Search behavior very strange on - SX700 - GOOD NEWS today!

[Lacko]

Hi dom,

just an idea: If you could get back on the USB stick couple of thousands of styles in the same folder structure like did months before, put that USB stick intg keyboard and delete all those files IN THE KEYBOARD, so that keyboard ,,would know, that he deleted them", maybe also those index files will be deleted from its memory. Who knows, but it may be worth that time and effort.

Lacko

[BogdanH]

hi dom, I have sent you a PM.

Bogdan

[dlepera]

HI Lacko.

   Great idea and good point!. I did that for what was in USER memory before I formatted it but did not think to do that  on the USB. Going to do that. First I will ensure that I have a new clone of the USB stick(PC copy activity) and then since I have used multiple sticks on this keyboard I will delete everything on all 4 of the ones that I have used and get back to you. Will be later today. 

  Bogdan, thanks.

            dom

[dlepera]

Hi everyone.  Lots of reading hear so your choice to read or have musical fun instead. I did say that I would have some information for you today and here it is.

  Ok.   Acting on Lacko's  great suggestion, I managed to set up a number of testing
Scenarios to see how this keyboard software reacts to them and hoping that maybe it could generate some kind of meaning error message which can be helpful in zeroing on perhaps the software logic area of the search instruction(s).

  TEST #1

1.   As you know had restored and customized my keyboard after the  last rest.
2.   Now I deleted everything in my USER area which was quick seconds in fact
3.   Loaded my Live USB1 with all my files and did a "Select All" delete on the keyboard.  Execution
        time was 19 minutes for the delete. BTW did this multiple times and the execution time was
        very consistent. And a power off was performed every time as well. 
4.   Disconnected the USB and connected a small 4gb 2.0 USB formatted on the keyboard of
         course, then same with a 3.0  32gb and a 3.1  64gb USB, all with only three styles, three
        midi,
        three voices, three pads and three registration. Note that each USB had an error check
        performed on them as well as all the USBs used for any of my previous tests. This is a good
        practice to do all the time for any USB to ensure that they are always in good status.
5.   Performed a search and non were retrieved. The old list kept coming up.
6.   Disconnected the USB and got nothing popping up on the screen.
7.   Appears that there is logic which first acknowledges the external device status and then reverts
        to the storage list from the last refresh load.
8.   So, no device loaded, the program does not do a Fetch to the stored list.
9.   I plug the USB back in and is connected as USB1 and the list is populated on the screen again.
10.    Yamaha how much more obvious can it be to find this area of code and work on this
         logic??? 

   TEST #2

The next testing scenario was to Factory Rest. Did it 10 times for the heck of it as  I had nothing better to do right?  Testing out the logic consistency of this Factory Reset.
1.   Powered off the keyboard. Even added a soft reset to the mix. 
2.   Performed the same testing sequence as described in points #4,5,6,9
3.   Results were the same.

Next test was to take the clone of the the USB which had everything deleted in point #3 of my first test, populate it back to what it was by using the keyboard to do the copy from USB1(loaded clone) to USB2 empty formatted one. So using my keyboard to do a PC copy like function I would expect some kind of an error message if there was something wrong with a folder, file or even the USB. This is a data and external integrity check as well. Nope all copied well in 65 minutes of execution. So good there.

1.    Powered off the keyboard
2.   Did a soft reset
3.   Inserted the newly populated USB and connected fine as USB1
4.   Tapped on the screen USB1 so the keyboard would read It and it did as it went through it's
        "checking" process.  All was normal there. 
5.   Did a search for a name and the old list keeps popping up and like before the whole list of 10
        pages of styles in this case along with the max limit message populate my screen.
6.   NOW, I start selecting the styles on the list and while some have redundant entries,  I select
        each one to see if I get the famous message related to fine file name not found, or filename  is
        inappropriate  or the other one  No  USB flash drive is connected.
7.   When I get to the one that does load, I DELETE it to a point that I deleted everything on my
        list, all 100 entries
8.   Entries were in fact deleted from the USB folders but the entry names on the list still remained.
9.   This time if I try to select the name that was deleted it says no USB flash drive  is connected.
        So tells me that the actual search function is still working.  Just using the old list which it
         should not. 
10.    Note that my Registration folders all except one had 10-165 entries. Only one had 284. Style
        folders are the only ones with hundreds of files in folders and those I got from the forum
        populated with many files in folders and folders within folders. .

