I know this subject may be more than, interesting for many. But I think for most, like myself, you can't ignore the future, and what Yamaha will come out with next. Think about your Genos that some of you now own, and try to imagine, something better. It's hard for me, but technology never stops. My big thing with keyboards, all the way back to my first, Technics 600, is the styles and the voices along with everything else you can do. No, I am not bored with my Genos, just being a realist, and very curious as to, what can they improve on. For me it's styles and many more things. I will wait patiently!!
What would get my attention, for sure, if there's a major break-through on more realistic styles and voices. They're good now; but, how about styles that approximate real (live) musicians? Styles and voices are the reason I buy arranger keyboards----none of the other features. I'm ready to hear human voices in an arranger----something we've not seen or heard before. Maybe the technology is not there yet. Sort of like self-driving cars.
For starters I want blue tooth (audio & midi) on the Genos. Yes, wifi (already on Genos) is much, much faster than blue tooth. But if they added bluetooth, you could leave your wifi connected to your router, not pairing your genos and your smart device (which then forces you to surf the net via mobile data... not very practical with YouTube!) Yes you're supposed to be able to set both to the same router, but it's just so much simpler to have separate blue tooth for audio streams (even though delayed by a sec).
And would it kill them to have a mod wheel *and* a joystick? The mod wheel isn't redundant; it's great for variable data when the data needs to 'sit' at once spot, like piano lids, EP pickupdistance, string fades.
And of course, even 3GB isn't enough (well, it is, but we could also fill more!)
There's a vocaloid keyboard from Yamaha (and I believe Casio just released one as well) which hopefully will eventually be able to bring human voices to keyboards, so yeah, why not include in G2?
Quote from: Amwilburn on Feb 07, 2022, 08:35 PM
And would it kill them to have a mod wheel *and* a joystick? The mod wheel isn't redundant; it's great for variable data when the data needs to 'sit' at once spot, like piano lids, EP pickupdistance, string fades.
Remember you can assign MOD to a knob or a slider, which will stay where you put it without needing a 'hold' button
I also agree that Styles and voices are the reason I buy arranger keyboards. With the Genos there are so many things one can do. In my case, I don't read music and depend on the styles and voices. I also hope that the new Genos has more Free Play like EtherealVoices. These I use for my liturgical music. I also would like more Dedicated Styles for certain songs. Wondering if this has Copy Right Laws. But with the Genos, there is always a style that you can adjust for every song. The Genos strings are great, but the next Keyboard, I am sure will be better. I am not a piano player, but use the voice at times, and would love to see an improvement on this. I would also like the screen to be 5 x 9 inches. The space is already taken, and this size would help in adding more info per page, or larger. I guess being retired fully for the first this winter, gives me more time to think and wish!
Don't forget you can always use the Modulation Hold and the effect will stay until you take it off.
Hi
I think it is about time Yamaha got us all exited again.
New Genos , better software for making styles and more room for top samples
All the Best
John :)
I don't have a Genos but I have a CVP-809 (which has a lot of sounds and features coming directly from Genos) and I love my CVP-809 but there are things I think that can be improve. MegaVoice is an old technology and I think now you can get better results with VST instruments, so I hope the new Genos will have a better technology for strumming guitar sounds and electric guitar sounds. I also want more drums sounds because again now with VST instruments you even can get drum sounds recorded by audio legends like Al Schmitt. The last thing I want on the Genos 2 is the ability to create high quality voices (MegaVoices, Super Articulation 2 voices, Revo!, etc) and the ability to easily create high quality styles like the factory styles.
Yes I agree...guitar strumming sounds. I would also like more vocal singing choices. It takes so long to find anything for myself. If they could have presets that are made for certain songs, that would be also an improvement. I also wouldn't mind a different look. I would rather get more quality than appearance. This Yamaha shell that encases so much technology is pretty basic at best. Lighten it up a bit. How much can a shell cost. I would rather have the Tyros 5 look, silver gray. When I play at night all I see is a city of small lights. The rest is soooo dark. But once again these are my wishes, and so far I agree with all the feedback.
Quote from: Mike2 on Feb 08, 2022, 03:55 PM
... I also wouldn't mind a different look. I would rather get more quality than appearance. This Yamaha shell that encases so much technology is pretty basic at best. Lighten it up a bit. How much can a shell cost. I would rather have the Tyros 5 look, silver gray. When I play at night all I see is a city of small lights. The rest is soooo dark. But once again these are my wishes, and so far I agree with all the feedback.
Hi Mike,
Please remember that on Genos you can gradually
reduce the brightness of the LED buttons if they are too dazzling when playing in a dark environment (in "Menu > Utility > Touch Screen/Display (Page 1/2) > Brightness > Button Lamps").
I basically set the LED brightness to the lowest level. Then you can definitely see the other panel controls better. :)
Best regards,
Chris
I would like the Genos 2 to have a proper digital interface so it can connect direct to the PC and a DAW with , maybe 4 or 8 audio input and outputs.
would make a great controller and awesome sound machine, with all the sliders mapped to the DAW etc...
john
Here's my list wish:
Definitely ditch the existing outer case. It shows every bit if dust, is not robust, and is not the least bit durable. For such a high end keyboard, Yamaha pooped the bed on the case design. I honestly think Casio makes a better case.
