Genos 2: Transition NIGHTMARES

[Heidrun]

That's great Wim -

but only the half reality!

Interesting would also be which Styles we do find now under different name.

Do you also have a list here?

[Heidrun]

By the way - I documented each of our shop products over the adaption weeks- so what was done and what was the difficulty.

If you want to take a look into this list:

https://soundwonderland.de/pages/en/service/help/support-for-genos2-players.php

[Bill]

Hello Bill,
  The Genos styles left of Genos2 have been given to us in the free Genos complete pack so we have not really lost any. As to showing (Style not on Genos) this is probably due to the fact you used a third party style and did not make a note of which one so that you can re-link it. I always find it a good idea to make a folder and save all the third party styles used on registrations in this Also give them the name of the registration so you can easily find them and re-link.

Hi Eileen

You may well be correct, I just don't know. However I'm not going to loose any MORE sleep over it.  I'm a home player only so it is not time critical. However there must be many people who do earn a living playing the Genos and cannot afford to keep the Genos 1 for several weeks until the transition is complete. I also agree with Heidun in her post, I could possibly forgive Yamaha if they would just tell me why.

There is no doubt that the Genos 2 is a great keyboard, however the upgrade from the G1 does not have that WOW factor, so it will be my last Yamaha keyboard.

Bill

[Wim NL]

That's great Wim -

but only the half reality!

Interesting would also be which Styles we do find now under different name.


GENOS1                             GENOS 2
Pop   1.02   KissDancePop   Pop   5.10   10sDancePop
Pop   4.02   CrazyPop   Pop   6.04   FunkyPop
Pop   5.06   PopEvergreen   Pop   7.07   PassionPop
Pop   5.05   Live8Beat   Pop   8.07   00sBluesyBallad
Rock   1.07   Summer8BeatRock   Rock   1.10   10s8BeatRock
RetroPop   3.04   80sDivaBallad   RetroPop   1.07   80s6-8DX Ballad
RetroPop   2.09   Swedish8BeatPop   RetroPop   4.10   70sSwedish8Beat
RetroPop   2.08   Uptempo8Beat   RetroPop   6.08   Up-tempo8Beat
Pop   4.04   WestCoastPop   RetroPop   7.03   WestCoastBeat
RetroPop   2.01   GrooveShack   RetroPop   7.04   GrooveCamp
RetroPop   2.04   SheriffReggae   RetroPop   8.01   ReefReggae
RetroPop   2.05   HappyReggae   RetroPop   8.07   LightReggae
RetroPop   2.07   Wonder8Beat   RetroPop   9.05   80s8BeatBallad
Oldies   1.02   60sShadowedPop   Oldies   3.02   60sInstrumentalPop
Oldies   1.07   60sRisingPop   Oldies   3.08   60sFolkPop
Dance   1.01   PartyAnthem   Dance   1.05   SynthElectro
Dance   2.08   ClubDance1   Dance   4.09   ClubDance
Oldies   3.09   BlueberryBlues   R&B   2.08   BlueBlues
R&B   1.03   SoulSupreme   R&B   3.02   DetroitSoul
Entertainer   1.03   FantasyFox   Entertainer   6.03   DreamFox
RetroPop   4.08   RoseDisco   Entertainer   8.04   SchlagerDisco
Entertainer   2.08   YoungBallad   Entertainer   8.07   SchlagerBallad
Country   3.01   Hoedown   Country   1.05   TexasHoedown
Country   4.01   CountryFolk8Beat   Country   2.10   FastCountryBlues
Country   4.05   CountryStraits   Country   3.08   CountryPopRock
Country   2.10   Country8Beat3   Country   4.02   Country8Beat2
Country   4.06   TopChartCountry   Country   4.09   ChartCountry
Country   3.08   CountrySingalong   Country   5.08   70sCountryFolkPop
Jazz   1.02   BigBandCount   Jazz   1.04   BigBandUp-tempo
Jazz   2.03   JazzOrganGroove   Jazz   3.01   DrawbarGroove
Jazz   2.08   UpTempoSwing   Jazz   3.08   Up-tempoSwing
Jazz   2.09   ManhattanSwing   Jazz   3.09   CitySingersSwing
EasyListening   1.02   HappyBeat   EasyListening   1.04   JollyBeat
EasyListening   3.04   OrganBossa   EasyListening   4.03   OrganBossa1
Ballroom   1.01   MoonWaltz   Ballroom   1.03   DreamyWaltz
Ballroom   1.07   Quickstep2   Ballroom   1.06   Quickstep
Ballroom   1.09   SlowFoxtrot2   Ballroom   1.08   Foxtrot
Ballroom   1.08   SlowFoxtrot2   Ballroom   1.09   FoxtrotCombo
Ballroom   2.01   Cha-cha1   Ballroom   2.01   Cha-Cha
Ballroom   2.03   Samba1   Ballroom   2.03   Samba
Ballroom   2.07   Rumba2   Ballroom   2.06   Rumba
Ballroom   2.06   Rumba1   Ballroom   4.01   LoungeRumba
Ballroom   2.09   Tango2   Ballroom   4.02   OrchestralTango
Movie&Show   2.09   MoviePanther   Movie&Show   3.05   MovieMystery
Movie&Show   3.08   SaturdayNight   Movie&Show   3.07   DiscoDrama
Classic&Events   5.03   ChristmasSwing   Classic&Events   2.02   ChristmasSwing1
Trad&Folk   4.06   GermanMarch1   Trad&Folk   4.07   GermanMarch
Trad&Folk   4.08   TheatreMarch   Trad&Folk   4.08   TheaterMarch

