Genos 2 - Orchestral Violin 1 - whoa!

[Tommarr]

I am comparing Styles and Voices - G1 vs G2

All voices that are on G1 sound the same on G2 (to my ear) with one exception - Orchestral Violin 1 - Super Articulation
The G1 voice is polyphonic on this voice. Very good.

On the G2 it is monophonic.
Depending on how you play, the violin slides beautifully between notes, portamento-like.
This is the most realistic violin that I ever heard.
(who cleans up the rosin!?)

Differences can be in the details.

Until you play a G2, its just specs.

[ton37]

Good to read you liked that violin. I think there are quite some users who  do not have to compare as it is their first Genos. So those must be overwhelmd i guess 

[ton37]

I am comparing Styles and Voices - G1 vs G2

All voices that are on G1 sound the same on G2 (to my ear) .......

That is surprising, as yamaha (liar?) wrote that they had resampled all the voices or did they just the new ones??

[Ric4001]

I wonder if this violin is a new sample or if it's just reprogrammed as mono with modified portamento settings. 

[DerekA]

That is surprising, as yamaha (liar?) wrote that they had resampled all the voices or did they just the new ones??

I would say that a number of the onboard wave samples have not been touched since the late 90's .....

[ton37]

If they are good, then it is not a problem

[Tommarr]

Please verify if Yamaha updated all Voices. That might well be true.
Don't want to have misinformation to be out there.
My disclaimer was 'to my ear'.

The Orchestral Violin 1 was a standout to me.

[andyg]

That's definitely a plus point for me when I make the change to G2.

You can switch Orchestral Violin 1 to Mono on G1, but it doesn't slide. If you edit the voice and increase the Portamento time to something like 35, with Fixed Time, it sounds like the violinist is drunk and slides between every note, no way of controlling it by switching the Portamento mode. Guess Yamaha have fixed that one. 

It's a lovely voice, as is the milder Orchestral Violin 2 but I've been using my own edited version of a very old Violin voice where I can edit all the portamento parameters. G2 will change that!

[pjd]

Please verify if Yamaha updated all Voices. That might well be true.
Don't want to have misinformation to be out there.
My disclaimer was 'to my ear'.

The Orchestral Violin 1 was a standout to me.

The newest Yamaha arranger maintains backward compatibility with its predecessor(s). Yamaha are pack rats and rarely throw anything out. That way, old styles, voices and so forth should sound and play roughly the same moving forward.

Yamaha definitely do not resample everything from one generation to the next. This would be beastly expensive. I made a list of the new voices (with new-to-Genos samples): https://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-genos2-new-voices/

I use the Bank MSB/LSB/PC numbers as a guide. Generally, if the voice numbers are the same, the voice programming and samples are the same.

Yamaha did spill the REVelation reverb everywhere -- like hot sauce. In terms of programming and cost, this is a relatively inexpensive way to update old content. I've crawled through the programming for about 20+ styles and they all use the new REVeleation reverb and Multiband compressor.

The Orchestra1stViolin, etc. appeared with the so-called "Seattle Strings" waveforms. Yamaha still creates an occasional new voice using old samples. "There are always exceptions." 

Have fun with G2 -- pj

P.S. I get my new piano today!

[soryt]

I made a quick recording  ( with I-Pad) and the violin is nice ( i think)  , short improvisation
https://soundcloud.com/arno-van-denderen/violin-movie-tune/s-U0oGnorTBVc?si=23b5da2a80d946369450bee08a29dae2&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

[Ric4001]

That sounds amazing.  Thanks for recording that.

[rattley]

Hello!

"Please verify if Yamaha updated all Voices.........."

A very good question but what exactly does "updated" mean??  Re-sampling is a much greater change than just changing a few audio settings. I guess any change can count as an update no matter how large or small. -charley

[soundphase]

I made a quick recording  ( with I-Pad) and the violin is nice ( i think)  , short improvisation
https://soundcloud.com/arno-van-denderen/violin-movie-tune/s-U0oGnorTBVc?si=23b5da2a80d946369450bee08a29dae2&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

Bravo Soryt.