The style creator is still clunky. It needs refinement.
Software that communicates perfectly with any DAW. This would open the creative doors for a lot of us, especially for style creation and editing.
Smooth out the OS functions. Working with the basic functions is like watching a pig on stilts. Use more conventional navigation schemes and functions that match our existing PC and Mac schemata.
The Voice EQ section is antiquated with its Low and High settings. There are so many ways we could clean up some of the solo voices with sweepable mids and perhaps multiband EQ, and not just the global one.
Make the Home screen configurable. For me, 80% of the information on the Home screen is just in the way. I need primary functions all in one place.
Yamaha has done a stellar job in creating such a professional sounding keyboard in the Genos. However, they are still so resistant to providing professional level tools. The marketing people still think we all sit in our living rooms and play alone or perhaps for a few friends and loved ones. That's fine. I agree but if you're going to produce a keyboard that is suitable for the big stage, then make sure it has the required tools to let it be rated as a pro-level instrument. I honestly believe the marketing guys are stifling any of the aforementioned tools in fear of sabotaging sales of the Montage series. That makes no sense at all. The Montage and Genos are worlds apart in most ways.
Edit
I used an external editor for creating an unordered list for this topic because the forum's list creator is so clunky. The HTML editor in this forum's software couldn't read the universally accepted HTML code. Sorry for the little squares :o.
Lee, I agree with you. You articulated your point very well. The shell is a mess and many of the things you mentioned as well.
Being French, my English explanations takes the long route. You are right on the money. Thanks..
The thing is -- Is a new Genos in design yet!!????
It is weird that we have not heard a little whisper.
All the Best
John
@John - I doubt Yamaha is planning anything new soon. These are wish lists to break the monotony while we wait for the news ... ;D
This is my 20-point list, and the video shows each one in more detail. (English subtitle)
01. Mixer controls for Multi Pad
02. View Content of Registration
03. Numeric selection for Playlists
04. Style Creator - Realistic listening
05. Style Creator - Chord switching
06. Style Creator - Different measures
07. Software for creating Styles
08. Bug with insert effect on VH2
09. Drum Edit on the Song Edit
10. Scale with Note Shift - TERCA
11. Enable Midi control for Transpose
12. Implementation of MIDI 2.0.0
13. YEM - backup with one click
14. YEM - creating audio loop
15. YEM - creating MV and S.Art voices
16. External monitor without converter
17. Lift screen with contrast adjustment
18. Better quality top panel
19. Unison&Accent and Smart Chord
20. Audio interface
https://youtu.be/hAWWso-kwC4 (https://youtu.be/hAWWso-kwC4)
There's only two things I want in a new keyboard:
1. Seamless sound switching (getting rid of the annoying clash when switching DSP voices)
2. Registration group memory (after pressing the Memory button, the boxes checked should be the ones memorized in the loaded registration)
The rest is all gravy, or features I wouldn't likely use.
Cheers,
Fred
Does anyone know why most all keyboards are black and similar in that color? Like why? There was an example on here for the Genos, with woodgrain and added feature looks, but I can't remember. But it was a nice design for the future. Even your old style organs, yes mostly wood, but a warm feeling to sit down to and play. I understand the sound and technology come in first, but I can't see the expense with today's artificial woodgrains and the like, that they can't come up with something better.
Hi, for me instead of "External monitor without converter", i would prefer an application to control the genos or the Sx900 with an Ipad; we'll have a better and bigger touch screen; All the best Patrick :)
Hi Patrick,
That's right, the emphasis is on Android and iPad apps and connecting via wireless or bluetooth. The converter now needed for an external display is totally nonsense.
[attachment deleted by admin]
And ... rhe possibility to setup your own "Homescreen' (like on the Technics Kn7000) with that ergonomic Tilt-screen/display ... yeah
Yes that would be an improvement. I owned the Technics KN-7000 for 6 years.
Tilting the screen helps in many ways. Once again...this is a wish list. I enjoy the feedback so far.
I think it's great to think ahead, and even hope for something better. Without hope life stops to have meaning.
Keep it coming...
Is there any way to get all these ideas to somebody at Yamaha who actually listens?
Hi all,
I sure end up scratching my head about Yamaha's choices with their instruments. I'm not in the market for a Genos-class instrument, but I have been studying a bit looking for an eventual upgrade for my S950. I was frustrated enough at some of Yamaha's decisions that I went back to looking at Korg's arranger offerings. The PA-1000 appears pretty nice, but it lacks sub/aux outs, which would also nix it for me for my next board. Korg can improve the software all they want, but that won't add jacks to the back panel. :)
Plus, simple omissions like the absence of a USB audio interface in the SX900 and even Genos are just mind-boggling. Or the inability to improve the sustain of the piano sound with the envelope controls - though I've not tried that on an SX900 yet. It's like someone at Yamaha is reminding their designers, "Don't make this one too good, or we'll never sell the next one". To me that sounds more like an innovation death knell than anything else.
