
Unbalanced cables IN Balanced cables OUT. Get this bit alright and then you should be ok.
My Genos is outputted to the Hum Destroyer and then to my Focusrite 6i6 sound box and then to speakers. USB to Computer running Cubase
Eileens other half and Tommy 73 put me right as I was getting the dreaded hum!!
This would work on electrical hum which is like a low buzz,very annoying.
£20 or $ 20   approx.

All the best
john

Many thanks! I just bought a Behringer HD400 and it has eliminated the mains hum I was picking up between the main Genos analogue outs and my audio interface.