OBSERVATION:

During my last test, I did note some strange and interesting things.

1.   Those redundant entries are there because them came from a different USB connected to the
         keyboard with the same path name.
2.   One of those in fact was never connected at the same time when I connected multiple USBs, so
        it's not in issue related to multiple USBs at this time from what I can deduce.
3.   When I connected one of the 4 USBs that I have used, and select one of those redundant
        entries that I spoke of previously, as soon as I connected the keyboard registered on
        the list, it actually found the style in my case and brought me to the folder and page containing
        the file and ready to play the style which it did.
4.   Note that the keyboard recognized this USB connection as USB1.
5.   Went through the deletion process again like I did before for everything on all my 4 USBs that
        the keyboard did find and the end result was always the same.
6.   So, no mater what I do that list can not be cleared, the list does have good data that can be
        retrieved and utilized.

Conclusion :

1.   My USBs with my data is good
2.   Don't have anything on there that the keyboard got upset with  as it read, played and even
        moved things around from USER to multiple USB storage
3.   Connected 4 USBs at one time and everything was all usable as normal
4.   Don't  suspect data corruption in the Internal Storage Memory where this list is residing
        because if anything there was corrupted I could not have been able to select and load up the
        styles or Registration
5.   Note that each file type has it's own list so there has to be some partitioning in this memory,
       but somehow the brick wall limit is NOT affecting the VOICE, PAD, MINI or Audio
        regardless of where the files reside, Expansion, User or USB.   Very Very Interesting.
6.   I did have issues before with all my searches and now it's only STYLES and REGITS.  So
        something good has happened so far. Not sure what or why?
7.     Also for those of you that use separate USBs for let's say Styles to keep things to a minimum I
        would be curious to know what your results are if you put a style for example, call it Dom.sty
        on say 2 or 3 of your USBs.  Play it each time. Do a search and see if it works.  Then Power
        off/on the keyboard, however this time ensure that NO USB is connected.  Then go into your
        style function and search for Dom. See how many entries are on your list.  I am assuming that
        the list would contain multiple Dom styles(speculating again). And the only way to play them
        would be to connect the respective USB for each separate Dom entry in your this.  Only for
        SX700. I don't want any other instrument because the SX900 and up although it is said that
        the operating system is the same, to me it's NOT.  SX900 has Chord Looper so obviously the
        software logic can be different.  Maybe the seach could be the same, don't know. This info will
        help level set some things in my mind.  Thanks in advance.

  For those of you who do not understand why some programs can go flaky and why it can be a point of reluctance for that software to be fixed, keep this in mind.

1.   If you write a program from scratch you will then see the whole picture and be able to build and
     repair very easily. Generally the programs are not very big at the time of creation.
2.  Now you want to add some additional controls or functionality to that program and it grows in
     size, like writing a book.
3.  During the evolution of this program you need to engage others to take what is existing and
     add/append some new controls or functionality and this comes in the form of add program logic
     code. 
4.  As the program grows and starts to become a monster size, there are many people/programmers
     all doing their little part to help it evolve while integrating things as seamless as possible. 
5.  While this adds many layers of complexity in reality, each control and functionality can still for
      the most part be identified and isolate. At that point  you just dump that section of the program
     logic using specialized tools(can be proprietary tools-Yamaha internal diagnostic software) and
      put a fix which is generally some program lines of code, and once in place, you have your new
      upgrade version.
6.   For this reason I can't understand why Yamaha knows about this issue and can't just address it. 
      Not expensive as one would think in the scheme of things. I don't think I am in left field on this one.

Not sure what else to test. Been at it all day with many factory resets, and finally got this thing restored to how I want again.

  All I have for you now. Hope that I have not confused anyone as my head is spinning on this subject.