As a songwriter, I really like arranger boards, to try out ideas; I like the flexibility of having the style-driven accompaniment available for certain uses; and the onboard speakers are great for portability. If it weren't for those things, I'd probably be much happier with a MODX or whatnot instead since I also tend to be fairly technical. But the really odd omissions from the arrangers just puzzle me. Or, perhaps I'm the one who's the oddball. ;)
I'm hoping that a market disruption will come along soon, maybe from Medeli or whatnot, to force a burst of innovation - and customer awareness - from Yamaha to justify their market position.
And - I'd like to see how they are in compliance with the GPL software license on the Genos and SX boards. But I haven't found evidence of that yet.
- Greg
To Greg's point...
I think so much of what goes into our keyboards is dictated by the marketing people. That's fine so long as they make decisions based on customers' needs, requests, and musical necessities as requested by actual players with fistfuls of money. They can't make decisions based on previous sales figures, charts, and projections by those with business degrees. How many marketing people at Yamaha are actual musicians? I'd wager darn few. Creating and selling these keyboards is not just a business and numbers game. And to be fair, I think Yamaha has listened to our requests in the past but the only reason our requests made it to our finger tips was because the marketing people stayed the heck out of the way.
Yamaha has NEVER been in the business of making musical instruments. Make no mistake about that. They were always in the business of making money. So, marketing people will very often get in the way of the design features that the real experts (us) need and want. They constantly look at where the balance point resides - with the customers' wants and the company's bottom line.
One item I think Yamaha must take a hard look at is their price point. The Genos is currently selling in Canada for $6,500 without the speakers! There are likely better deals but they're few and far between. I know it costs a bundle to release a new product in any business but with successive models, I would hope the price point would come down because a lot of the heavy lifting has been done.
Personally, I don't see why Genos II couldn't be sold at a price point of around $4,500. Let's face it. There is no REAL money in music unless you strike it big in the industry. Even then, those jobs come and go in a heartbeat and are reserved for the elite players. The market for this product is largely the hobbyist from the Baby Boom generation - the wealthiest generation in the planet's history. The subsequent generations have lots of money but the difference is, they have credit, whereas we have wealth. Big difference!
Yamaha must keep that in mind and not price themselves off the face of the earth.
Quote from: GregB on Feb 10, 2022, 12:19 AM
... Plus, simple omissions like the absence of a USB audio interface in the SX900 and even Genos are just mind-boggling. Or the inability to improve the sustain of the piano sound with the envelope controls - though I've not tried that on an SX900 yet. ...
Hi Greg,
When you say "improve the sustain of the piano sound" do you mean changing the sound so that the sound decays to silence more slowly after the key is released?
You can easily do this on any Yamaha arranger model by slightly increasing the "Release" value (= Release Time) in the EG (Envelope Generator). See also the attached picture.
You can either save the changed voice in Voice Edit / Voice Set as a User Voice, or you can memorize it directly in Registrations.
Best regards,
Chris
[attachment deleted by admin]
Hi
The biggest improvement for mewould be an easy style making program and editing from Yamaha.
A massive memory for samples.
It would be nice to load banks of sounds and styles in rather than Yem and individually as well.
I find everything else ok :)
All the best
John :)
Ps Definitely a better build and no button fading
I would love there is no awful sound hiccups at a registration number/part switch, when sounds and DSP effects are completely different between registration numbers/parts.
It's often possible to minimize sound impact by carefully choosing the parts, the sounds, and the DSP effects on the 2 registration numbers/parts. But it's not always possible to do so.
For me, that makes the Genos is always not a "professional" tool.
I would like to have a new generation of voices (with round-robin and some random effects) closer to the quality of Virtual Instruments banks
QuoteI would love there is no awful sound hiccups at a registration number/part switch, when sounds and DSP effects are completely different between registration numbers/parts.
Didn't Yamaha solve that problem on the earlier keyboards like the Tyros? If they did, why has it lingered or resurfaced on their top arranger? It is a pain in the backside for sure. You can almost blow speakers with some of the audio artifacts created by switching too soon!!
Agreed, John. There needs to be a better build quality. I have no idea why Yamaha cheaped out on this. Oh wait - yes I do. It's called "profit."
Hi everybody,
My suggestions Genos 2.
Operations
• 12" tiltable High Definition screen
• More onboard memory
Multi Pads
• 6 Multi Pads
• Each pad to have on/off "one press" capability (rather than two presses or work arounds)
New Functions
• Ability to convert midi files to styles
Construction
• New sleek black metallic look.
• Non fade operating buttons.
• Do not discolor the area around the buttons
Output
• external screen display - JPG, PDF, BMP - Ex .: printed sheet music.
• Rotate an external screen image 90 degrees
Midi player
• double sequencer
Drum set
• multiple REVO drums - e.g., Standard, Dance, Folk, Live,
• Audio Drums and audio sounds. PL .: Sample Creator
Slide potentiometers
• self-adjusting motor knobs
Thanks
Quote from: overover on Feb 10, 2022, 09:14 AMWhen you say "improve the sustain of the piano sound" do you mean changing the sound so that the sound decays to silence more slowly after the key is released?
