style choice

[7788a]

Hi everyone ..
I have a psr-sx900 which I love to bits .. the thing I find most annoying with it (or any of my previous keyboards) is the time it takes  finding the correct style for a song I want to play.. The playlist normally doesn't have the songs I play so that's not the answer ..
Example ..' I'll be there for you'  by the Rembrants (friends theme) I find myself having to go through dozens of styles before I find a similar one and then I'm thinking maybe there is a better one .. ( I used 'Entertainer german rock' in the end )
I wondered how other members handle this .. perhaps there's an easy way .. any suggestions
thanks Konnie ..

[EileenL]

Think most people do the same unless we have a dedicated style for the song. Once I find one I usually add song name and save it to a folder with other styles I use for certain songs.

[BogdanH]

hello Konnie and welcome to the forum,

I'm pretty sure that you're not the only one at struggling to find the right style -and there's no easy way, I think.
Most of us are usually only playing certain genre of music that we like in particular (country, blues, jazz, etc.) and after a while we remember where to search for suitable styles. For example, if we are looking for some country waltz style, then we won't look into Pop&Rock or Jazz category.
On the other hand, if I would search the style for the song that you mentioned, then I would probably look only into Pop&Rock category and if there's nothing suitable... well, bad luck -as you probably realized.

There are sooo many songs and so it's impossible to expect that we will always find suitable style.
Many times we have opposite approach: when we go trough styles checking them (especially if we downloaded some from internet), it can happen that we say "hey, this style would be usable for XY song" -and we make a notice and/or we copy that particular style in some favorite folder (so we don't forget about it).

I know that I have only told you what you know already 
Bogdan

[mikf]

The fastest way to audition styles is to set the keyboard to 'hold' the style tempo. Go into the style setting menu, select change behavior and then tempo, the set to 'hold'.
Now you can move between styles rapidly without a tempo change. So now to audition styles for a particular song, you first tap in the tempo you want to play the song, select a style you think might work, play the first couple of bars of the song while playing the appropriate chords and humming the tune in your head. Select another style without stopping, and repeat. Keep on doing this until a style that works well pops up. I find I can work through 10 or 15 styles this way in a minute.
As long as you start with a rough idea of what styles might work, it's often possible to find a couple or three that come close very quickly, then home in on the best. Of course it won't work well if you have zero idea, but that's not normally the case. You usually know the likely genre ......it might be a swing, light Latin or a fast swing or a shuffle or whatever.
I typically do it on variation 2 and then try other variations once I am getting close.
Mike

[Bill]

Hi Konnie

Welcome to the forum. Finding a nice style to suite a song is never easy. Some people just have a natural ability to link a general style to any song (I'm not one of those people unfortunately).
However if you get stuck - simply ask on this forum. Someone will always help out.

Bill

[Fred Smith]

My best advice is to start with the tempo. Look for styles which have a similar tempo to the song. They tend to work the best.

Cheers,
Fred

[andyg]

If you go back far enough with keyboards - they were simply called 'keyboards' then, not 'arrangers' or 'workstations', they had no factory presets, music finders or playlists. So owners would learn what their keyboards did, they'd check out all the voices and effects, and audition the styles. No user memories, so they'd write the settings down. They'd find their favourites, and realise that some combinations of voices and style would, with a little tweak here and there, work for many songs.

Keyboards became more complex, many more voices, styles and features. The market asked for (and got) factory presets that matched suggested sounds to a given style - the beginnings of OTS. Then the market asked for more and we got things like Music Finder and eventually Playlists. All good stuff, but it had the unfortunate effect that many players would only use these, and never explore the keyboard's potential. Some might only play the tunes that were in the playlists etc, and then only if they had the music.

I've always held the view, and I have since I helped design some of the first keyboards on the market, that they offered the player the ability to arrange their music. It didn't matter if the style they chose wasn't like the original, or if the sounds they used weren't the ones suggested in the books (which were often rubbish suggestions anyway!). Isn't that one reason why we call them 'arranger keyboards' these days.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the people who only use OTS etc or those that insist on a style that's ultra-close to the original song. I'm delighted they're making music, which is the bottom line. But I'm sometimes a bit saddened to think that they're missing so much of what people like me and my many colleagues put into the instrument.