   My last comment is to YAMANA to step up to the plate and review how their software logic does the
"FETCH", "LOAD" and "STORE" of the data in this storage location.   IT'S SIMPLE GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!   

               Dom

[Lacko]

Hi Dom,

congratulations. Very detailed analysis, It is a pity that it didn't help you to solve this problem.
Do you think this problem arises when using styles or other files on USB stick only or is it tied with too many styles in any memory (e.g. also in USER)?

Lacko

[Divemaster]

Hi guys

On Page 107 of the User manual are all the suggested 'rules' pertaining to the connection and disconnection of usb devices.
Now I know we all pop these drives in and out without a thought, and I also know that some of us use short flyleads to connect drives due to both the absolutely stupid location of the sockets and also to cut down on the risk of damaging the instruments socket/s.... But when Yamaha say Don't use Extension cables what are they telling us.
Obviously to use a hub, you'd almost certainly have a cable from usb  port to hub?

I don't know.... It's pretty vague.. But may have some relevance.

Keith

[Dupe]

For what it's worth, regarding short usb adapters! I used one on a laptop used for programming micro controllers, less wear to the laptops usb socket. I had all sorts of issues regarding programming? Strange errors in my code preventing the project to function correctly. It took me hours to sort out, the problem was down to the short usb extension lead, which although seemed to be satisfactory, was confined to the bin. I replaced it with a usb hub. Had no trouble since. Dive Master, you may have a valid point!
Regards Dupe

[Divemaster]

Now That is interesting... Thanks Dupe.

Keith

[stevem]

.... It took me hours to sort out, the problem was down to the short usb extension lead, which although seemed to be satisfactory, was confined to the bin. I replaced it with a usb hub. Had no trouble since....
Regards Dupe

Very interesting thank you. Quick question: powered usb hub or regular through type?

Regards, steve

[dlepera]

Hi.

   All good points on these USBs and extension hubs. Steve you ask about powered or non powered hub. Only one thing to keep in mind and that is, can the device that you are connecting to supply enough power to the connected USB(s). Example can you connect a 1TB WD Passport directly to the keyboard even if you only have one file? I don't think it has enough to spin that drive. I know the example is a bit odd but does the manual say that you can't, does it say that you can't put a 128gb, or 64gb stick. I just read that it has to be a FAT32 device which we can an format on the PC and if the PC can't do it, then you plug it into the keyboard and do the format there. There are devices out there that right off the bat will not support 32gb if you know what I am saying.

   Now if we continue to write this book, let me add some things that went through my mind since my last post.

   I am more than positive that the data is not corrupted as all my files were usable from this populated list. So I have to assume one important thing here. Yamaha wants to sell new and get rid of the old as quickly as possible. In order to do that as stated previously, build in something to help obsolete the keyboards.  They maybe realizing now that this has to be done with the newer stuff. Why because all those S9* and Tyros are not dying. Make us "have" to buy if we really had no intentions or can afford to upgrade to a new model.

  SO, all these conversions(styles, voices, etc) from old to new will require at some point for us to use the search function maybe more than normal. Nice way then to reach the max file limit at some point in the life of the keyboard. Again my view on the limited knowledge of this industry and product. But my limited testing seems favor my thoughts.

  Since there are little complaints at this time and perhaps good sales on the new stuff, this could be why Yamaha may not want to fix this bug. Think of this, why do many of us have old old laptops. Because, they still work and we can keep them working. Is it because the manufactures are backing us up. Don't think so. It's the OEMs that are making lots money by backing us up and providing hardware and resources to keep them working and everyone is happy. Why don't they do this with older Tablets?  There is no demand and they are so tightly knit and on a motherboard that offers no expansions for improvement hence why some smart people can "jailbreak" and still use them past their application and software life cycle. But one thing, tables are more affordable while keyboards not so much.

    In my case if they don't provide me a fix, I have two options, replace the motherboard at 1/2 the cost of the keyboard and in time will have the same issue or buy a "newer" one.  I wouldn't even consider a used one now knowing this problem.