You can easily do this on any Yamaha arranger model by slightly increasing the "Release" value (= Release Time) in the EG (Envelope Generator). See also the attached picture.
You can either save the changed voice in Voice Edit / Voice Set as a User Voice, or you can memorize it directly in Registrations.
What I'm referring to is how well the sound sustains while the key is still pressed - the Decay value. That EG setting works for a lot of voices, but not for some, including the concert grand piano voice. The decay happens a bit too quickly on my S950, which makes some playing styles feel very "empty" in comparison to playing on a real piano, and the EG settings don't seem to change it. As I mentioned, I haven't tried this on a newer board yet.
My work-around, which I use for other reasons too, is to underlay the piano voice with a SmoothTines voice that has been darkened using EQ and touch sensitivity shifted so it's not as strong compared to the main voice at higher velocities.
- Greg
Quote from: Lee Batchelor on Feb 10, 2022, 01:37 PM
Didn't Yamaha solve that problem on the earlier keyboards like the Tyros? If they did, why has it lingered or resurfaced on their top arranger? It is a pain in the backside for sure. You can almost blow speakers with some of the audio artifacts created by switching too soon!!
No. The problem has existed on every keyboard that supports DSPs.
Cheers,
Fred
Quote from: Fred Smith on Feb 10, 2022, 07:56 PM
No. The problem has existed on every keyboard that supports DSPs.
Cheers,
Fred
Not sure, but I think Korg resolved this by doubling resources (polyphony, dsp, ...). I don't remember the model. There were video showing smooth transition.
Quote from: Fred Smith on Feb 10, 2022, 07:56 PM
No. The problem has existed on every keyboard that supports DSPs.
Cheers,
Fred
Funny. I never noticed that on my T5. Perhaps I didn't use as many Reg transitions back then as I do now. Fred, the fix at the moment is to make sure you take your hands off all keys before punching down the next Reg button? Thanks.
Quote from: Lee Batchelor on Feb 11, 2022, 07:58 AM
Funny. I never noticed that on my T5. Perhaps I didn't use as many Reg transitions back then as I do now. Fred, the fix at the moment is to make sure you take your hands off all keys before punching down the next Reg button? Thanks.
It was there on the T5, Lee. I'm aware of the fix.
Cheers,
Fred
I think of useful sustain on piano more as how fast the sound falls off when using the sustain pedal and find that it is generally not great on all digital pianos, not just the arranger.
Maybe the sustain on the Genos could be improved but regardless of cost, I have never found a digital yet that has great sustain compared to a decent real piano. But it also varies a lot between 'real' pianos. So my CVP seems better than my old PSR but not as good as my real Yamaha Grand, which in turn is not nearly as good as my Shigeru Grand.
On an arranger I assume it also is affected by polyphony. 128 polyphony might seem a lot, but if the sound is stereo that effectively halves, then take into account all the accompaniment notes and you might start getting drop out if you use the sustain pedal while playing especially if you sustain big multi note chords eg playing full keyboard piano over a style.
Mike
Quote from: mikf on Feb 11, 2022, 09:39 AM
... On an arranger I assume it also is affected by polyphony. 128 polyphony might seem a lot, but if the sound is stereo that effectively halves, then take into account all the accompaniment notes and you might start getting drop out if you use the sustain pedal while playing especially if you sustain big multi note chords eg playing full keyboard piano over a style. ...
A small note on this: For models that are based on the current Yamaha SWP70 tone generator chip (e.g. Genos, PSR-S970/770/975/775, PSR-SX models, PSR-A5000, CVP-809, DGX-670) the specified polyphony applies to both mono and
stereo voices (i.e. it is
not halved for stereo voices).
Best regards,
Chris
Quote from: Fred Smith on Feb 11, 2022, 08:26 AM
It was there on the T5, Lee. I'm aware of the fix.
Cheers,
Fred
Not sure it's exactly the same situation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXaZRvlRIHI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZjiky2DGWM
It was absolutely there on the T5. In fact, at least going back as far as the T1/CVP309, which is the first generation I started really making a lot of Registrations for.
*Ironically* it wasn't an issue going even further back (before they used samples and dsps. When the sounds were nearly all synthesized, there was no cutoff sound during patch changes). As many on here have pointed out, it's due to changes in DSPs (esp output levels which can vary wildly), relative sample playback volumes (they differ for each voice), and various other factors like the inherent decay/sustain of the sample.
Can you work around it? Yes, but it requires making and paging through twice as many program changes; you *can* minimize it by volume leveling between registrations and making sure the DSP's stay the same or are swapped out from right1 to right 2 (as Capser shows in his vids) but you have to mentally remember to do that while making the registration; it's bit more work to do it after you've already created it. I usually don't bother, unless there's a really noticeable 'click' between them while I'm making the reg, *then* I'll make an in-between.
for the Kronos video (2nd one) they did the same thing as Roland did: double the number of DSP's as sound channels, so that you can keep the old sound channel active with a sustained old sound, and assign the new DSP to the 2nd sound. But wait, wouldn't *that* be defeated if you were to page sounds very quickly? (on a couple of my demos, I switch back and forth 4 times in less than a single bar). Yes, it would be. I forgot which one, but I tried "patch remain" on a workstation and it actually prevented you from switching too quickly.