So my advice, as always, is 'arrange the tunes your way, re-style them and explore what your keyboard can do for you'. It should all be part of the fun and enjoyment of playing. If you're enjoying yourself, who cares if the style is 'wrong' or you're using the 'wrong' sounds? Go fort it!!

[DrakeM]

Welcome to the forum

I use the keyboard's style creator and cut and paste various style parts to mix together and make a style for each song. It takes time but I enjoy how well it sounds.   

But you may find these links useful for ideas:

Playlist for all keyboard up to Genos 1
https://app.box.com/s/rc4oo7visj2lkwx8irul8x4ev542d2in

Play list for Genos 2
https://app.box.com/s/g6azwa2lgtrzau3bhbzgbzp1o4hds7sl

You may download all the new Genos 2 that I have converted to use in older keyboards
https://www.tinyurl.com/Genos2024

Drake

[7788a]

Thank you to everyone for your welcoms and answers to my post  and thank you Drake for the links (I've yet to try) ..
Sounds like there is no easy way and I've tried most of your suggestions unfortunately .. I like the hold the tempo idea ..
I  run all of my songs through Chordify/Chordtracker  and they also give the tempo .. but I don't know how to hold the tempo ? that would help a lot .. Must learn how to do that.. I really don't do this keyboard justice.. still learning little things..
Thing is I never really learn a song and keep it ..I just love to hear and play those special chord changes that lft a song .. F#m7(b5)  and the like.. you know what I mean ? then I'm onto something else ..
well thanks again everyone ..
and Happy Easter  Konnie ..


Edit: Reply text set to normal font size by overover

[pedro_pedroc]

Hello,

Well, I think you must know every built-in style of your arranger keyboard...
For me, I just sit and play style by style - it's fun, give me some inspiration, and you know what is inside of the keyboard.

I think there isn't another better way to do that.
And believe me, it's fun to play all styles once at least, so many beautiful intros, so many variations... you won't regret it.

Pedro

[mikf]

Pedro - that's ok, but you have to avoid falling into what I call 'karaoke keyboard'. That's where you try to find a style that comes close to replicating a well known recording of the song. Then you play simple chords and a mechanical one finger melody line and think it's great. It's not and it's exactly what has made arrangers the unwelcome stepchild of musical instruments. Andyg refers to this in a slightly different way above, but we are on the same page.
Mike

[BogdanH]

...avoid falling into what I call 'karaoke keyboard'. That's where you try to find a style that comes close to replicating a well known recording of the song. Then you play simple chords and a mechanical one finger melody line and think it's great....

I get what you mean, however I think you look too much from solo pianist perspective.

At playing many popular songs/melodies on arranger, we just can't avoid single finger playing with right hand. This song for example -we can only play sax melody with one finger at a time. If the same song is played on piano, then the pianist is simply forced to play multi-fingered to make main melody richer (single fingered would sound quite lame).

What I'm saying is, while single finger playing on piano is unacceptable, that's not necessary true for arranger... on arranger, our fingers are many times busy with panel buttons while we play -it's also a part of performance.

Just my opinion,
Bogdan

[overover]

.. I like the hold the tempo idea ..
.. but I don't know how to hold the tempo ? that would help a lot .. Must learn how to do that ..

Welcome to the PSR Tutorial Forum, Konnie!

I recommend you to set the "Tempo" parameter to "Hold" in the Style Setting display under "Change Behavior". If you then call up another style while a style is running, the Tempo originally set is preserved. So you can listen to many styles with a given Tempo to find a suitable style for a specific song reatively quickly. This setting ("Hold") can also be maintained permanently, because it does not bother when it comes to normal playing.