  This is something that people should be considering. Resale when the time is right hoping that this search issue does not become more widely spread and a limiting selling point if the bug is not fixed. This is where Boghan's comment comes into play. If only 50 people complain nothing will get done.

     People just don't want to get rid of the old and they are not breaking down like the manufacture may expect.  But, they go on the other premise that we may keep them and buy new, because we are creatures of nature and like new things. If liking new things was the only reason, then why are previous styles, voices, pads being converted from old to run on the new??? Maybe for all the work put into registrations over time and updating those registration may be a big pain or nightmare I can appreciate that. But can't be the only reason.
 
   In my case I grab what I can find because what I am finding is better than what is on my keyboard and for me it's convenience and appreciation for those great styles that people have put together and are better than what I can ever create myself. If it was not for the the styles on this forum, well my keyboard may not be enjoyed as it is today and there might not be any incentive for me to even play it as much. I upgraded from my PSR EW410 for this sole reason.  This whole search issue may be trivial to many but for me, it is a very important feature of my keyboard.

  I can't read music, in fact a simple thing like the metronome is useless to me. I play songs in their original keys and cords(thanks to utube turials and internet sites) and in their original tempo as well. Yes I create my own off shoots and they are lots of fun sometime even more than the originals.  Hence the reason for so many style files on my USB(s). I have not read any limitations on style files per folder other than Regits which I am cautious with. The styles that I have purchased from this forum are the only ones that I use and have not changed any of their Root and sub-folders so have to assume that putting them all on my USBs is not an issue and has not been an issue until now 3 years later.

   I think that I have said enough on this subject and need to consider pursuing Yamaha and looking for channels to raise awareness if they don't fix the bug.

  I need to reach out to these big Music stores like Sweetwater, Boners, A&C Hamilton,  Epianos,  etc, as they seem to have Yamaha rep contacts judging from their product demonstrations on Utube and maybe they can raise this issue with their reps for traction with Yamaha and help push for a fix.?

    The biggest influence comes from the consumer.  This is why we all can be effective by working gathering in support of a common cause and let Yamaha know our product frustrations.

   I rest my case for now and will give Yamaha a chance to make good on this issue hoping that their response this time is not one saying to take the keyboard to a technician without first fully listening to the customer, gather detailed documentation for the root cause analysis and then escalating the problem to the right area for further investigation. 

                  dom

 
   
   

[Dupe]

@stevem, The one I use is an old Belkin 7 port USB -2 powered type. I only use it with my laptop for programming, and not with my SX900, which has two USB port sockets. Regards Dupe

[Dupe]

I've just noticed dom's last post and to quote him "Yamaha wants to sell new and get rid of the old as quickly as possible. In order to do that as stated previously, build in something to help obsolete the keyboards.  They maybe realizing now that this has to be done with the newer stuff. Why because all those S9* and Tyros are not dying. Make us "have" to buy if we really had no intensions or can afford to upgrade to a new model "
Personally, I know from first hand experience that the used market for keyboards is very active right know, especially with part exchange models offering great opportunities to snap up bargains on older models.
While built in obsolescence has made us aware throughout the electronics industry, especially within the domestic market, I would of thought reputable companies such as Yamaha, would encourage longevity for their products, as learning to play instruments for both the younger and older generations, can only be good. I started off with an old Casio keyboard, then moved onto Yamaha as my playing improved, being pleased with it's performance, I part exchanged to an SX700 and recently to an SX900. My old keyboards have been sold onto new buyers, and so the cycle repeats. It's all good business.
I hope dom manages to resolve his problems with his keyboard, he's certainly had support and suggestive ideas to go on from this forum. Kind  regards Dupe.

[dlepera]

Hi All. 

   Goooooooooooooooooooooooood   Neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeews:!!!

   You will not believe this.   After I posted my "rest my case" I could not get through Yamaha music Canada.
  Decided to call Sweetwater in the USA and spoke with a very lovely individual Rob Heck Sales Engineer. Now he sure knows customer service. Listened, ensured he understood my issue, gave him the details on my post and he has pursued with his Yamaha rep who is making moves for Yamaha Japan to see the design flaw.
 