Mark
I love my Genos, and believe it is the best arranger currently available on the market.
Nevertheless I miss some important features of my previous keyboards.
I know that somebody doesn't like comparison with other brands. But comparison is a normal factor to improve a product in modern market (cars, smartphones, computers, ecc.). Just think about the Apple Macbook keyboard, that became a kind of benchmark and has been imitated by mostly all brands.
So said, I had various Korg flagships, and I could mention many features that are missing in Genos.
But here i like to concentrate on a few STYLE EDITING easy features, that help to save time and encourage creativity. I would love to see these features on Genos, as I experienced for years how significant they are (I will use Genos terminology for better understanding):
1. In PLAY mode, you can access a window ("Drum mapping") where, for each single variation, you may instantly change the basic drum sounds (as kick and snare) and then save in the style, without even entering the Style Edit mode. One may select from 7 levels of drum accompaniment (from softest to richest), and you may also select the kick and snare sound, from many.
2. In PLAY mode, you can access a window ("Mixer Tuning") where foe each track (Chords, Pad, Phrase, ecc.) you may change the octave (-3 +3), then save in the style, without even entering the Style Edit mode. This is specifically convenient for the Pad track, but also for Guitars and Pianos tracks.
3. In Style EDIT mode you may COPY/erase not only single parts of a style (as it is in Genos Assembly function), but also full variations (all tracks together), or else a single track in all variations. This can be done within the same style or from another style, at your choice.
4. In Style EDIT mode, you may modify (both in real time or step by step) not just the Drum and Percussion tracks, but any other track (Bass, Chords, Pad, Phrase, ecc.), without having to start from scratch (as it is in Genos, where you waste the factory programmed accompaniment of that track that you would partially modify).
These few features increase enormously the style editing productivity and time, with obvious consequences on your creativity. I KNOW that there are computer software to do it. But any feature/function allocated in the keyboard makes things much easier and fast.
Ciao,
Angelo
On my wishlist is drawbar or 'gammond' organ improvements - perhaps integrating their own YC-61 (organ keyboard) tech into the Genos 2?
-Jim
Agreed, Jim!! I know an arranger can't be all things to all people but the organs REALLY need work.
Interestingly, I was reading a thread about arrangers a few days back and the guy mentioned how difficult is is now to purchase the Korg PA4X, and he mentioned that Thomann no longer have the product for sale. He was speculating that a new Korg arranger announcement was imminent. If that is the case, I should think that Yamaha will be looking extremely closely on what is revealed (assuming the do not know it already lol) and how much the new Korg arranger will impact their sales.
I would assume that Yamaha have several prototype arrangers in development at the moment with variation on hardware specs but still with (I so so SO hope not) the same old clunky operating system and will fine tune the final specs based on what Korg announces and how it gets received
I'm not waiting for Genos 2, because Genos is everything I need and more. There's still a lot I haven't explored on this amazing keyboard, sounds, features, styles. As long as there are occasional firmware updates to fix any issues spotted, and maybe a few nice little features added here and there, I'm going to be very happy for a very long time. To be honest I cannot imagine what else Yamaha could add that couldn't be done through software and new voice updates. Genos was a BIG investment for me, so I'm keen to get plenty of use from it. I know sometimes it's easy to get 'bored' with a product and then just lust for the next, but Genos provides impeccible sound quality, a beautiful action 76 note keyboard, aftertouch, a huge touchscreen, physical controls, sub display, plenty of storage, lots of USB ports, WiFi, fast CPUs... what more could I ask for.
Yes, I agree with everything you said about the Genos. But being realistic like I have been ever since my first Keyboard, I have owned the Technics 600 the 800, 1000, 1200, 2000, 2600, 3000, the 5000, and the KN-7000. And each one was a step up, but nothing like The Genos. But if I can get a great trade in, and see exactly what the new Genos or whatever it's called has to offer, I think my lust for another new keyboard may takeover.
Quote from: Mike2 on Feb 22, 2022, 01:24 PM
Yes, I agree with everything you said about the Genos. But being realistic like I have been ever since my first Keyboard, I have owned the Technics 600 the 800, 1000, 1200, 2000, 2600, 3000, the 5000, and the KN-7000. And each one was a step up, but nothing like The Genos. But if I can get a great trade in, and see exactly what the new Genos or whatever it's called has to offer, I think my lust for another new keyboard may takeover.
i totaly agree here Genos is the best :)
I certainly agree that the Genos is a stellar product. Its operating system is terrible though.
Sorry folks but virtually the whole world runs on a Windows or Mac platform. Our computer operations are rooted in one of these technologies. The Genos OS "sort of" works like the two big OSs but it also has so many annoying quirks.
