Re: Search behavior very strange on - SX700 - Part 2 - Folder Size-It's a Wrap

[dlepera]

Hello Everyone.

  I have decided to open a separate post for the Search Behavior of the SX series my SX700 in particular.

The original post is getting too long and while it carries lots of information and benefits I don't want things to get too clouded that it losses it's true value. I will put a link in that post to this post for anyone to connect the two and for Yamaha to follow through on the issue initially noted with my resolution.

  As you all know there are lots of comments and recommendations on USB folder and file sizes, for me soo much so that I only know that Registrations should not have a max of 255 entries per folder. Don't know about the others(styles, voices, midi, pads, songs, etc)  and it seems to me that many of you are so cautious about putting too many folders and files, in particular styles on a USB, that you may be just limiting yourselves perhaps unecessarily. 

  I am not making recommendations in this post as the choice is always yours to do file management as you see fit, but I am revealing my discoveries which are starting to add solid foundational knowledge and structure to my file management system as it relates to styles, Regits, voices, etc.

   As you know I kind of have gone against the grain in the way I populate my USBs and many I am sure think that I am looking for trouble, in particular when I say that I have over 25,000 files and growing on one USB.

  Well, after the search issue, I did say that I will continue to do related testing on this function and try to understand if possible how it really works, how to break and fix.

   Testing Discovery for Styles -(for now).

1.  I have gone through many many folders from what I have created and populated. I have also
     gone through the Forum packages which I have purchased and done hundreds of searches
     tapping into everything I have on my USB. Crazy, time consuming yes but very rewarding if you
     read on.

2.  All my searches were successful except for one which flagged a new search error message(at
     least for me). Message " Too Many Files Exist In One Folder To Execute This Operation"

3.  At the time I was searching a style called "wanderer" and the result was 1.5 pages or 15 entries.
     Note that at this time I had all 4 USBs(clones of each other) connected and the internal storage
     was 1007.85MB available. In other words empty.  I   have expansion packs loaded as well.

4. Selected the entries on the list and all worked fine except for the last 4 which failed to open.
      Message: " Too Many Files Exist In One Folder To Execute This Operations

5. The anomaly here is that Wanderer_X9 showed up on the list but when I selected it to be loaded
    the keyboard went into "Loading"  for 3 seconds, then highlighted this selection and paused to
    allow me to issued the "OK" or "Cancel".  I selected the "OK" and keyboard went into "Executing"
    mode for 9 seconds and then issue the error message stated above. 

6. Since the keyboard was/is not smart enough to reveal the path, I put the USB into my PC and
    found the following:

     - I had purchased the #17 package from the forum and created a Yamaha New Style #17 folder
       with everything that I had received.
     - There is a folder called  "KetronX9' in there. I can't remember if maybe I put it there or if it
       came with it (something I will need to look into if I want and find the time)
     - This folder had 3185 entries in it and every time I tried to open the folder or anything in it, the
       error message popped up.

PS: Maybe someone like Joe can just verify/adjust this KetronX9 folder size. This is what I read in the Styles product section today:
                                     **************************************
Henni's Converted Ketron Styles
This section holds a large collection of Henni's Ketron styles converted for use on the Yamaha keyboards. There are three folders included:

Ketron SD1 - 1,446 styles
Ketron XD9 - 3,195 styles    <<<<< files size too big - split into 2 folders >>>>>
Ketron XD - 377 styles

                              *******************************************
7.  Now I decided to zero in on this folder and play with the entries and thought off the bat that
     maybe I can start with a logical number of 1024, 2048 entries per folder.  NOPE!!!!!!!!!! Not that
     logical.

8.  Bottom the max entries for a STYLE search is 2500 entries per folder. This equates to 250 pages
     to be displayed on the keyboard for your search argument.   

9.  Yes I did do the test to add 1 more entry to the count and it did fail.

10. I then cloned one of the USBs and put 199,345 folder and entries on it with no folder exceeding 2500 entries in it and my keyboard is still smiling. Yes execution time is slower but all is working.

   Conclusion: 

  1. I and I say "I" because I choose too, can have as many folders on my USB(s) as long as I DO
      NOT exceed 2500 entries in that folder!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

    I would love to know if this is documented and of course not reading the manual in it's entirety does not help and also if this behavior is the same on the all the Genos?

    Always something interesting. I would like to see if I can find the limits for the other things like voices and pads but don't have that entries to populate a folder.  I will for the heck of it play with my registrations and confirm for me at least the breaking point there.

Question for Yamaha: Why not be consistent with your search logic or at least make your messages more user friendly with a bit more meaningful information?

      This link is the one for the Search behavior very strange on - SX700 -  GOOD NEWs
  https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,69150.msg520674.html#msg520674

                   dom

[dlepera]

Well folks - File Size is now a wrap for me.

  As you may have read, because of my search issue, I decided to learn a little more about the SX and Genos file management behavior.  I articulated the Style function testing and after all this time I have done more testing playing around with the other file types. I now have the following information that I want to share with you. 

                    Conclusion

1. File Size for Styles, Voices, Pads, Playlist and Registration is a max of 2500 entries per folder equating to
    250 pages with 10 entries per page  displayed on the keyboard.

2  Exceed this and you get:  Message: " Too Many Files Exist In One Folder To Execute This Operations" and
   nothing gets listed.

