MidiToStyle: Fats Domino experiment

[BogdanH]

I mentioned before that I find MidiToStyle as a nice to have tool, with many (incl. CASM) settings from StyleCreator... and most important, it works.
I create styles in StyleCreator and we know it's kinda slow process. There are many midi files available and some of them are probably good enough to be used for creating styles. So I asked myself, maybe I should stop wasting time with StyleCreator and start using MidiToStyle instead... at least for simple styles that I wish to have. I mean, if midi file is there, why not, right?

And so I decided to make a test. I created very simple style in StyleCreator (C key, tempo 80, 1bar measure, piano voice). Actually it's very useful style which can be used as basis for many popular songs -that's why name "Fats Domino experiment".
I played a song with that style and recorded it as midi and then copied midi to PC, where I removed channels that are irrelevant for this experiment. So I ended with midi which only contains piano sequence for style and sax for melody playing. Then I copied resulting midi back to keyboard and recorded an audio file which contains only midi playing -just to make sure that midi is working & sounding properly.

You can download both files (midi and mp3) here:
FatsDomino mid & mp3
(click Download on upper left corner)

The challenge for you: can you to create a style by using that midi with MidiToStyle? Again, it's only a simple piano rhythm that needs to be converted.. which shouldn't be a problem... 

Bogdan

[Des O]

Are you talking about Yamaha Midi song to Style? Is there a catch? How many variations? By the sound of it just intro and A variation. Also what will it prove?

[BogdanH]

hello Des,
If you listen to mp3 (or midi file) then you can hear, that there's only one variation and one voice (because I wanted it to be simple).

Now, if there's a catch? Well, not really... just imagine you downloaded midi from internet, you liked the rhythm and you wish to make a style from it.
On the other hand, there's a little catch.. which is the reason why I made a post. Although it's very simple piano rhythm, I can't imagine someone can create a style by using MidiToStyle (a style, where piano plays the same notes as in midi). That is, I will be very impressed if someone proves that I'm wrong 

PS: yes, I'm talking about newest Yamaha Midi Song To Style tool.

Bogdan

[Des O]

hello Des,
If you listen to mp3 (or midi file) then you can hear, that there's only one variation and one voice (because I wanted it to be simple).

Now, if there's a catch? Well, not really... just imagine you downloaded midi from internet, you liked the rhythm and you wish to make a style from it.
On the other hand, there's a little catch.. which is the reason why I made a post. Although it's very simple piano rhythm, I can't imagine someone can create a style by using MidiToStyle (a style, where piano plays the same notes as in midi). That is, I will be very impressed if someone proves that I'm wrong 

PS: yes, I'm talking about newest Yamaha Midi Song To Style tool.

Bogdan

Hi Bogden

Very clever indeed, the high note! It seem like the high limit. I can get the chord variation but the last note is low not high. My thinking is this will need change by adjusting the note limits or on some midi software. I can get a style but note perfect not for the last note on each bar.

[Des O]

Not far off at the moment, not perfect but nearly. Will try again later.
The original is milisecs out to the bar so not quantized? Cannot adjust outside preset bars, I think the whole track is the same so cannot get time right. Got the high note now but not perfect yet.

Des

[BogdanH]

hi Des,
First, thank you for showing interest!
Your observation is correct..it sound like the problem is related to high note limit -but that's only first impression and problem can't be solved by setting high (or low) note limit. Btw. in style that I created first (so I could record midi file), I didn't make any high/low note limits.

Of course I know where the problem is and that's also the reason why I created this particular (and popular!) rhythm pattern -because I knew that MidiToStyle can't deliver correct result. Yes, it's probably doable with some midi editor (if we know what to look at in piano sequence).. but that would take a LOT of time -is much easier and quicker to create that pattern on keyboard in StyleCreator.

No, it's not my intention to bash MidiToStyle tool which (I repeat) can be useful. I'm only pointing out, that MidiToStyle is not some almighty magic tool that can be used as replacement for StyleCreator.

PS. Just saw your last post: yes, piano is quantized.
PPS: About piano sequence "out of the bar". When we record midi song, bar starts at the time when first note starts. In this case that's sax and not piano and that's the reason why piano sequence isn't inside bar boundary (which is additional thing that MidiToStyle can't handle). But even if piano sequence would start at beginning of the bar, the result would still be wrong.

Bogdan

[porterma]

Hi BogdanH
Thanks for  sharing your little "experiment" with us.
Very interesting.
I wonder if you would mind also sharing the actual "style" that you created as well.
Thanks,

Mark

[Des O]

hi Des,
First, thank you for showing interest!
Your observation is correct..it sound like the problem is related to high note limit -but that's only first impression and problem can't be solved by setting high (or low) note limit. Btw. in style that I created first (so I could record midi file), I didn't make any high/low note limits.

Of course I know where the problem is and that's also the reason why I created this particular (and popular!) rhythm pattern -because I knew that MidiToStyle can't deliver correct result. Yes, it's probably doable with some midi editor (if we know what to look at in piano sequence).. but that would take a LOT of time -is much easier and quicker to create that pattern on keyboard in StyleCreator.

No, it's not my intention to bash MidiToStyle tool which (I repeat) can be useful. I'm only pointing out, that MidiToStyle is not some almighty magic tool that can be used as replacement for StyleCreator.

