Do You Know of Another Keyboard with the Genos Sounds?

[GrannyRocks]

Hi Everyone,

I love my Genos2, but I am still struggling with the keyboard. The FSX action causes me pain. (I have many health conditions which have made playing keyboards very challenging.)  I'm wondering if the Montage mx8 has the same sounds as the Genos. I know it has a different action, but I don't know if that would be any good. Most weighted actions are just too stiff, but I haven't tried the new GEX action. But what about the sounds? Or do you know of any other keyboard that has the beautiful, natural acoustic instruments that G2 has? I have tried many keyboards and many brands, and some have better actions, but none have the sounds I'm looking for, including a good piano. I haven't made a decision about returning my Genos yet, but I'm thinking about it, even though I love it. I have tried the Kong pa5x and I don't care for the sounds, and I already have a Roland Fantom 08, but it doesn't have the beautiful acoustic sounds either. I know this is a matter of taste, and I am not denigrating any other keyboard, but this is what I'm looking for. Thanks, a pretty sad Beth

[ton37]

Maybe an option? Choose an 88-key (Midi) keyboard whose keybed you like and feels confortable playing. Connect it to the Genos2 so that you can use its sounds. (e.g. Master and Slave connection) In some time there will also be a Yamaha piano model that incorporates the Genos sounds. But that could take a few months.
I'm not a pianist and less experience in Master-Slave connection, but have read there are possibilities. So others will probably add some input to discuss different options. 

[GrannyRocks]

Thanks for the suggestion, but -- and it's probably me -- I could never really make it work. Every time I needed to change registrations or one touch settings or select a different voice from the four, I ended up having to stretch in some insane way to hit the button. Also, I couldn't control the relative levels. I even tried several controllers. The one with the best keybed is the  Roland PHA4, which is in their AKmkII controller, but there weren't enough controls -- the faders were way on the left (very uncomfortable) and I just couldn't get the MIDI to work. I returned them all and prayer for a new Genos. haha. with a better keybed for me. boohoo. But, again, thank you.

[ton37]

Too bad for you, but respect that you at least tried and investigated. Hopefully there will be a solution that works for you. 

[GrannyRocks]

I hope so. I don't give up easily. It took many years before I discovered the Roland PhA4 keybed, which I have in my Fantom and the action in the Casio PX s-6000. So at least I can gig, but I don't have the sounds I'm looking for. I have literally bought, returned and sold I don't know how many keyboards. I wish there were a store where I could just go and check them out. We don't have that here on the West Coast of the US. Wish we did. Thanks again.

[Amwilburn]

Unfortunately, despite not having a G2 yet, I'm pretty sure the Montage M doesn't share the same sound library (the original Montage and Genos didn't either. In fact, other than the superb piano & drums on the Montage, nearly all of the sound library actually came from T4); but there might be a *lot* of overlap. And it's likely the Montage M will still have  a better piano than G2

Your comment about the keys fascinates me though; because the unweighted keys on the Montage are the same FSX as on the Genos 1 & 2 (also why I was surprised you liked the G2 keys but not the G1). But then to say Roland's PHa4 keys are superior, those are weighted keys (and relatively slow ones at that, and a touch lighter than other weighted keys, but certainly heavier than FSX semi-weighted).

Which to me is contradictory: the PHA4 keys are slower and heavier then FSX, and the weighted keys on the Montage are similar, but even heavier, but a touch quicker key speed.

But it sounds to me you want weighted keys, not semiweighted? You should try a CVP809/909. Wonderful wooden keys (for the white keys, black are still plastic) and an absolutely fantastic speaker system, but roughly the same sound library as G1, not G2. But the keys are fully weighted (heavier than the Fantom08 keys, but also significantly quicker).

If you're looking for 'lighter' feeling fully weighted keys, the Modx8/8+ should work (similar to the lighter Fantom08 keys). There's also a Korg Kronos2-88 with semiweighted keys (they call the Light Action) but as those have been replaced by the Nautilus, I'd try one sooner than later as they're being phased out.

Ideally, your local music store should have all these key actions for you to try out. Heck, I don't care for the Nord Fatar weighted keys my self (too bouncy) but the nature of their lighter, bouncier key touch might be right up your alley. The Casio PSX5000/6000/7000 also have superb wooden (well wood -resin hybrid) weighted keys that are slightly lighter to the touch as well.