[Amwilburn]

Btw, the old orchestral violin 1 is still in there, under legacy strings.

And also you can change the new strings to polyphonic; totally different sound and dynamics from the old one! (again, you can compare them side by side by loading up the legacy one)

I just found the new orchestral drum kits (3 new orchestral kits *alone*, on top of the old one). The more I play with G2 the more excited I get!

Keep these interesting tidbits coming!

Mark

[GrannyRocks]

Btw, the old orchestral violin 1 is still in there, under legacy strings.

And also you can change the new strings to polyphonic; totally different sound and dynamics from the old one! (again, you can compare them side by side by loading up the legacy one)

I just found the new orchestral drum kits (3 new orchestral kits *alone*, on top of the old one). The more I play with G2 the more excited I get!

Keep these interesting tidbits coming!

Mark

If you have a minute, could you tell me: Where are the orchestral drumkits? I was looking for  timpani. And How you do turn the violin into polyphonic, and what's the difference in sound? Thanks

[Amwilburn]

Sure, after you select Orchestral 1st violin, press the Voice button (the white one with the group of 6 white lit menu buttons on the far right) and you'll see a green "mono" on screen. Tap that to turn off monophonic, to change it to polyphonic.

Under drums, the 3 new symphony kits are Symphonic Percussion, Cinematic Percussion, and industrial kit, then the original Symphony Kit is still in there as well.

Mark

[Amwilburn]

After more playing around, I've discovered even in polyphonic mode, the new Orchestral Violin1 produces S.Art glides, but not often (so that it's not artificially constantly happening).

Turns out the new S.Art OrchestralCello behaves the same way (glides even if you set it to poly)

here's where it gets a bit crazy: unlike the Orchestral Violin previously mentioned, the old version is *not* in the legacy folder. I had to copy the vce from the G1 -- remember, it doesn't contain samples but does contain midi instructions to find the voice *if* the voice is present on the new G2. It *is*, and *boy* is it different!! If you set the new one to poly mode, not only does the new Orchestral Cello have built in portamento glides whereas the old one doesn't, but there is *much* more dynamic range.... old one sounds lifeless and "canned" by comparison.

Maybe Yamaha meant it when they said they resampled most the voices... the 2 are drastically different; the fact that they use the same name and don't include the old one in legacy (can only access via G1 vce) means on paper, it looks like they used the same sample. They clearly do not. (and yes I have the G1 next to the G2, so I confirmed the old OrchestralCello is supposed to sound that lifeless)

On the other hand, I've found *no* difference at all for anf of the S.Art 2 strings. And I've even found a downgrade: OLED for the sub display on G1 vs LCD on G2 (makes it annoying bright out the corner of my eye, even on the dimmest setting. And worse contrast) The G1 OLED has true black, the G2 does *not*. And frankly, I'd have preferred the default to be poly, not mono for the previously mentioned Orchestral violins & cello.

Differences can be in the details.

Until you play a G2, its just specs.

*This* is turning out to be more significant than I thought!

Mark

[pjd]

Hi Mark --

I'm getting more and more confused. Specifically, which Genos1 voice was reprogrammed/replaced? MSB/LSB/PC?

If it's the one that I'm thinking of, yep, that is a good thing since the original was kind of lackluster when compared to MODX.

It annoys the &^%$^ out of me that Yamaha doesn't publish a waveform list for Genos/PSR. Having a published list for Montage/ MODX, etc. makes it soooooooo much easier to compare synth generations.

Have fun, dude -- pj

[Amwilburn]

Hi Mark --

I'm getting more and more confused. Specifically, which Genos1 voice was reprogrammed/replaced? MSB/LSB/PC?

If it's the one that I'm thinking of, yep, that is a good thing since the original was kind of lackluster when compared to MODX.

It annoys the &^%$^ out of me that Yamaha doesn't publish a waveform list for Genos/PSR. Having a published list for Montage/ MODX, etc. makes it soooooooo much easier to compare synth generations.

