Walking the DAW to better Genos voice changes

[Genos John]

Hi folks ..I spent a while reading past post on the forum about changing Voices on the Genos by remote midi control (In my case Cubase running on a PC and connected by traditional midi leads)

The posts I read indicated that I was not the only person having problems selecting the correct sound by sending the info from the PC. I didn't find the answer I was looking for.  I had to improvise and experiment until I found it for myself. This is my discovery and I hope it helps other Genos owners who want to control the beast by midi.

In my case, I was trying to get the Genos to use the 60sRockHero ( E.Guitar)

I sent CC0 MSB ( 8 ) CC33 LSB (35) PC  ( 8 ) and watched the Genos Mixer page on the touch screen. Sure enough, I saw Song 1 changed from a piano to the 60sRockHero so I knew I was doing things right.

This photo is the above message I sent..its from the list editor in Cubase.



I then sent my screaming hot guitar lead solo midi data and wow ..I never head such a weedy sound. 

It was like a 1970 casio acoustic guitar patch. I scratch my head for ages before I realised what was wrong. It was the raw sample without the DSP's which make it rock like the screaming hot lead guitar voice when I play it on the keyboard.

Where could I get that DSP data from ?

I read that voice edits are saved in a midi file format, although on the Genos it is saved as a .SAR file. So I saved a copy of the 60sRockHero voice to my USB and renamed it in my PC from 60sRockHero.sar to 60sRockHero.mid and imported the file into Cubase

Yeah !!   I now saw lots of Sys Ex stuff as well as the CC and PC info so thought I had cracked it.

This photo 2 shows the SAR changed to Midi in the list editor of Cubase



It looked confusing but I didn't worry.. I dont need to know every line. All I want is to hear my screaming rock solo lead played by cubase on the Genos.
I hit the play button ... and cried.

It was the exact same weedy sample sound even with all that extra info being sent.

I was about to divorce the Genos for not listening to me when the penny dropped. Cubase had sent the info to the Genos and it in turn had selected the 60sRockHero voice and the correct distortion DSP and its settings. It was all ready and waiting to play my screaming rock solo lead. However I had overlooked the fact that I had not told the Genos to turn the DSP effect on. I presumed it knew to turn it on but in fairness ..it probably also presumed I would know to turn it on.

So I then had to find out how to turn the DSP on. Its quite easy but its done by Sys Ex messages. This table below is the message to turn it off or on from the PC. And you can watch the Mixer page on the Genos change when it gets the info. I have only written out the first four channels (Song 1-4) but you can easily follow the sequence for Song 5-16



So now it was simply a case of adding the Sys Ex command to turn the DSP on , on the end of the list in photo 2 and now when I hit the play button .. the screaming rock solo sounds as it should.

Rock on Tommy !!!

I hope that helps others who are trying to control the Genos Voices and DSPs etc. Im still delving into the inner working  ..example how to change and alter the DSPs and their parameters via midi ..so will post more as I go.

Thanks for reading...any questions on this post ..just ask and I will try to answer. Keep in mind  that Im not an expert .. just digging into the depths of the Genos in the hope it will listen to me. If you know a better way ..let me know too.

[pjd]

Hi --

Yep, you're right. The DSP unit needs to be assigned to the appropriate (song) part. The situation is analogous to assigning a DSP to a part through the Genos user interface except in this case, there is a Sy*** command to do it.

Voice files (VCE, SAR, etc.) are a good place to find raw DSP programming data in MIDI form. Folks just need to remember that everything in the voice file refers to part 1 (MIDI channel 1, which is represented numerically as channel number 0).

Cut and paste is a good way to go, especially when there is an existing panel that matches the desired sound in your head! 

Take care -- pj

[Genos John]

The situation is analogous to assigning a DSP to a part through the Genos user interface

Agreed Pjd ..but that was the thing that first confused me. The Genos mixer page (see photo) is not as simple as I first thought ?



I assumed that by selecting the 60sRockGuitar in the Genos mixer (See red arrow under Song 1) that it would select the same sound that I hear when I select it with the keyboard R1 R2 etc. It does not (unless Im doing something wrong) It selects the raw sample without the Distortion DSP in the insertion effects. The insertion effects remain at the switch on default of Delay LCR1 and that is kept switched off.

I was also aware of the Yamaha "Cubase Patch for Genos" which I have installed on my version of Cubase. It is like the Genos Mixing desk in that it changes the voice to the 60sRockGuitar but without the DSP etc. I suspect all it does is send CC0 CC32 and PC info..nothing more. This photo shows the official Yamaha Patch on Cubase where I can see all the voices Genos . It would have been great if I selected that patch and I hear it the same way as R1 voice selection with DSPs etc



So unless Im doing something silly ..the only way I can think to set the mixer up easily (for voices with DSP effects) is with a few simple Sys Ex messages.

Im still working on the best way for me to control Genos remotely by midi  (Cubase) ..so will post more as I go.

I dont think its difficult to do ..but its not the obvious (to me ) way of doing things. 