   Now for the good news.  Anyway went through all my testing notes again and noticed that there was still one thing that I did not consider and took for granted. That was to manipulate the software version it's self. 

   My software version is V1.11 which is current. So on a whim I asked myself what would happen if I back level my version to V1.10 and then upgrade to the current?  Well nice of Yamaha that they only offer the most current V1.11 and this is a good thing.

   So I installed the same version and it overlaid successfully.   

    My Search worked like a charm. 

   So time to break it again to check consistency.  Glutton for punishment right. 

   I loaded a USB with one style folder containing 117,234 style files and 700 registration in one folder and did my search.  Well the style search caused my issue this time and stopped rather quickly during the "checking" process then issued the brick wall message  "number of search results has exceeded the limit and from that point on my search was rendered inoperable with only 10 pages of new search items in my list this
time.   

   Again I installed the same version and it resolved my issue.  So we have a work-around, not a fix. But I am operational now.  You can't image how happy I feel at this moment.

   I want to reach out to all of you who have supported me through out this ordeal and thank you all for your support and understanding.  Am I sounding like a Grammy  Winner?

    How about I say Thank You, Thank You!!   

            dom
 

[Amwilburn]

Excellent! Thanks for the workaround!
Mark

[Divemaster]

Brilliant news Dom.

Really impressed and so glad that your problem is resolved.

Keith

[pjd]

Hi Dom --

Glad you made significant progress and thanks!

-- pj

[dlepera]

Hello me again.

  FYI. this time.  I found a similar post back from April 7th 2023 (imagine that almost a year to the day), where an SX900 had a broken search issue opened by a former member JUKKASTHLM. Too bad that he can not be reached. Not sure what he ever did with his keyboard. I am sure my work around would have solved his issue as well.

   We know the trigger for the search issue and it is so easy to miss it until you try your search. However it does not matter at that point because you could be in a problem state from that point on. Depending and I will explain why?

   However I did do more testing today, trying to find different breaking points and interesting enough, I can get the keyboard to get upset and issue the "max limit" message and the darn thing recovered from it nicely.

   Test.

1. Using my usual populated USB with my 25,000 styles, the one that I always have had and did a search for
     for a name that I can find in many of my style folders.
2.  Searched on "Lady"
3.  Message was triggered saying "The number of search results has exceeded the limit" and populated 10
     pages of entries with the word Lady in it. So now we know 100 entries can only be stored in storage.
4.  I then EXIT, still in Style search entered a search for "Axel" and the darn thing worked very well and still
     working fine. This returned 3 pages of entries with only 1 on the third page so a total of 21 entries. Nice.
5.  All searches are fine for voices, pads, midi, audio regits and styles.
7.  Did my test again with this time the 117,234 of styles and registration used in my previous testing and
     this caused our famous search issue.
8.  Refreshed the Version 1.11 software again reloaded the keyboard and all working fine. 
9.  The key trigger is NOT the thousands of files on a USB, but the max amount of files in a folder for styles. I
     would like to find out what that number is. My point #3 just proved that. Unless there is instability within   
     the search logic.  I also did this test twice for consistency and the results were identical. 
10. Those ".-" files described in the post from the link below are not a problem as I have had those come up
      on my searches for 3 years and read a post on them and since they were not affecting me, I just ignored
      them/paged through them during my searches. No issue for me at least.

            If you care to read that April 2023 SX900 post, it is also lengthy as well. See link below.

             https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php?topic=65965.msg499539#msg499539

      PS.  Let me know if you have had enough of my testing scenarios and findings and I will keep them to my self. Nothing worse than boring people. I understand that there may be just an overload of information here and my nature has always been to Identify Root Cause, document it, get a permanent resolution and if that is not possible find a work around and communicate it.  For me this is not done yet as I will try to pursue still the issue with Yamaha asking for a bug fix if possible.

  I think there is now enough information to explain possible causes, level set some folder/file limitations, and best of all be able to use the work around. I give no guarantees that the work around will work on every keyboard but if the scenarios are the same as mine I really do not see why not.