Have fun, dude -- pj

8-33-47 is the old OrchestralCello on G1, the new one on G2 is the *same* MSB-LSB-PC, but completely different sounds (and oddly you can still call up the old sound via vce, no msb-lsb numbers pop up at that point, even with "Show Numbers" on)

Same with the Orchviolin1, same MSB-LSB-PC, but *completely* different sounds!

Mark

[overover]

Hi Mark and pj,

I just compared the G1 and G2 "Orchestral1stViolin" voice files   ("Orchestral1stViolin.T249.sar") in MixMaster:

As can be seen from the data lists, both use the same voice number 8-33-44 (0-based PC 43). But the controllers and Sy*** events of the two files are very different.

In my opinion, the "Orchestral1stViolin" loaded on G2 via the G1 voice file should also use the new G2 multisample. The difference in sound may be because the G1 Voice file calls up the "old" G1 EQ and Effect parameters.

You would have to compare the sound of this voice played directly on the G1 with the sound played on G2, called up via the G1 voice file. I suspect that these sounds are NOT identical.


P.S.
Actually, you shouldn't worry so much about Sound details. Basically, it's enough to say that the G2's voices are better in many cases, or at least as good as the G1.


Best regards,
Chris

[Amwilburn]

Oh I have the G1 next to the G2; yes i can clearly hear these sounds are different (some are the same) but funny enough, calling the g1 vce file up on the g2? Identical to the G1's sound.

Suggests to me they kept the old version in there as well (but under a new MSB/LSB, as the imported numbers don't show up). A hidden voice, in the same way the GM/XG voices are in both G1 and G2, but hidden unless you have the appropriate voice files.

Incidentally, even the CVP809 has hidden voices! Surprised the heck out of me when I took the Genos C7, loaded up the vce, and lo and behold, it showed a preset folder labelled "Hidden" with about 7 or 8 voices in it, this was 1 of them (the same thing doesn't happen with the 909, so I guess they're not *quite* as identical as I'd though)

Luckily for me, it's my *job* to dig through all these nuances! Incidentally, when the G1 came out, the other keyboard manager turned to me and asked "What's the difference? It seems 99% the same to the Tyros 5". After I told him about the kino strings, new plucked spicatto basses, new wave cycling drums, and the much improved piano (yes the T5 piano is still in the Genos 1 & 2 under legacy, it sounds a *lot* different) he paused, looked at me and said "So... it's better?"

There is such a thing as too much detail & analysis :p
Luckily not to me or pjd!


Cheers,
Mark

[pjd]

Thanks, Chris.

It's going to be a while before I can pursue the "science" of this thing and perform systematic experiments (if ever!)

Plus, I blew my money out on a CSP-170, which was finally delivered on Friday after a 2 month wait.      BTW, a few of the new styles (like "FunkyShuffle") are on the CSP, minus Revo/Ambi.

I'm willing and curious to crawl through the VCE files. [Hint, hint] It's for educational purposes only. 

Take care and thanks for answering all of our questions -- pj

[pjd]

Incidentally, even the CVP809 has hidden voices! Surprised the heck out of me when I took the Genos C7, loaded up the vce, and lo and behold, it showed a preset folder labelled "Hidden" with about 7 or 8 voices in it, this was 1 of them (the same thing doesn't happen with the 909, so I guess they're not *quite* as identical as I'd though)

I gotta go cook dinner, but!

This is nuts. I recently discovered the "Style Voices" directory on G1 which as some voices used in styles and not documented in the Data List file. The heck? Is this the floobydust left over after they freeze sound and style development? 

OK, I gotta cook -- pj

[Amwilburn]

I gotta go cook dinner, but!

This is nuts. I recently discovered the "Style Voices" directory on G1 which as some voices used in styles and not documented in the Data List file. The heck? Is this the floobydust left over after they freeze sound and style development? 