As mentioned If Im doing something silly and have overlooked an easy way ..let me know too.

[jwyvern]

Hi GJ,
As you have found only voice nos. are directly loaded to the song channels (and styles). The only places full effects are loaded when a voice is selected are the panel voices R1, 2 etc. which you can see when you go to the Mixer Panel tab. So if you load the desired voice to R1 first, then record a minimum of 1 note to the DAW you should find the DAW contains the sy*** in the first bar without needing to interpret it or add it directly.

It's also possible to use registrations to change voice setups in the panel voices which will then get transmitted to the Daw if you want to make changes in solo voices or ensembles later in the Song.

John

[Genos John]

Hi jwyvern , thanks for that info and its appreciated. It confirms what I have been discovering. Perhaps my answer is in using the registration buttons more.

You are absolutely correct too in that I can record (in Cubase ) the full selected  voice with DSP etc Sys Ex on  R1 voice. That was one of my early attempts.

Unfortunately when I sent that exact same info back to the Genos .. on .. say.. Song 1, the DSP did not turn its self on in the mixer screen. I had to do it manually. Not a big problem really but my work flow when I'm composing is to do it all on Cubase, recording my playing the keyboard  there too.  At the end of the day I save the Cubase Midi file and turn off Genos. It could be a while before I work on that file again so in the past with my previous kit, I simply turn the Keyboard on (treating it like a sound module) turn on Cubase and it returns all the song tracks to how I left it last time.

It would be tiresome having to manually turn on the DSP's in the mixer every time I go back to it.(your suggestion of a registration button could save that though)  That is why Im delighted the Sys Ex messages I posted above do it from Cubase.

For Info only, I think I have started to develop my new Genos workflow routine.  I will either capture the Voice info recorded from R1 or from the SAR file as discussed for all the song track voices I intend to use, before I start.  Place that info into Bar 1 then add the Sys Exe message to turn on the DSP on the respective song tracks, to the end of that info.

Example  F0,43,10,4C,03,00,0C,00,F7 for song track 1 etc

That way, I can continue my old routine of simply switching the Genos on and have Cubase set it all up automatically. I hope that makes sense.

Its a bit more work than I first anticipated but I can put up with that for such an amazing sounding keyboard.

Perhaps one day Yamaha will update the "Cubase Patch for Genos" so it sends the full info to the Song 1-16 positions ..but until then.. Im happy I can still control it with some simple commands.

I have only started using the Genos and keyboards in general after a 12 year absense. Im from the days of Midi thru ports lol, so perhaps this is all old hat for you guys that have had it for a while, I can only apologise if I have been treading old ground.

Thanks again everyone. Im off to finish writing my rock opera now I have this issue sussed.

[Dromeus]

Hi John

I think the easiest way to setup all those PrgChg, Controller and Sy*** events for a MIDI file is to let Genos do the hard work. Recall that it offers a performance recorder (use Song Recording / Multi Recording).

• select the voice targeted at CH1 into RIGHT1
• actvitate CH1 for recording
• record a single note; all appropriate control changes / sy*** for insert effects are inserted automatically
• select the voice targeted at CH2 into RIGHT1
• actvitate CH2 for recording
• record a single note; all appropriate control changes / sy*** for insert effects are inserted automatically
• repeat those steps for any channel used in your recording; note that when activating channels 5-16 for recording, you have to set RIGHT1 as the recording source

Genos does all the setup work for you. You may tweak the voice's effect settings using the mixer before recording the single note. Note that you may use USER voices too, which may have been tweaked with VOICE EDIT. Save the MIDI file and open it in the DAW of your choice. Deleted the single notes that you recorded to trigger the channel setup. You're ready to start your creative work multitracking your next hit single  ...

BTW it's a shame that Genos cannot set controllers and effects when selecting a channel voice in the mixer. There should be a "parameter with voice" option so you can choose if you want to have the default insert effects and controllers copied to the track.

Hope this makes sense to you.
Michael

[Genos John]

Hi Dromeus , thanks for that info too. 

I had not even though of using the built in sequencer.  I have not looked at that part of the Genos in any depth yet. I have long ago memories or trying to use keyboard sequencers when keyboard only offered one line of info on a very small screen. Those experiences put me off keyboard sequencers. 

So yes what you say makes perfect  sense to me.

I guess there are many ways to skin this cat. All of them are a work around from what I was used to in the past but I guess it is the price we pay for wanting more and more complex features .

Fortunately Im generally happy with the voices so cant see me using user voices especially if they complicate things further ?  I still have a dedicated synth for patches not on the Genos. Its a bit long in the tooth now and only monophonic but gives fantastic sounds. Im glad a simple CC and PC instruction selects its voices .. DSPs and oscillators etc. Digital recording soon overcomes its monophonic limitations too.

Im having a ball with how things have moved on since I was last involved in this type of thing. The latency in the days of my late Atari Falcon and Cubase VST  of yesteryear made things impossible. This slight modern day work around in voice selection is nothing compared to those days.