            Good Luck!   dom

[Lacko]

Looks like my 900 styles will not cause any this kind of problem. Good news, dom, thank you.

Lacko

[dlepera]

Lacko,
           You can always do a style search on just the letter "A" and see what happens. You just might trip over one hundred files and hit the brick wall.  50/50 chance right? You have a work around now worse case.   LOL...  just watch out for that as 100 entries might catch you.

     Regards!         dom

[Lacko]

Thanks dom for your warning.
I'll try to avoid searching for letter ,,A" only :-), but shall keep in mind your workaround anyway.

Have a nice day

Lacko

[EileenL]

I always keep my style folders to well under 250 as I believe this is the suggested amount.

[Lefty]

   Goooooooooooooooooooooooood   Neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeews:!!!

Hi Dom,


Excellent troubleshooting skills.  Having a viable workaround will be invaluable for those who have "bricked" search functions on their SX keyboards. Since this is a recurring theme on this board, How could this workaround be made to be easily found?


Hopefully, this information will get to Yamaha's programming team, where they will program a fix for this bug.  There are still quite a few outstanding bugs in the SX's Operating System.  I'd sure like to see an update fixing them.


Craig

[dlepera]

  Hello Eileen, this whole limit is something that has everyone's head spinning I am sure. Frankly if computers, tables, phones ,etc have no issues with file limits I really don't understand these higher end keyboards having limitations when Yamaha knows that the first thing that people will do is to populate our external storage devices.  I can understand limitations on putting folder and files in the USER area but external storage. I would think that the solutions for that if they really thought it out would have been to cap the size of the external storage.  Example my flag ship Double Din Kenwood car stereo unit years back would not accept anything greater than 4gb. Anything connected greater than that it would not recognize it.  Easily done. In fact Yamaha does do a control on the external storage device format as you. It only supports Fats32.

   Also the evolution of the Style packages offered by the forum and Style folders I see here all have  nice naming structure, but the their size and the files in the folder may or may not adhere to the 250 files per folder. I have not opened each one to see. I assume coming from the forum I can just save them on to my USB and then plug into the keyboard. Hence why I have so many folder/files on it and the draw back to that is that over time I have redundancy and as we create registrations while in that state, it just add a monster layer of complexity if and when a clean up process needs to be done. I understand that now that I know how this Registration search logic kind of works and why I no longer touch folder names. That too is another to be another odd way of doing things, but then again the search engines in these things may not be  like our Mac and Windows. Re-driving a search takes lots of overhead/processing cycles and these things are not designed to provide immediate instantaneous response? Odd again because my cell phone has 1.25TB of data, 1TB micro USB and 256 internal and the search speed is phenomenal. If Samsung can do it why not Yamaha?
 
   If Yamaha really had issues with size then there should be a great big Warning page in the first few pages of the manual like there is for all the regulatory stuff.  Let's face it, who reads the embedded stuff these days when the manuals are 1 mile long?
    Guess all this good added recommendations and rules of thumb comes from experience from people like yourself and many that we see on this forum.   

   Craig as for your question and how to make this workaround easily found, I have no idea. I can only assume that the search title(s) in these posts could direct people to the problem and then the read does it.
  Maybe I can open a new post with a very explicit title for an easier search,  don't know?

Then there is google.  Interesting enough the link to the other similar issue from last year April from Jukkasthlm, I did not get that from searching the form posts. I got it by searching google for similar issues with Yamaha keyboards and it came up.  So this board seems to be structured to allow google to poke in and get forum info, don't know nor do I want to know how it works.  My forte is not server based.  I am a big iron Mainframe guy. Although today things with GUI interfaces are slowly changing.
  So will leave that one to the forum moderators.

           Regards.        dom   

[EileenL]

To make things easy to find I first of all make a folder called styles and within that I make sub folders and name them to the type of style I am saving ie. Ballads, Country, Big Band, Waltz's Swing and Jazz and so on. As I come across new styles I know i will use I save then in the right folder. Makes life much easier. Since owning Yamaha keyboards I have always worked this way and never had a problem.