Do you also have a list here?

[Heidrun]

WHOW Wim - thanks a lot!!!!! 😊👍👍👍👍

[Wim NL]

Here the list of missing style with alternative style Genos 2


GENOS 1                           GENOS 2
Pop   1.02   KissDancePop   Pop   5.10   10sDancePop
Pop   4.02   CrazyPop   Pop   6.04   FunkyPop
Pop   5.06   PopEvergreen   Pop   7.07   PassionPop
Pop   5.05   Live8Beat   Pop   8.07   00sBluesyBallad
Rock   1.07   Summer8BeatRock   Rock   1.10   10s8BeatRock
RetroPop   3.04   80sDivaBallad   RetroPop   1.07   80s6-8DX Ballad
RetroPop   2.09   Swedish8BeatPop   RetroPop   4.10   70sSwedish8Beat
RetroPop   2.08   Uptempo8Beat   RetroPop   6.08   Up-tempo8Beat
Pop   4.04   WestCoastPop   RetroPop   7.03   WestCoastBeat
RetroPop   2.01   GrooveShack   RetroPop   7.04   GrooveCamp
RetroPop   2.04   SheriffReggae   RetroPop   8.01   ReefReggae
RetroPop   2.05   HappyReggae   RetroPop   8.07   LightReggae
RetroPop   2.07   Wonder8Beat   RetroPop   9.05   80s8BeatBallad
Oldies   1.02   60sShadowedPop   Oldies   3.02   60sInstrumentalPop
Oldies   1.07   60sRisingPop   Oldies   3.08   60sFolkPop
Dance   1.01   PartyAnthem   Dance   1.05   SynthElectro
Dance   2.08   ClubDance1   Dance   4.09   ClubDance
Oldies   3.09   BlueberryBlues   R&B   2.08   BlueBlues
R&B   1.03   SoulSupreme   R&B   3.02   DetroitSoul
Entertainer   1.03   FantasyFox   Entertainer   6.03   DreamFox
RetroPop   4.08   RoseDisco   Entertainer   8.04   SchlagerDisco
Entertainer   2.08   YoungBallad   Entertainer   8.07   SchlagerBallad
Country   3.01   Hoedown   Country   1.05   TexasHoedown
Country   4.01   CountryFolk8Beat   Country   2.10   FastCountryBlues
Country   4.05   CountryStraits   Country   3.08   CountryPopRock
Country   2.10   Country8Beat3   Country   4.02   Country8Beat2
Country   4.06   TopChartCountry   Country   4.09   ChartCountry
Country   3.08   CountrySingalong   Country   5.08   70sCountryFolkPop
Jazz   1.02   BigBandCount   Jazz   1.04   BigBandUp-tempo
Jazz   2.03   JazzOrganGroove   Jazz   3.01   DrawbarGroove
Jazz   2.08   UpTempoSwing   Jazz   3.08   Up-tempoSwing
Jazz   2.09   ManhattanSwing   Jazz   3.09   CitySingersSwing
EasyListening   1.02   HappyBeat   EasyListening   1.04   JollyBeat
EasyListening   3.04   OrganBossa   EasyListening   4.03   OrganBossa1
Ballroom   1.01   MoonWaltz   Ballroom   1.03   DreamyWaltz
Ballroom   1.07   Quickstep2   Ballroom   1.06   Quickstep
Ballroom   1.09   SlowFoxtrot2   Ballroom   1.08   Foxtrot
Ballroom   1.08   SlowFoxtrot2   Ballroom   1.09   FoxtrotCombo
Ballroom   2.01   Cha-cha1   Ballroom   2.01   Cha-Cha
Ballroom   2.03   Samba1   Ballroom   2.03   Samba
Ballroom   2.07   Rumba2   Ballroom   2.06   Rumba
Ballroom   2.06   Rumba1   Ballroom   4.01   LoungeRumba
Ballroom   2.09   Tango2   Ballroom   4.02   OrchestralTango
Movie&Show   2.09   MoviePanther   Movie&Show   3.05   MovieMystery
Movie&Show   3.08   SaturdayNight   Movie&Show   3.07   DiscoDrama
Classic&Events   5.03   ChristmasSwing   Classic&Events   2.02   ChristmasSwing1
Trad&Folk   4.06   GermanMarch1   Trad&Folk   4.07   GermanMarch
Trad&Folk   4.08   TheatreMarch   Trad&Folk   4.08   TheaterMarch