Thanks again for that info and I will look into it. I knew when I got the Genos that it would take a long time to work it to its full potential, but thats why I bought it. I don't mind trying to exercise my brain as well as fingers on a keyboard. 

[Genos John]

Hi again guys ..I didn't get to finish my rock opera today after all. 

I did discover a lot more about Sys Ex messages and the way to change the DSPs so I now know how to apply the MSB and LSB numbers quoted on the data sheets . However it was not as easy as I thought by changing the SAR file to MID then placing it at the start of each song position followed by the Sys Ex to turn on the DSP. Simply because as Pjd mentioned earlier .. each and every line of relevant Sys Ex code needs changed to the Song track number -1. 

It was all turning into a nightmare for me.

However ..Dromeus ..you are an absolute rock star 

Your way of setting the tracks in the sequencer took minutes to do and I can now forget about Sys Ex, It didn't suit me anyway as I dont have enough fingers to count. You are a star.

Hopefully I can write my rock opera tomorrow and the 60Rockhero will cut through the mix the way I imagined it would 

Thank you guys for your assistance...you are all heroes in my book 

[markstyles]

If you are overdubbing a single part into your DAW.  (you have already recorded all the style parts, and adding more)..  Record the part from GENOS..  Since SY*** sends messages to specific DSPS on specific MIDI channels.  Take the track from your DAW and go to Genos MIDI/RECEIVE section..  and instead, assign the DAW track back to the same part, rather than to just 'song' recorded from Genos..  that is assign DAW track to RIGHT 1, CHORD 1, PAD, what it originally came from.  Then the sy*** will properly work.

To save time, I created what I call a MIDI Control sequence, it has some CC events (ones I use most commonly). You can certainly add as many as you want.

picture of https://app.box.com/s/bn4ylgtsde40ztkoeksu

Here is the MIDI file. Download this and drag into your DAW, or create your own, and put into a song template, so whenever you start a new project, it's already there to use (I use Logic)

MIDI - https://app.box.com/s/z3ek8mcbkh9wekrd4eza

I record my Genos 'chord' track to DAW, then always play back from there,  sync Genos to get clock from your DAW.  Then you can overdub additional parts, from different styles, to create a more complex arrangement..  I sometimes record Genos song playback (with me changing Mains parts).  Then in Logic,  I separate each MIDI channel, and assign to a different track in Logic.. I strip out SY*** so as not to have Genos play my changing of MAINS sections, or DSP effects. 

Then one by one I record MIDI parts onto a separate track into DAW..  Gives you complete control (of course it can become significantly longer, more complex process)..  But it allows you to create things impossible, by live playing.  If you carefully peruse the MIDI implementation in Genos (going back to Tyros of course, you can see, the programs, put all this access in, knowing some folks would use the Arranger kbd this way.  Years ago, I read an article by one of the software designers for Tyros, and he brought up this fact.  I should have saved it, because I've never been able to find the web page again.    I tend to use the Genos as a 'compositional tool'.  By recording Genos output, into your DAW, and displaying it as an orchestral score, it is an extremely valuable teaching tool.

Here is a piece I recently finished.  Many of the parts came from Genos, then were modified, edited, copy, pasted. Often I study what Genos played, and then play it myself. Of course I never get it right.  But end up with an 'in-between' part of machine and human.

Song - The Sunflower and the Dragon Fly - https://app.box.com/s/x2t513dsgfog4ky453uy1h5h39xpdang

Here is the score for it -https://app.box.com/s/oaogfxcgeuqiumv6wgocli5lnoci79gi

I purposely stripped out a lot of Genos 'block chording' in order to achieve a more classical approach.  Sometimes I take the 'chording' of a Genos part and 'mute' it in Logic, it shows up as darkened out, and silent of course. I then write a single note motif.

Here is a picture of what I call a CHORD Reference midi file -
https://app.box.com/s/15uaotf4jvbyfv240a20rvpcdb9skxqu

This is made by taking your chord reference track, moving all notes into one octave, then duplicating the octave up/down for six octaves.  I then mute all the notes so they are greyed out.  In Logic's piano roll editor, I can highlight the melody track I'm working on, and the CHORD Reference track.  Then I can easily and quickly create melodic lines, knowing the 'stable notes' of any section. You can/should of course add passing notes for interest (sometimes soften velocity and duration) then go to a stable note (one that's in the current chord). 

Although some will find this too much work, taking out the spontaneity of using an arranger chord.  It also allows one to create complex pieces. It is also an amazing learning tool.  I have learn't more about music using this technique, than some music courses I've taken.  The best teacher sometimes is you and your hardware.   

Hope this gives you some more ideas.   If you have a PC, there are some software programs, which let you fool around with sy***, to really get your Genos to sing..  I just don't seem to have the patience or fortitude to get a real handle on it.  I applaud you for experimenting and  figuring out how to do more complex things with Cubase and your Genos.  I think there are more guys/gals out there using a similar approach in composing.  They just don't post to Arranger websites.

Keep up the great work