PS. Just saw your last post: yes, piano is quantized.
PPS: About piano sequence "out of the bar". When we record midi song, bar starts at the time when first note starts. In this case that's sax and not piano and that's the reason why piano sequence isn't inside bar boundary (which is additional thing that MidiToStyle can't handle). But even if piano sequence would start at beginning of the bar, the result would still be wrong.

Bogdan

As you say everything has its limitations, it can be done but yes time consuming, I've seen Caspertutorsyth do a correction on a file that a note is out, I'm going to try a little experiment with it later to seen if it can be simply corrected just out of curiosity.

Des

[BogdanH]

Hello Mark,
I can share the style, although you'd make me happier if you would try to create it by yourself.. you can't imagine how good it feels when you can say "Yes! I made it myself!"
Anyway, I won't share it right now, because that would spoil the secret why MidiToStyle can't do it in this particular case.

For those who know how to create a style, I recommend to open this midi with some midi "visualizer" (i.e. Synthesia, PianoFromAbove or SeeMusic), where you can see what keys are being pressed for piano -that way it's much easier to realize what the problem is.

@Des
See about "visualizer" above and if you try with it, then you will probably realize that you would waste time by trying to correct midi file.

Bogdan

[BogdanH]

Clarification
Maybe some think that I have thrown this midi as a bait, just so I can play secret games... but truth is far from that: I only wish to encourage everyone to start creating styles with StyleCreator and not fully rely on MidiToStyle.

Bogdan

[BogdanH]

I realize that this topic didn't catch much attention... Anyway, I have changed my mind about MidiSongToStyle application.

In my first post I said it's a "nice to have" tool, mainly because I wanted to like it and use it occasionally (where possible). But after few more experiments I realize it's totally useless. Not only style many times doesn't sound even close as it should, the structure of the style (the content) is buggy -which again, gives unpredictable sounding results.
Some will say that they manage to get good enough styles by using MidiToStyle, so be it. But those that I have heard so far sound like it would come from 150€ Casio.

Is ok, I learned something.. case closed 

Bogdan

[ton37]

Thnx. Bogdan for examining this app and your feedback, I appreciate. Now you (and we) know: up to next challenge 

[DrakeM]

This was a nice read on the subject. I started using the new Midi to Style program but have been side tracked by converting G2 styles to use in my S950.

The issue of the last note needing to be higher can be fixed using the StyleCreator. Use the EDIT tab and rise the last note an octave. I have used this method several times when creating my own guitar picking patterns that I use in my custom styles. I have in one case even sang the picking pattern while just hitting the C note to get the timing correct. Then I used the EDIT mode to change all the C notes to the correct picking pattern notes.

I have noticed that all the channels of a style can be edit of a style that is made by the new Midi to Style program. This should mean you can take a G2 style that contains a Doo Woop (or other voice synth) and raise the notes higher and then revoice them with a regular non voice, horn or string and use them in the older keyboards.

There is so many new things to try and learn with this new Genos 2 and the Midi to Style release. 

[BogdanH]

hi Drake,

This was a nice read on the subject...

-I'm glad you found it interesting 

The issue of the last note needing to be higher can be fixed using the StyleCreator.  Use the EDIT tab and rise the last note an octave..

Are you speaking in general, or did you actually managed to create a correct sounding style from my midi by using MidiToStyle?

... There is so many new things to try and learn...

-I sure agree on that 

Greetings,
Bogdan

[Des O]

I've spent some time with it, overall I get better result with it than any other I have tried, I would say you can and do get better result if you put the time in and understand what's required to adjust, and alter channels. My workflow is now
Psrutti first, Mega enhance, Mixmaster any changes required, then Midi song to style spending time on creating the required result for each section and discovering what's possible and what's not. maybe even delete useless channels that confuse the AI in Midi 2 Style.

[Des O]

P.S. My frustration came when I was getting great results and then trying everything too fast, too quick. I did not work out to well but a good original midi is even better.

[DrakeM]

Are you speaking in general, or did you actually managed to create a correct sounding style from my midi by using MidiToStyle?

I was just offering a method to fix the issue. I have not picked back up using the Midi to Style since started converting the G2 styles.

I was working on converting a midi for the country song "I Like It, I Love It" by Tim McGraw. I have the intro, ending, verse and chorus with no issue. I need the fill ins and break which I think I will just use from other Yamaha country styles (I think that would be easier and faster). Then I still need to balance the whole this out. But that is all on hold for now. It's the style conversions I am working on (one thing at a time).

[Jørgen]

Hi
Just to avoid any confusion:

My  program for MIDI file to style file conversion was named "midi2style" back in may 2002. (Yes, almost 22 years ago) And you will find it here: http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software/midi2style/index.htm

Yamaha's new tool is named "Midi Song To Style".

Regards
Jørgen

[BogdanH]

hello Jørgen,
Thank you for clarifying about software name similarity, which is important because it could lead to wrong conclusions!

Regards,
Bogdan

[Des O]

We could abbreviate to YMSS Yamaha Midi Song to Style.

[pjd]

This was a nice read on the subject. I started using the new Midi to Style program but have been side tracked by converting G2 styles to use in my S950.

There is so many new things to try and learn with this new Genos 2 and the Midi to Style release. 

Thanks for your post, Drake! I'm down the same rat hole except it's converting G2 R&B styles to G1.

Eventually, I'll circle around to the MIDI Song to Style program, again. Having too much fun...

All the best -- pj