OK, I gotta cook -- pj

Exactly this! I only recently discovered this as well! (same as when I found out about the hidden CVP voices)

Mark

[overover]

Hi Mark and pj,

When you search the Voice List in the Tyros4 Data List for the term "style" repeatedly, you will find 15 S.Art2 voices whose names end with "...Style" (all in the Legacy Voice folder). These voices are probably modified from the corresponding S.Art2 Panel voices to make them more suitable for Styles. I think these are the voices that are in this hidden "Style Voices" folder on G2 (and probably also on G1 and Tyros5). 


Best regards,
Chris

[pjd]

Thanks for the VCE files, Mark.

I took a quick look. Both G1 and G2 invoke the same internal voice number: 8/33/43.

As Chris mentioned, there are differences. I will post a file with annotated dumps. There are Sy*** messages in the G2 version which baffled the dumper, so I will have to dive in with Sonar.

Notable differences so far: The G1 version has a bass roll off. G2 is EQ'ed flat. The G1 default DSP effect is a Hall reverb. The G2 default DSP effect is Tempo Delay. The portamento time values are different -- G1: 0, G2: 12. The G2 reverb send value is higher -- G1: 40  G2: 60.

As Goldilocks might say, "Somebody has been at my porridge!"

Of course, we have no idea what has changed below the VCE level (i.e., waveforms).

Time for Thursday Night Football -- pj

[pjd]

Holy smokes! Genos2 has several new XG multi-part parameters for controlling voices, including portamento:

0A nn 04 Velocity to Portamento Time Velocity Sensitivity
0A nn 05 Velocity to Portamento Time Reference Velocity
0A nn 06 Velocity Used for Crossfade Portamento
0A nn 07 Min. Portamento Time

0A nn 08 Velocity Limit Low
0A nn 09 Velocity Limit High
0A nn 0A Velocity Limit for Dynamics Low
0A nn 0B Velocity Limit for Dynamics High
0A nn 0C Velocity Limit for Portamento Time Low
0A nn 0D Velocity Limit for Portamento Time High 

0A nn 50 Fast Playing Portamento Time Threshold
0A nn 51 Fast Playing Portamento Portamento Time

0A nn 60 Element Volume Control

"nn" is the part number. These parameters do not appear in the Genos1 MIDI documentation.

Big question in my mind: Are these additions to the software synthesis or additions to the actual hardware? If hardware, did Yamaha re-spin the SWP70 silicon? (And a new IC identifier?)

Wow -- pj

[pjd]

If you want to compare the Genos1 VCE against the Genos2 VCE, the linked TXT file contains dumps of both VCE files:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/OrchViolins_G1_vs_G2.txt

Aside from the differences that I mentioned earlier, you'll see the new Sy*** XG portamento messages in the Genos2 dump.

Have fun -- pj

[pjd]

I took a quick look at the PSR-A5000 Data List PDF. The A5000 has the same extended XG portamento parameters.

[soundphase]

Hello all,

I just share with you a combination for and from orchestral1stViolin.

I put it in "Poly". the global volume is lower. But I hope you will like. (Perhaps my ears or my speakers are not the same as yours)

A "3Band EQ" (Insertion effect EQ&Comp Fourth page 4/4) configuration first:
- EQ Low gain 2db
- EQ Mid Frequency 4Khz
- EQ Mid gain -8db
- EQ Mid Width 2.4
- EQ High Gain -4db
- EQ Low frequency 800Hz
- EQ High Frequency 900Hz
- Input mode stereo

I save it in a user bank (called "solo violon")

+ Voice Edit
Common1:
volume: 127
Depth: 45
Offset: 64
Low: 30
High 86

Common2:
Mono/Poly: Poly
Portamento time: 7

Controller (After touch)
Filter: 64
Amplitude: 69

Sound:
Cutoff: 0
Resonnance: -64

Attack:0
Decay:0
Release:16

Effect:
Type: solo violon (just saved before)

EQ (High)
Frequency: 5kHz
Gain: -1db

EQ (low)
Frequency: 800Hz
Gain: -7db