I'm still annoyed that my System settings were completely destroyed after the step up from the factory default to Version 2.02 or whatever the number is. Any update I've had installed on virtually any OS or program has left all my System settings alone. I never had to jump through all the ridiculous hoops that Yamaha makes you go through. Back up this, backup that, then reload this, reload that....arg!!!!!!
Dear Lee,
If you think the Genos operating system is terrible then you probably can't work with a "Windows" either! Making a musical instrument such as a keyboard or organ work is looking for trouble! Look at Wersi, first the OAS system with Win XP and now OAX with Win 10 which crashes almost regularly just disastrous!!! What you are forgetting is that the hardware of a PC system evolves so quickly that if a component breaks down everything has to be replaced. For example: Motherboard (chipset) must always be compatible with CPU & RAM.
I have been teaching Tyros & Genos keyboards for years now. My conclusion after a few years there are very few people who really know their keyboard. Now with Genos it has already improved a lot!! Your problems you are citing are more than likely your own fault.
Genos is still the best arranger keyboard right now. I threw out my Korg PA4x, that operating system is really a mess!!
PS: No I'm not waiting for a Genos 2!!!
Hi musicman01,
First off, you have no idea what my Windows capabilities are. I'm an advanced level user. I routinely edit the Registry, manipulate system files and templates, set security parameters, purge drives of garbage files, backup and restore, and many more functions.
When using Windows or the Genos, one only needs a very basic knowledge of file manipulation. Windows file manipulations are straight forward. Not so with the Genos. They're awkward. Yamaha uses unconventional terms like "Copy here" or "Move here" instead of "Paste" or "Move." There are several extra steps in file manipulation that don't need to be there. When you delete a Registration in the back end of the list, you are taken to the front of the list starting at the letter A all over again. Then you have to navigate to the back again through their terrible paging system. Why they did away with the vertical list system is beyond me. The Playlist tool is not the same. You can have two Registrations with the exact same name. Style assembly is counter intuitive. Updates are very convoluted. Users must basically do them manually instead of just agreeing to have them installed. I won't even mention the very confusing YEM. MIDI implementation to any DAW is full of trap doors. You spend more time being an IT geek than a musician.
Comparisons to other musical instrument operating systems are meaningless. Yamaha creates the best instruments for the better part, but they need to revisit their file system and make it more conventional so that it matches the majority of peoples' schemata. I use Cubase, which is owned by Yamaha. It works smoothly on Windows or Mac, and employs all the conventional actions and file system functions. It doesn't have the variations from conventional OS functions that the Genos has. So, Yamaha can do it if they so desire.
Yamaha would be well served to do some OS usability studies of Genos 2 before releasing it. The trouble with that idea is, it costs money.
I am an amateur enjoying the Genos a lot.
Yet I have 3 wishes for a next Genos model:
- that the fade button can be stored in a registration (to allow a fade-out without taking your hands off the keys but just use a footpedal)
- that there is a function to gradually increase (or decrease) the tempo to a predefined speed, also storable in a registration
- registrations now link voices and styles through a defined path. If you move the location of the voice or the style to another folder, then the registration can't find them anymore and therefore does not work. There are database systems available that keep the registration paths working, even if you move the voices or style around. It would require a so called content management system instead of the current simple file system. It would make our lives less risky when storing or reorganising voices and styles.
Regards,
Tonny
Excellent points, Tonny.
It seems a lot of suggestions coming forward are designed to make life easier for the stage performers. Yamaha has produced a stellar keyboard in the Genos but still drag their feet when it comes to looking at this marvel as a pro level tool. I wonder if they have any stats about the market distribution of home players vs. stage players. I'd love to know the split.
Quote from: Tonny on Mar 20, 2022, 10:19 AM
I am an amateur enjoying the Genos a lot.
Yet I have 3 wishes for a next Genos model:
- that the fade button can be stored in a registration (to allow a fade-out without taking your hands off the keys but just use a footpedal)
- that there is a function to gradually increase (or decrease) the tempo to a predefined speed, also storable in a registration
- registrations now link voices and styles through a defined path. If you move the location of the voice or the style to another folder, then the registration can't find them anymore and therefore does not work. There are database systems available that keep the registration paths working, even if you move the voices or style around. It would require a so called content management system instead of the current simple file system. It would make our lives less risky when storing or reorganising voices and styles.
1. With the current Genos, you can assign the Fade function to a pedal, and store this assignment in a registration if desired.
2. While accel/ritard would be nice, it's not at the top of my list. When I try to mimic a song, I find that that almost all changes in tempo are discrete. So I simply create enough registrations with the appropriate tempo. Given this feature has been requested for a LONG time, and not been provided, it's probably best to use multiple registrations to achieve what you want.
3. I fear that any attempt to do what you're asking (a database) will result in more confusion to users. I would agree that a checkbox for "Include Path?" would be helpful, and easy to implement. This would allow us to store only the file name, and mean that registrations would still work when a folder is moved or renamed. Current Yamaha keyboards support path-less file names, but they're hard to maintain. Until then, the best advice is: for files that your registrations reference, don't move them around.