[overover]

... Then there is google.  Interesting enough the link to the other similar issue from last year April from Jukkasthlm, I did not get that from searching the forum posts. I got it by searching google for similar issues with Yamaha keyboards and it came up.  So this board seems to be structured to allow google to poke in and get forum info, don't know nor do I want to know how it works.  My forte is not server based.  I am a big iron Mainframe guy. Although today things with GUI interfaces are slowly changing.
  So will leave that one to the forum moderators.

           Regards.        dom   

Hi Dom,

To search the entire forum, it is important that you are on the forum homepage (https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php), i.e. not in a subforum/board.

If you can't find what you're looking for by typing in the simple search box, I recommend using "Advanced Search":
>>> https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php?action=search;advanced;search=

Sometimes an additional Google search can also make sense (because you can use your favorite >>> Search Operators). If you enter site:psrtutorial.com/forum in the Google search box, you will only get results from the forum. But with Google you will probably only get search results from forum areas that are accessible without a login.


Best regards,
Chris

[dlepera]

Hi Eileen.

  I have seen your file structure and it is excellent. Hence the reason why I have never reorganized my USBs folders and sub folders.  Initially only did that with my Registration entries, learned a hard lesson from Chris saying NOT to move them around and have never done that again. I just create new Registration folders now and keep the entries to the limit.

   My weakness is this and perhaps why others like me are hitting this search issue.
When I got my arranger, I purchased PSR Style #14.  Put the whole thing on on USB and created my registration folder(s) from everything there and also loaded the Yamaha free playlist as well. Then I ordered the  Style #17 and put on the exact same USB, later ordered Style #18 and added that and the Christmas stuff.  So you see my progression and how I am starting to hang myself?
   
    I did this because I was not sure what all the new stuff would be on any of the packages I purchased and excited to see new I just starting creating new Registration with the new resources.  Now you can see what is happening here. USB getting big, redundancy is introduced, and starting to create a point of NO to very hard return. At this point my registrations can be pulling things from any folder on the USB and I am kind of compelled to keep everything in tack. Hence my 25,000+ entries on USB. Again remember I have not reorganized anything.  So if I tried to strip down my USB, then my Registrations could get all screwed up and I don't want this so I leave well enough alone. I know now that any new stuff will be segregated from this point on like I did with the MS-Disk stuff that was very nicely offered to us on this forum. The last Style package I purchased was Style #18 and loaded on my USB on January 17/24. No issues then until last week. Yes I did the limit messages and the "._" files popping up now and again. but accepted it as it only happened for some specific searches where these same name files were in multiple style packages but, the keyboard never had an issue with any searches. Our file structure mindset I guess is the same as what we see and do on our phones and laptops, etc.

   I just employed that file structure understanding to this keyboard. The USB says Sandisk on it not Yamaha Keyboard(customer be aware), so it should behave like everything else I thought.  Well we now know we are dealing with a totally different logic beast here.

  Chris, got your feedback on the search.  BTW I PMed you this morning with another question.

   Status Update from Yamaha Canada.  They finally got my emails stating my disappointment with their support service and they have stated that they gathered all my details and have forwarded every thing to Yamaha Corporation of Japan and will keep me updated.

  Lets see what happens next.

  Many Thanks.              dom
 

[Aquilauno]

Hi Dleplera,
First of all, a huge thank you, I reinstalled the 1.11 firmware on my SX900 and "magically" the search function started working perfectly again. I did a test looking for the word Sting and it found two pages of styles (exclusively those present in the USB). After three years, thank you again for your tenacity which allowed us to solve this problem. With such an easy solution that I had never thought to consider. With esteem and immense gratitude Pietro

[KurtAgain]

[...] the search speed is phenomenal. If Samsung can do it why not Yamaha?

Because Samsung has strong competition but Yamaha not so? 

[dlepera]

Hello Pietro and Prego!