Alternatively, you can set "Lock" at "Change Behavior". Then the current Tempo is preserved also if you stop the style in between. However, "Lock" should not be set permanently, i.e. after you have found a suitable style, you should set "Reset" or "Hold" again.

In the SX900 Reference Manual you will find information on these settings on pages 12/13.

See also the following thread:
>>> https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,61867.msg474064.html#msg474064


Best regards,
Chris

[bpsafran]

Try this software. The video has English subtitles.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=77m9ZYghx4Y&list=PL7RKP3gUtidoPHOwxkA8QmWu34sg3Ck-K&pp=iAQB

[mikf]

You are right of course Bogdan, many instruments are monophonic, and it would be unrealistic to play multi notes. That's why I said mechanical. I think we can all recognize those performances where all the correct notes are played, but it just doesn't sound natural or musical, no matter how good the style is.
Mike

[BogdanH]

Ah yes, I agree on that, Mike.
The problem with arranger is, that it can be "too perfect". Or to put it differently: a perfect style should not sound perfect: it should sound realistic (which isn't easy to achieve).

Bogdan

[pjd]

Just had a fun morning. Yesterday, our pianist played a terrific two-fisted, up-tempo, solo version of "Let The River Flow" by Darrell Evans. I took the tune, stripped it down to a pensive, "unplugged" guitar arrangement with a basic melody -- sometimes one-fingered.

My advice -- find a great song. Find a style that makes you want to sing. Use as many fingers as you want. Most importantly, use your ears. If it sounds cheap, it is. Modify. Iterate.

Mostly, have fun -- the rest will follow    -- pj

[J. Larry]

Having played cover tunes in live bands was a big help when getting into arranger keyboards.  You quickly learn that different styles fit songs you've played, i.e., shuffle, swing, rock, etc...  I like the suggestion made to create your own arrangements and not try to match original versions.  For variety's sake, I may play a tune latin one time; the next time as swing, or whatever.  If you're into country music take a listen to Tennessee Whiskey by Chris Stapleton, then, check out George Jones' version.  Very different styles, indeed.

[richkeys]

....many instruments are monophonic, and it would be unrealistic to play multi notes. That's why I said mechanical. I think we can all recognize those performances where all the correct notes are played, but it just doesn't sound natural or musical, no matter how good the style is.
Mike

Interesting discussion. It is for this reason that I find myself choosing only piano more often for the right hand melody voice. That means using much less sax, flute, trumpet etc. I mean it's fun using those, but just not all the time. I tend to play more new age piano, film scores & orchestral/Classical more so than pop songs, so this works for me. I find using just piano in RH lets me tap into my decade of learning piano when I was a kid. I can thicken the RH melody with extra piano notes for more variation. Of course it depends on the song and genre, but other polyphonic instruments such as guitar, orchestral strings, organ also allows more sophisticated playing in the right hand, if that makes sense.

[pedro_pedroc]

Hello.

Interesting points here for all of you, which I respect all of course.

For me, and only my opinion, I try to make the closest instrumental cover ever realised - I've been creating the most complex styles I can to get my covers sound closest to the original songs - and I use almost all keyboard features to accomplish the mission, hours of programming and trying different settings of sounds and put everything inside the style to contral the band in real time on any key (it's arranger)... For those who didn't know me, watch my videos and you'll see what I'm talking about...

It's my way of playing and what I like to do.
In the past, I only used builtin styles and did my best in my songs (they didn't sound like the original, but I was very happy with "my version")... But now, I'm creating all my own stuff, my custom styles from scratch (yes, from zero really - no softwares - softwares don't have ears)...
This can be used as a karaoke? For sure it can. But, I guarantee, it will be the best karaoke ever...

About monovoices (sax, and so on), I prefer to use piano/epiano/synths too, so I can play several notes at the same time... However, sometimes, I have some few songs with sax and flutes, because sometimes they sound better than piano. It's just one finger? Yes, but it's not only about fingers... It's how you play, how you use articulation, vibrato on your fingers, the correct volume and the correct style... Listen to the chorus of the song "Hurts to Be in Love (Gino Vanelli)" - I play the melody with Sax (can't think about other voice for melody here...) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7-XKkZWibI.