[Wim NL]

You can dowload my worksheet G1 VS G2 HERE MESSAGE#7

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,68036.msg515485.html#msg515485

[BogdanH]

I am not shure of that.
It will be in a different folder so another path name.

If we open registry file with hex viewer, then we can see that path name is only used for external (user) styles and that there's no path defined for internal (preset) styles -that is, path to preset styles is encoded differently inside registration... and I guess nobody outside Yamaha knows what algorithm is used. Maybe there (in OS) is some internal list of addresses which tells where particular preset style is.
And without that info, it's impossible to create a software that would automate conversion process.

@everyone
I'm not against Legacy folder solution or any solution that would make transition easier. But we can yell as much we can, that probably won't change anything. We complained about various things in the past without any success -it's wasted energy that brings nothing. Except we can vent a little -is a stress relief 

Bogdan

[Heidrun]

We will see - ,,hope dies at least" as we say here in Germany, Bogdan!
My videos meanwhile have reached Yamaha... 😉

And again thanks to Wim - his file is more useful! 😊👍

[Wim NL]

If we open registry file with hex viewer, then we can see that path name is only used for external (user) styles and that there's no path defined for internal (preset) styles -that is, path to preset styles is encoded differently inside registration... and I guess nobody outside Yamaha knows what algorithm is used. Maybe there (in OS) is some internal list of addresses which tells where particular preset style is.
And without that info, it's impossible to create a software that would automate conversion process.

@everyone
I'm not against Legacy folder solution or any solution that would make transition easier. But we can yell as much we can, that probably won't change anything. We complained about various things in the past without any success -it's wasted energy that brings nothing. Except we can vent a little -is a stress relief 

Bogdan

Internal style have another drive letter.

with the Yamaha registration manager you could change this.
You have to test this if it still works in Genos2

[BogdanH]

Internal style have another drive letter.

No, internal styles have no path (also no drive letter, no style name) defined in registry file. If you check with YRM, you can see that in case of internal style, only style name is shown (which is taken from YRM itself).
It seems that Murray succeeded in decoding internal styles naming system in registry files. Too bad that YRM isn't updated for Genos2... Anyway, he would be able to make a (automatic) converter that would make Genos1 registry files compatible with Genos2 (by assuming that Genos1 styles are loaded in Genos2 user memory).
The question is, is Yamaha ready to make such software? Where do we need to sign petition? 