Cheers,
Fred
Well Lee,
I like many others very quickly got used to the new operating system and accepted that this is not a computer but a keyboard and as such will be different. It works as it should and I don't have any problems doing things I want and using the YEM to add extra content. Very happy with mine.
That's good to know, Eileen. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the older arrangers were musical instruments with a wee bit of computer control. Today's arrangers are computers with musical sounds. Big difference. I suppose if I spent several hours per day for weeks on end, I may get fast at using the Genos OS. I neither have the time nor the desire. That kind of activity doesn't make me a good player. Practicing does!
They still need to address the needs of the pro players as to how the Genos can become more of a stage tool. It's not too bad now, but it needs a lot of work. Problem is, no one at Yamaha cares what us Genos stage players want. There's probably not enough of us for them to care. The home players generally have all kinds of time to monkey around with a clunky OS?
Besides, the Yamaha developers are too busy knocking together the next Montage. Maybe some day... ::).
Before getting too disparaging about making money versus addressing needs, it's important to recognize that making money is what makes it all possible. Yamaha can't exist unless they make money, and certainly would not design the next models of arrangers if arrangers are not financially viable.
While it may be true that the overwhelming number of users of arrangers are home players, without them there might be no arranger for the stage player. And if there was, its unlikely to be the advanced instrument it is today, because it's the home player that is the cash cow which drives the overall market success of these instruments, and funds the development.
I am sure that Yamaha both understands the needs of the stage player, because they have pro players on the development team, and is well capable of changing the operating system. But why should they ... the next nearest competitor is Korg and many would say their OS is less friendly than Yamaha. And a lot of buyer loyalty might come from familiarity with the existing OS.
Mike
Nothing new there Mike. I'm well aware that Yamaha is NOT in the business of making musical instruments. They ARE in the business of making money. Musical instruments are simply the means by which that happens. Granted, they must cater to the majority - those who really pay the bills - the home players. However, here's a quote directly from the Yamaha website > Genos page.
"Welcome to the new world of Digital Workstations. Genos is the new benchmark in Digital Workstation sound, design and user experience. Whether you are in a recording studio or on stage, Genos will inspire your musical creation and performance."
It's funny how they only mention the non-home players in this catch line and yet the home players are the largest market? Something is amiss here :). Their catch phrase is touting the Genos as a pro level machine. Therefore, they need to listen to the pro level players.
Trust me, I'm not interested in starting a "Genos bashing" thread. It's by far, still the best keyboard I've owned. Yamaha just needs to listen to the stage players. If they can make things easier for us for live performances through a more intuitive OS, think how that would benefit the home players. It's a win-win.
Lee, I truly believe you have that the wrong way round. If you asked anyone in Yamaha what they do they would say that they are in the business of making great musical instruments. But they would also understand that if they don't make money they would not be able to do that. Money is the enabler, not the core mission.
Mike
Lee,
I agree with you about the awkward user interface for the file system.
One problem is that Cubase is made by Steinberg, a company that Yamaha bought. The user interface knowledge at Steinberg is apparently siloed there. Entirely different people with a different culture are doing the user interface for the Genos.
I don't know of one business whose core mission is not to make money first, Mike. Their products are a means to an end. I was in a very successful business for 25 years and sold that business for decent coin. The primary goal was to make money. The business model itself was the means not the first consideration.
I defy you to tell me that Yamaha would openly say that they are in the business if making instruments "for the love of it." No sir. They're in it for the money. They may enjoy it, which is a good thing, along with the joy it brings millions of people but it is not their primary focus. If they didn't make money, they would stop making instruments and focus on their motor division instead. Money is their core motivator. They just happen to be great at making instruments.
Are we not debating the chicken and the egg story ;D ;D ;D!?
Lee, I think we just have to agree to disagree.
I worked at very senior level for multinational corporations, and never came across any ethical company who felt their core mission was to make money. They all saw being financially successful as the result of executing their mission well, not the core mission.
Here is what Yamaha actually say.
https://www.yamaha.com/en/about/philosophy/
Mike
Fine, have it your way Mike. I refuse to bandy this back and forth anymore.
I have to agree Mike,
We must remember that most of the team at Yamaha love music and want to bring us a product that will inspire us to play. They are always striving to give us more authentic voicing and styles. I have done many gigs in the past and with a little time setting up things up was able to play non stop through my sets and take requests and be able to bring my settings for certain songs up very quickly.
Now at 86 I am just enjoying sitting at home playing what I want when I want.
I don't recall seeing this style site before:
https://www.carillonstudios.com/yamaha/
They have hundreds of Yamaha styles to purchase if you are wanting some new styles.
If think you can create some really nice sounding style yourself with your own keyboard's with just a bit of practice time spent with the style creator program.
Regards
Drake
Oh Oh, Drake, this brings back memories... I had several floppies with Carillon styles back in the days of the Technics KN7000 and earlier. ;D
These styles were not always the best in the past.
Quote from: EileenL on Mar 21, 2022, 10:57 AM
These styles were not always the best in the past.