Mark

[GrannyRocks]

Thanks for your thoughts and opinions on the sounds. I have the Casio px s6000, and I can really play it, even though the keys are short, which is difficult. That is the best action for me. But it doesn't have the sounds. (I can live without the arranger.) The Roland PhA4 is my second favorite action, which I have on my Fantom 08, but I don't care for the Roland sound, especially in the solo instruments. Nevertheless, I'm keeping it for now. I can gig with it, and I love using the pads for backing tracks, but I'm not getting the music, the sound, I crave. Synth actions are painful, probably because they have shallow keys, and then you hit a hard bed. Semi-weighted are just as bad or wrose.  I don't like the action in the G2 or the G1, but I found the G2 a little easier to control for expression, but maybe because I changed the fixed velocity to almost nothing, so it's more controllable. Or maybe it's just a newer keybed and a little stiffer. (I have experimented with the keytouch, but it just doesn't compare to a really good piano with a light action, which is what I have.) But it's hard to play the Genos really expressively. But I could learn to live with that, because I can control it a bit, except that the shallow keybed and hard bottom are causing a lot of muscle spasms in my arms, shoulders and upper back. The weighted actions are supposed to be like an acoustic piano, but they aren't. I can play a lot of pianos, because they have lighter actions. The digital keyboards generally are too heavy. I even tried a Clavinova 809 and had to sell it. I love the Dexibell pianos but the Fatar keybeds are heavy and sluggish. I have tried tons of keyboards with no success. But then the sounds are critical too. I'm going to go through your message again and see what I can glean, but I really want those Genos acoustic instruments. I just love them. That's disappointing about the Montage. I was going to try the new DEX keyboard, but I'm skeptical that it will work, and if I can't get the sounds, there's no point anyway. Thanks. I'm not trying to be difficult, but I am really severely disabled. If you read one of my posts, I had to stop playing the piano altogether at the age of 15, but at 73, I was guided to buy an acoustic grand and to only improvise, and by the grace of God, I can play. When I stick to the piano and don't play too long, I can survive enjoy the glory of making music. But I really enjoy other instruments and the ability to impact consciousness through different sounds.

[GrannyRocks]

Unfortunately, despite not having a G2 yet, I'm pretty sure the Montage M doesn't share the same sound library (the original Montage and Genos didn't either. In fact, other than the superb piano & drums on the Montage, nearly all of the sound library actually came from T4); but there might be a *lot* of overlap. And it's likely the Montage M will still have  a better piano than G2

Your comment about the keys fascinates me though; because the unweighted keys on the Montage are the same FSX as on the Genos 1 & 2 (also why I was surprised you liked the G2 keys but not the G1). But then to say Roland's PHa4 keys are superior, those are weighted keys (and relatively slow ones at that, and a touch lighter than other weighted keys, but certainly heavier than FSX semi-weighted).

Which to me is contradictory: the PHA4 keys are slower and heavier then FSX, and the weighted keys on the Montage are similar, but even heavier, but a touch quicker key speed.

But it sounds to me you want weighted keys, not semiweighted? You should try a CVP809/909. Wonderful wooden keys (for the white keys, black are still plastic) and an absolutely fantastic speaker system, but roughly the same sound library as G1, not G2. But the keys are fully weighted (heavier than the Fantom08 keys, but also significantly quicker).

If you're looking for 'lighter' feeling fully weighted keys, the Modx8/8+ should work (similar to the lighter Fantom08 keys). There's also a Korg Kronos2-88 with semiweighted keys (they call the Light Action) but as those have been replaced by the Nautilus, I'd try one sooner than later as they're being phased out.

Ideally, your local music store should have all these key actions for you to try out. Heck, I don't care for the Nord Fatar weighted keys my self (too bouncy) but the nature of their lighter, bouncier key touch might be right up your alley. The Casio PSX5000/6000/7000 also have superb wooden (well wood -resin hybrid) weighted keys that are slightly lighter to the touch as well.

Mark

Hi Mark,

A PS. You mention the Modx8 as having a lighter weighted action -- like the Fantom 08? Does have Genos-like sounds? And the Korg Kronos you mentioned. You said it has a semi-weighted action -- so it is still using springs, like a synth? I tried the PA5x semi-weighted action, but couldn't play it. Thanks.