   I am so glad that this workaround has restored some much needed functionality. I am just very surprised still at Yamaha, at least if a bug fix is not available or they do not want to provide a version upgrade, they could easily provide owners with a software workaround for some pit falls.  Firmware is a different beast and generally screwed when that happens.

   I have at least provided both the USA and Canadian reps finally with this issue description detailed along with my work around.  Would be nice if they test things out, confirm my finding and maybe if they don't provide any further version upgrades, that they can at least make a recommendation to owners with this search issue(if they deem it viable).  Then again $$$$ may come into play so they may just keep it a secret.

   PS.   I am asking anyone that is reading this post and may have a copy of any of the previous version updates before V1.11 to share it with me if possible.  The reason for me would be to drop it into my SX700 and do some playing around with the search function to see for my own curiosity if this issue existed then(I know how to trigger it so it would be easy to check) or if it was introduced with the new versions V1.11 where rather than fix bugs they introduce some. 

  So enjoy your keyboard like you should have enjoyed 3 years ago.  Would be nice if there was a way as it was asked previously in this form to communicate to others that may be in the same state that you have been.

   Best regards to all!

           dom

[Amwilburn]

Because Samsung has strong competition but Yamaha not so? 

Er, not quite.

Samsung makes world class smart phones that uses the latest tech, including memory formatting (I've moved some big files on and off of mine, so I believe it's NTFS, which allows for a maximum file size of 16 exabytes (16million TB) vs 4GB for FAT32 (what keyboards 2006 and later use); previously they were using FAT16, which unfortunately only allowed USB sticks up to 2GB in size to be used; which are now impossible to find.

Yamaha, as pjd has pointed out several times before, is trying to strike a balance between backwards compatibility and new features and products. So they (and all other keyboard manufactureres) seem to have settled on FAT32, which is likey one of the reasons why the G2 doesn't have any more storage space than the G1; the maximum file size in FAT32 being 4GB, means I'm already hitting the limit, even before hitting the 3GB expansion ram limit (I've had to trim out styles and registrations and simply copy them to user drive due to the size limits of FAT32)

I was really hoping they would jump to NTFS, which would have allowed for larger file sizes, but then nobody else has either (to my knowledge)

Although I should point out, once we get out of our pack rat phase (if ever), and begin to streamline the styles/registrations/multipads that was *actually* use, the search system should work. But yes, they should have assumed more.

Cell phones *need* to be fast, especially in file access, not least of which due to the large number of things we store there (photos, email, mp3s) but Yamaha designers (incorrectly) assumed most of us would have at most several thousand files. But *also*, Cell phone files are usually in the order of a few MB in size each, unless you install a game (often over 1GB each). So compounding the issue is the insane number of arranger files we can fit into a FAT32 USB (up to 2 TB) as most of those are around 50kb in size.

So for a standard 128GB cell phone, of which say 30GB is reserved for OS, let's say you have 2 or 3 games on there eating up 3GB (Instagram is almost 1 GB by itself!) and maybe apps totalling another 30GB

Meaning space for files on a cell phone, you'd have maybe 66 GB for user files, that's at *most* 16,000 files if you have no videos

I just looked at my cell phone, and there are just over 700 videos, and 10,000 photos, and 1125 mp3's. so just under 12,000 files for my phone to search


Take the same 128GB for your arranger, and yes, half of that will be eaten up by just a few files (like expansion packs, some of which are as large as 880mb!) but let's say you have roughly half of that left for styles, registrations, midi files, multipads, most of which are around 50kb, we could be searching among 1.3 million files.

That's over 100 times more files than your cell phone. Add that to the fact that the search speed on an arranger isn't as critical, and you have a good idea of the answer.

I just checked my own personal USB, of which I've only used 99GB, so not even full, and I only have 250,000 files on it, but that's still over 20 times more than my cell phone, and searches get exponentially slower with more search entries.

You bet your a** if Yamaha made a cell phone, the search would be *much* faster, and less hobbled.
Incidentally, I had the same search bug on our sx900, and on Genos (prior to OS 2.10? I forgot which update it was that it stopped overloading the searches). It has never shown up on Genos 2.

Mark