Bogdan

[robinez]

In my humble opinion, neither of you are 'thinking' from the consumer's point of view. To put it simply: there are many consumers who have been buying Yamaha keyboards for years and have paid a lot of money for them. Do those customers have to keep putting in work because Yamaha makes it very difficult for them to simply keep the 'old' and buy the 'new'? Whether you do it commercially or as a hobby does not matter in this case. I'd rather spend the time playing than having to do all kinds of tricks to manually update my playlists again. When you see what people are not capable of doing digitally these days! We live in 2024! I don't see why Yamaha can't prevent that, let THEM explain why that's not possible!! 

But for private users (not commercial), they already have great solutions available that many genos users are using (at least everyone I know uses this same method). Just use a usb drive for your styles, registrations and playlists. If you copy the style to a folder (or set of folders if you have thousends of styles like i have) on the usb drive and create your playlist and registration setups based on that usb location, also save the registrations and playlists on the usb stick and then you everything is perfect.

if you want to play on another genos, just add your usb drive to it, and everything is exactly the same and works immediately as on your own genos. If you have a genos 2, just add your genos 1 usb drive to the genos 2 and everything will work just like on your genos 1.

If you just follow this simple rule then it fully backwards compatible.

For commercial stores this isn't possible, because that would mean that they will sell 'derived' work, so they simply aren't allowed to do it this way, but this is a very specific user case for a commercial store, and I keep saying it, if you are using factory resources from a specific model for commercial use, then that work is only for that model, it's not reasonable to expect that new models also have a copy of the previous model on board. So you need to do new work to support the new model and I would also use the new features of that model for my customers. But of course the time spent would validate an update fee in my opinion.

[Bill]

You can dowload my worksheet G1 VS G2 HERE MESSAGE#7

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,68036.msg515485.html#msg515485

Hi Wim

Many thanks for the spreadsheet, however could you explain the colour coding. I dare say I can fathom it out, but knowing my look, I'll get it wrong again.

Bill

[ton37]

Thnx @robinez for your reply. I've had a few Yammies before, so I know how that works. But the fact remains that the buyer of a top keyboard has to solve it himself, while the seller of that keyboard sits back quietly, collects his money and leaves it to the market. I just don't want that 'workaround', I don't want to make copies, etc. etc. Yamaha should make it easy for me to purchase the next top keyboard from them. This is how it should be: consumers standing up for their rights.
Oh well... the reality is that 'people' have simply accepted this for a long time. Well...and me too apparently 

[Heidrun]

Me too - but the effort from Tyros5 was extremely high with nearly half a year adaption work.

My high hope was high that this time it will be better because Genos and Genos2 are the same family.

But from registration pack to registration pack I got more desperate that it is still the same as before.
So I decided to go an official way with my video to hear the opinion of other users and also to get Yamaha by.

A day after Alois Müller asked me for an interview to hear more about the reason of my video.

I really love Yamaha keyboards and I play Yamaha since 40 years.
But with growing desperation, because my feeling was, that basic needs are not heard enough.

Who follows my activities in the internet knows about my huge engagement over so many years to support Yamaha and its customers.
Long before I had an online shop!

What I mentioned in my video is a problem for all customers that create registrations worldwide if they are not wise enough to carry previous styles with them.

But that can't be the solution in my opinion.

Please remember:
The storage size of all Genos Styles isn't more than 2-3 wave songs.

[sh]

Heidrun, you speak from my heart.

There seem to be 2 main opinions on the subject of Genos 2 backwards compatibility here in the forum. And the discussions honestly surprised me. There is one main group (let's call it "Main Group 1") who, in my opinion, defend Yamaha (which they don't have to) and say that you can (and should) live with the status quo.

And then the "main group 2" (which includes me) who don't want to do all this conversion work (and after selling the Genos 1 they can no longer compare directly). What is interesting and surprising to me is that "main group 1" partly dismisses the complaints of "main group 2" as complaining/whining and defends Yamaha, sometimes without wanting to understand the actual problem ("it's not that bad after all", "G2 sounds much better anyway" etc.).