[Amwilburn]

The Modx has the same sound library as the original Montage; while not a Genos, a *lot* of the sounds are there from T4/T5, and the piano is Superior to even the Genos (and probably the G2). That should be a good stop gap; at least the instrument sounds are in the same ballpark

The CasioPXS6000 is great; and there's a very strange little feature (that appears to be undocumented) but even though this *shouldn't* work? You can take a USB B to B cable (you won't find those in stores, you'll probably have to order one from Amazon) and lo and behold, you *can* control a Yamaha arranger with it.

It's *not* supposed to work; I had a customer who wanted an 88 stage piano to control his PSRsx900, and I told him that only those with 5 pin midi out are guaranteed to work, but he purchased the B to B cable anyway, and we tried a bunch in the shop... and shockingly it was a PXS that worked.

Don't put the PXs6000 in front of the Genos2, instead, put them on a tiltable 2 tier stand (like a Quiklok) so that the Casio is slightly in front of the G2, and the G2 is tilted down towards you so that the front of the Genos touches the top of the PXS6000 right behind where the keys end

*that* should work for you, if you don't want to go down to a MODX8/Modx8+ (which is also a fine instrument!)

Yes the Kronos2 88 lightweighted keys are semi weighted, not weighted. But the regular Nautilus/Kronos 2 keys that are fully weighted, are very similar keys to the MOntage, so I suspect those won't work (100% weighted, medium key speed)


Mark

[GrannyRocks]

Help me understand this. I looked at some two-tiered stand, and the second tier was way too high for me to reach. Can you help direct me to the right option. Possibly I could keep the Casio just a little lower, which I can manage, if I don't have to stretch my arms up too much to the Genos. Possible. Since your last message, I've been looking at the Nautilus. I would have to test the keybed, but you think it's heavier than the PHA4. I have played the PhA 50 in the RD 2000, and I found it heavy. Thanks for following up with all this.

[GrannyRocks]

Mark,

Also, does the Modx 8x have the acoustic sounds, like the sax and flugelhorn? It looks like it has a synth engine. Please clarify. Thanks.

[RBK]

Try the Baby Brother, the PSR-SX900.  You might find that just right.

[GrannyRocks]

Thanks, but I believe it has only 61 keys, which are too few for me as a pianist, and it has the same action, doesn't it? Let me know if I am mistaken.

[soundphase]

I didn't fully understand your issues.

It's also possible to program registrations first, then a sequence of registrations, and use a pedal to switch registrations instead of pushing manually a button (with synchronization constraint) during the song

If it can help....

[GrannyRocks]

I didn't fully understand your issues.

It's also possible to program registrations first, then a sequence of registrations, and use a pedal to switch registrations instead of pushing manually a button (with synchronization constraint) during the song

If it can help....

Thanks. Are you talking about using a controller? How do adjust the relative sounds during performing or any of the other buttons. Interesting idea about using pedals for registrations, which I do use, but how many pedals would I need? If you're not talking about using a controller, I don't understand your suggestion. I already use registrations, but that doesn't change the keybed. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you.

[konaboy32]

the g2 action is relatively light and soft.
you don't describe your condition but any weighted action will require more force and strength to play.
you will not find any controller or synth with a better light action keybed apart from perhaps Fantom 6.  There is no other instrument with the same sounds as g2.
closest will be montage 6 ot 7, but has same action as g2 so no benefit for you.

[tyrosman]

Unfortunately, despite not having a G2 yet, I'm pretty sure the Montage M doesn't share the same sound library (the original Montage and Genos didn't either. In fact, other than the superb piano & drums on the Montage, nearly all of the sound library actually came from T4); but there might be a *lot* of overlap. And it's likely the Montage M will still have  a better piano than G2

Your comment about the keys fascinates me though; because the unweighted keys on the Montage are the same FSX as on the Genos 1 & 2 (also why I was surprised you liked the G2 keys but not the G1). But then to say Roland's PHa4 keys are superior, those are weighted keys (and relatively slow ones at that, and a touch lighter than other weighted keys, but certainly heavier than FSX semi-weighted).

Which to me is contradictory: the PHA4 keys are slower and heavier then FSX, and the weighted keys on the Montage are similar, but even heavier, but a touch quicker key speed.

But it sounds to me you want weighted keys, not semiweighted? You should try a CVP809/909. Wonderful wooden keys (for the white keys, black are still plastic) and an absolutely fantastic speaker system, but roughly the same sound library as G1, not G2. But the keys are fully weighted (heavier than the Fantom08 keys, but also significantly quicker).