Best wishes,
Pedro

[mikf]

Agreed, yes it is not about how many fingers, but how you play. I was referring to the people who put a lot of time and effort into finding/ creating a great style but then play very simple chords and play the melody mechanically like a learner, regardless of whether the voice is monophonic or not.
My point is that everyone can instantly tell this is being played badly, and the work put into the style is really then a waste of time. They should put the effort into playing with feeling, good phrasing, adding some frills and ornament so it becomes personal.
Mike

[BogdanH]

...put the effort into playing with feeling, good phrasing, adding some frills and ornament so it becomes personal.

-very well said.
It shouldn't be just "I can play that song too". To achieve what you say, we really must like the song.. we need to adopt it, so to speak.
In that sense, a style shouldn't be in foreground (to demonstrate keyboard capability or creator's skill) -a style should only support our actual playing.

Bogdan

[Mike Brotherton]

Hi my names Mike and I enjoy playing keyboards as a relaxing recreation.  Not as an entertainer or performer but just as a form of stress relief.  Usually, for at least one hour in a day. Therefore the correct style does not matter and over time I have established styles I am happy with.  I agree With J Larry April 01 2024 but occasionally I will be invited by a friend to play at a party or a friend will call and say, "Didn't know you played the piano?"  It not a piano its a music arranger.  "Oh gives us a demo then" I never say, What would you like to hear?  I will play Acker Bilks Stranger on the Shore, because that style is well established and follow up with Perfidia which incidentally has been recorded by at least 80 different established artists from say Glen Miller to the Shadows and together we have a bit of fun

[andyg]

Re: Monophonic playing etc.

Indeed, if you're playing an instrument that can only play one note at a time, like a sax, then a one finger melody is correct. But what about if the sheet music itself goes from a single note line to one with chords, or one that's polyphonic in nature? It's then that you have to start thinking a little about orchestration and how to achieve the desired results.

OK, our solo sax line is going chordal, playing in thirds, perhaps. No problem, put a different sax into R2. It must not be the same sax or you'll get nasty phasing issues! You can balance the two voices as required, they're probably going to be roughly equal. But at the moment the two sax players are standing on top of one another on stage - ouch! So now, pan one slightly left and the other slightly right - about 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock will do. How about detuning one or both? +1 or +2 on one and -1 or -2 on the other will be enough. Make sure they're using the same values for reverb (they are on the same stage!) and for that matter, check what DSP they're using and the parameters.

A fair bit to think about, but it's worth doing for  two reasons. 1) you get used to what the keyboard can do in these respects and 2) most importantly, it will sound good. Get things dead right and play appropriately and accurately and it can sound 'real'! The brain hears two instrument sounds and subconsciously thinks that one is playing the higher note and the other the lower note. We know that's not actually the case, but it can 'fool' us too!

There's a piece in the Grade 6 keyboard exam syllabus that cries out for one of the Tenor Saxes we have on Genos and SX, but all of a sudden, there's a fill in phrase under the melody note. The only way around that one was to use three registrations - 1) solo sax 2) solo sax plus sax section 3) back to solo sax. The change had to be done lightning fast, so a registration sequence was created, used to call in a drum fill in at the same time.

All good fun and the kind of thing that's de rigeur in exams. My students are doing from very early one so by Grade 6 they're old hands at it. 

[Amwilburn]

Just had a fun morning. Yesterday, our pianist played a terrific two-fisted, up-tempo, solo version of "Let The River Flow" by Darrell Evans. I took the tune, stripped it down to a pensive, "unplugged" guitar arrangement with a basic melody -- sometimes one-fingered.

My advice -- find a great song. Find a style that makes you want to sing. Use as many fingers as you want. Most importantly, use your ears. If it sounds cheap, it is. Modify. Iterate.

Mostly, have fun -- the rest will follow    -- pj

Literally words to live by!