3. This should not cause any keyboard search issues as described in my previous post as the message is only
   informational.

4. I created a folder with 2500 registrations, sampled over 350 random registrations to ensure that they all
    work fine and they sure did.  BTW, this forum has lots of beautify registrations.

5. Created a Playlist and it displayed all 2500 entries numbered on left side of the display with 1/250 - 250/250
    pages on the right.

6. Tried to rename in any folder and all worked and played fine.

7. Thought to try renaming to "._*" and Message:  "A period (".") or a space (" ") is not allowed at the top of
    the file name"

8. Note:  it did rename with a "_" and "-" at the top of the file name and all searched and played with no issues.
 
   I do not have 2500 Audio(MP3 WAV) files nor do I have 2500 MIDI files to test, but let's assume that Yamaha will limit them to 2500 entries as well.

Wrapping this up all I have left to say is that I have confirmed, tested the file limits and search capabilities of the SX700 and any instrument, with the same operating system like the SX900 & Genos should show the same results.

   I do stress that I follow my own file management practices which can be viewed as good or bad, but at least I have now confirmed boundaries and limitations with even a few error messages and their understanding.

  Keep in mind that the "Rules of Thumb" and "Recommendations" made in this forum are GOLDEN. So unless you really know what you are doing, in particular with USBs, HUBs, file management and structure, I really suggest that you do not do what some like me are doing. We all like to horde and enough is never enough when it comes to file types, but there to is good management logic that can be applied and keep us out of unforeseen issues.

   Best Regards.

          dom


   

[Fred Smith]

The limit of files/folder is documented.

It was 250 fir Tyros 1, 500 for T2-5, and 2500 for Genos. You will find hundreds of posts in this forum recommending people limit the number of files in their folders.

Cheers,
Fred

[dlepera]

Fred, Thank you.

  I searched for answers for my SX700 and there was nothing really nicely laid out saying exactly what it is for every file type on my keyboard what are the messages associated with file management and exactly how will the keyboard(s) react if we exceed or even over populate our storage areas/internal or USBs. Yes there are lots of posts on file sizes and a lot of information on limiting them as well.  But nothing with anything that I saw that actually tested, validated those numbers and articulated behavior. Even Yamaha Canada could not give me a comfort level about 1.5 years ago when I asked them.

   I just decided for my sake to find out exactly what the limits are, see how my keyboard would react with both high and low limits and also confirmed that fear I had to exceed 255 registrations in a folder.

   So did my testing, tried to break my search function(I could not this time), generated messages I had never seen before, got a better understanding of those message and how to react to them and now got rid of that registration limit fear. This has opened a big door for me with and given me a very good comfort level of file management behavior on my specific keyboard along with those that have emailed asking about what I have already shared here and giving them a whole new view eliminating their similar fears.

   However to your point of "limiting the number of files in a folder", I think it's time to ask why? At least to satisfy my curiosity since the only thing that I have limited for a few years was the registrations as per the forum recommendations, and never had an issue with anything else until not to long ago when my search function went south and I was actually able to fix and break any time I wanted at will, until I remove those "._E*" Tyros files which until not to long ago I had no reason to tap into them. Once I removed them I am no longer able to break my search functions regardless of how many folders and files I have on my USBs and even when I load up all 4 USBs. Not to say that initially did not encounter my own self inflicted issues until I learned how this keyboard addressed them. Now I actually keep them powered up all the time as I use them as clones when I change and add new things to my folders and do not need to do things on computer like before.  I hope that I am not sounding like a "keyboard rebel"?  It's just that I have paid good money for this thing and I expect it to behave in the manner in which it is programmed. If things should not be done then the software should now allow them to be done. IE: can not put a USB that is not in FATS32 format. This is great, so one knows that boundary and the keyboard enforces it.


    Had a discussion with Yamaha recently on this as well and they have not indicated to me that I should not be doing this.  If the software allows it, then it should work.

   So please understand that I am not trying to go against the grain and best practices of the forum as people are their own judges and you folks seem to know even more than Yamaha. I have great respect, but since I am a touchy feely person, one has to explain logically WHY?  So again can you or anyone please tell me what are the consequences of populating USBs and folders like I am doing if one has a good understanding of file management and how the keyboard behaves.

  With all due respect!       Thanks in advance.        dom

[Fred Smith]

Yamaha keyboards search for a file alphabetically. The more files it has to go through, the longer it takes.

For style files, this can result in the style not starting on time.

The biggest issue for me is loading text files, which is where I have my lyrics. The delay is noticeable in a folder with a lot if files. Playing at home, it's not an issue. But for a gig, it is.

I also find it easier to find files when I have fewer files/folder. I can't imagine going through 250 pages to find the file I want.


Cheers,
Fred

[dlepera]

Hi Fred,

  This makes sense. I now understand why performers limit their folder and files. Since I only play at home for my own enjoyment, the delays for me are insignificant. As for the 250 page search, being more selective does minimize the number of entries/pages so that is not is not necessarily a bad thing either.

   What about having lots of Registrations, say 250 pages worth. Is there good reasoning as well for keeping them down to a minimum of say 255 entries per folder.

  I appreciate your information and can now better understand the recommendations to minimize in some cases.

        Thank You.               dom