I think it's great and I'm grateful that there are a lot of tips for solving problems here, but unfortunately they don't help or only help a little in this case. I would be happy if users' concerns were taken seriously. Both here in the forum and at the manufacturer. And that statements like "that's just the way it is and Yamaha must have thought of something about it" might not really fit after all.

Sorry for my very long post, I hope I didn't upset anyone. Still had to be said.

And again, I LOVE the sound of Genos 2. It's a great arranger.

Happy playing!

[Heidrun]

Oh yes, sh!

I also love Yamaha keyboards - otherwise there would have never been my high engagement for this brand.

But leaving all as it always was cannot be the solution, if there is an easy way to improve something.

[Wim NL]

Hi Wim

Many thanks for the spreadsheet, however could you explain the colour coding. I dare say I can fathom it out, but knowing my look, I'll get it wrong again.

Bill

Filter Column F
GENOS1  =   GENOS2 : Style + name/Tag are the same
GENOS1 ALT GENOS2 : Genos1 Style (Light green) not in Genos2, Alternative style in Genos2 (light purple)
GENOS1  N   GENOS2 : New style in Genos2 (green text)
GENOS1 TAG GENOS2 : Genos1 and Genos2 styles are the same, but have a different name/tag (light blue)

AZ↓ Column E Genos1 styles are on order
AZ↓ Column L Genos2 styles are on order

[Bill]

Hi Wim

Many thanks for quick reply. It really is appreciated.

Regards
Bill

[Stijn]

A professional is not allowed to do the same to protect himself if Yamaha changes preset styles or leave old ones in new keyboards out, because we have to keep copyrights.
We are not allowed to also give Yamaha styles to the clients when we sell our own products.

Is there no way that you can get permission or a license to add a Yamaha Preset Style to your product?
That way you could include the preset style that your product needs and give the customer instructions on how to add the style to a dedicated folder on his keyboard.
It would make it easier to upgrade in the future and could be a way to modify the existing packs.
Just a thought....

Stijn

[Heidrun]

That is the second question Yamaha will get, Stijn.
The first one is the legacy folder because not each player worldwide has the ability to copy styles to his usb stick.

It is not only me and our shop - first I see all customers! ;-)

[spaceair]

can you imagine having such problems with midi files? A nightmare haha. 

[murrayb]

This is an interesting topic that I arrived at late.

Probably nobody on this forum has more knowledge of the internal workings of registrations than I have gained over eight years of developing YRM.  The basic structure of the registration has changed little over that time.  Sure new parts were added and some were extended, but for instance style section is entirely the same for every keyboard since the first one that used .rgt type registrations and is exactly the same for every keyboard - PSR, Tyros, Genos and CVP.  As a mater of fact the entire basic structure is the same for all these keyboards.

I must agree with Heidrun.  There is absolutely no reason why legacy styles can't be included in a new keyboard the same way as voices, multipads and dsp.

The name of the style is irrelevant.  The style midi sequence link is controlled by a 2 byte code number unique to that sequence.  That two byte code is what is stored in the registration.  The folders you see on the keyboard with the style name are just presentation. 

One of the first problems Bill (first post) encountered was that his Foxtrot style wasn't on the Genos 2.  Therefore the keyboard would attempt to replace the style with something else, or would just leave the previous style in place, so it just wouldn't sound the same.  The keyboard does not tell you that the style in your registration is no longer available, or what it was.

So at least if the legacy style was stored you would have a good starting point.

Tweaking registrations sure beats what some of us had to do a number of years back.  All my sheet music had scripts written on top for rhythm, tempo, right voices, left voices etc. that had to be entered before starting to play.  Registrations converted these scripts to instant recall by the press of a couple of buttons.  We should be happy about technical progress.

Murray

[Heidrun]

Hello Murray,

thank you very much for your post here.
It was very interesting to read!

Yes, no doubt!
We all may be happy and thankful what is achieved in the keyboard sector until today.
Also I am!!!! And surely I keep playing Yamaha keyboards because they fullfill most of my personal needs.

But there's still a chance to improve things that are difficult to handle for the users.

There was e.g. no YRM if there were no missing features.
So backwards compatibility for example, what was the topic of my video.



Kind regards, Heidrun