I wasn't either ;D
A faster processor would be nice, I find that searching and finding styles etc just hangs up. Could just be the amount I have on USB but It struggles to find somtimes and have to restart/reboot the keyboard as it freezes up on searching.
I dont think the processor speed ot the usb would be the problem. You might try to divide up the styles into multiple folders if you have too many in a single directory.
Mike
Quote from: jimlaing on Feb 16, 2022, 01:07 AM
On my wishlist is drawbar or 'gammond' organ improvements - perhaps integrating their own YC-61 (organ keyboard) tech into the Genos 2?
-Jim
yes jim i would agree with that one
Hello everyone, I think this topic is really relevant to what I've done today, so hopefully, you'll find my post interesting
You've discussed the Genos OS and in particular the filesystem
I've made a video that describes 10 items around the filesystem that can be improved in future generations of Yamaha Keyboards
The video is available here (I apologize in advance, English is not my native language, but I've tried my best :) )
https://youtu.be/0z-FlcjOYx0 (https://youtu.be/0z-FlcjOYx0)
Here is a textual summary of the suggested items:
- Favorites function - introduce folders or any other hierarchical structure to work on different projects simultaneously
- Favorites function - Allow storing favorites from Factory(Preset) area, User Memory, Expansion Memory, USB Memory Stick
- Search - Allow Search in folders, in locations (search for style in USB flash drive)
- Search - Allow searching by criteria. For example, for styles: search not only by name but also by genre, tempo range, time signature, creation time, etc.
- Search - Allow explicit cache (index) invalidation of the USB content so that the data won't be invalidated
- Usability - Left Panel for factory sounds/style is categorized by genre, but it doesn't work like this user memory/expansion memory - make it the same, maybe by introducing additional optional label in the style file and adding a way to set such a label
- Usability - Make access to all the icons
- Automatically turn off Caps lock after the first entered symbol - all the tablets and phones do those these days.
- Files Management - introduce a clipboard-like way of file manipulation, like copy/paste - why not stick to the conventions known to everyone
- Overall File System Access - Allow access to the file system of the synthesizer from the computer (PC/Mac) without the need to enter the mass storage mode and reboot the synthesizer.
Thanks and Regards,
Mark
I especially like #8. This has been an aggravation for me with every Yamaha keyboard I have owned. No other screen-based keyboard works this way. For that matter, no other mechanical keyboard works this way either.
If I may add, Mark - regarding the typing area. Put the apostrophe on the main page instead of buried among the symbols >:(!!!!!! There are tons of songs that require an apostrophe. I can't think of any right now ;D.
And yes, make the Genos appear as a full fledged device on a PC or Mac. It would be so nice to edit registrations on a computer and I mean everything to do with the registration. Murray Best created a program, which I believe took him years and with help from some other coding gurus. He did a great job but he shouldn't have had to.
Yamaha should look at the Mac and PC operating systems and ask Genos users what's needed. There are too many unconventional things in the current OS and many things just missing. I'm glad lots of people say the system works perfectly for them. It doesn't for lots of other folks.
I do think we tend to forget that a keyboard is not a computer and is not supposed to be. It may Have similar ways of doing things but is still a musical instrument. I found using the keyboard a little strange at first but after getting used to it don't give it a second thought now. It is much better than the old way we had to name things.
As for Icons do we really need hundreds of them. The ones we have do the job nicely. Doesn't make you play any better. If you need to access Pack voices quickly then save your favourites to registrations or OTS settings on a style. Lots of packs have registrations on them anyway.
Accessing keyboard user on computer only takes a few minutes so I don't see this as being a problem. Surely we have to expect to spend some time on the keyboard setting it as we want it.
I agree with you, Eileen. You can do virtually everything you want right on the Genos. However, for the advanced functions, it would be much easier if the Genos connection to a PC was more complete.
Agreed, the Genos is not a computer in the strictest definition but if you take away "everything that is a computer" inside the Genos, you have no functionality. It is driven by computer technology. That technology should be as smooth as possible for advanced level functions. Currently, there is a lot of room for improvement.
If Yamaha doesn't want to add that functionality to the Genos, that's fine. Just make it so we can connect to a PC and work "outside the box." At the moment, that functionality is very limited without third party help, which is often incomplete because those developers have no access to critical code and systems hidden by Yamaha - which I agree with. It's their product! They must protect their design. Meanwhile, interfacing to a PC could be done by Yamaha, but they are the ones who would need to do it. I'd pay extra for that software. It would another revenue stream for them.
I'm very glad that this topic has been replied by so many. If Yamaha does read these, and adds a few of these wishes, then the next Genos 2 should be something else. I agree with Lee. The whole inside of the Genos, is all computer, chips and much more. Bring it On!!
If all these whishes would be accepted and implemented by Yamaha, then it's modelname can not be a "Genos" or a " Sx". We may expect a total redefined and redesigned supernew keyboard, as Yamaha's Genos successor after all these years. If it is called a Genos2, then it is only renewed with 'minor' changes to continue the Genos success. ... so if it is to be a " Genos 2" I will be disappointed. ;-))
There is no successor to except this year :'(
S,