If you're looking for 'lighter' feeling fully weighted keys, the Modx8/8+ should work (similar to the lighter Fantom08 keys). There's also a Korg Kronos2-88 with semiweighted keys (they call the Light Action) but as those have been replaced by the Nautilus, I'd try one sooner than later as they're being phased out.

Ideally, your local music store should have all these key actions for you to try out. Heck, I don't care for the Nord Fatar weighted keys my self (too bouncy) but the nature of their lighter, bouncier key touch might be right up your alley. The Casio PSX5000/6000/7000 also have superb wooden (well wood -resin hybrid) weighted keys that are slightly lighter to the touch as well.

Mark

i Hope you get your Genos 2 soon my friend it is fantastic

[overover]

Hi Beth,

If you have a relatively light touch and are having trouble achieving higher volumes, I recommend the following: Press "MENU > Keyboard" and change the Initial Touch Curve from the default setting "Normal" to "Easy 2". This produces higher volume with moderate playing strength and is easy to control.

It is also possible to set the initial touch behavior for individual voices in "Voice Edit" as desired (with the parameters "Touch Sensivity" > "Depth" and "Offset").

I also recommend that you primarily play with (self-created) Registrations (e.g. one Bank with several registrations for each song to be played). Then you don't need to press the Part On/Off and OTS buttons while playing.

You can also control the changes in the style sections (Intro, Main Variations, Fill-ins/Break, Ending) with the registrations.

If you use the "Registration Sequence" function, you can use ONE pedal (foot switch) to switch through the registrations one after the other or in a pre-programmed, arbitrary order.


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris

[GrannyRocks]

Hi Beth,

If you have a relatively light touch and are having trouble achieving higher volumes, I recommend the following: Press "MENU > Keyboard" and change the Initial Touch Curve from the default setting "Normal" to "Easy 2". This produces higher volume with moderate playing strength and is easy to control.

It is also possible to set the initial touch behavior for individual voices in "Voice Edit" as desired (with the parameters "Touch Sensivity" > "Depth" and "Offset").

I also recommend that you primarily play with (self-created) Registrations (e.g. one Bank with several registrations for each song to be played). Then you don't need to press the Part On/Off and OTS buttons while playing.

You can also control the changes in the style sections (Intro, Main Variations, Fill-ins/Break, Ending) with the registrations.

If you use the "Registration Sequence" function, you can use ONE pedal (foot switch) to switch through the registrations one after the other or in a pre-programmed, arbitrary order.


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris

This is helpful, Chris. I don't have trouble gaining volume. It is the keybed itself that causes the pain. I'm trying to create registrations, but I feel like a total idiot. Every time I hit a registration button, it comes out different. For example, I try to turn off the ACIM and start buttons for the song with a particular style, but then I go back, and those buttons are on again, even though I believe I have asked the memory to keep them off. Also, I try to input a style for that registration, and I'm obviously not doing that right because it returns to Throwback whatever. I am going to have to go back and reread everything. I like the style to come on only when I want it, because mostly I need to play freely and the ACIM in particular will go nuts when I play runs in the left hand. haha. The idea of using a pedal as a foot switch is intriguing. Can I use any foot pedal but just plug it in and program it to switch registrations? I do have an extra pedal and that could help. That could really give my arms a break.

Don't give up, Beth. If there's no alternative to the Genos, you have to make it work. Right?

[Amwilburn]

Mark,

Also, does the Modx 8x have the acoustic sounds, like the sax and flugelhorn? It looks like it has a synth engine. Please clarify. Thanks.

THe MODx8 has all the acoustic sounds from Tyros 4 (and all the T4 sounds went into the Genos 1 and 2 legacy sounds) so yes, it has a synth engine and acoustic sounds. e.g. The Seattle Strings, renamed to Real Strings, are the same exact sample.

As for the stand, this is the type I'm referring to: you can tilt the upper keyboard down so there's *no* gap.

https://www.tomleemusic.ca/quik-lok-ql642bk-two-tier-double-braced-x-stand-132021

Mark

[GrannyRocks]

the g2 action is relatively light and soft.
you don't describe your condition but any weighted action will require more force and strength to play.
you will not find any controller or synth with a better light action keybed apart from perhaps Fantom 6.  There is no other instrument with the same sounds as g2.
closest will be montage 6 ot 7, but has same action as g2 so no benefit for you.

I thought I had answered this already, but I don't see it. The g2 action is shallow and has a hard landing. That causes pain. When I play a piano with a light action, I have way less trouble. I use the weight of my arms and easily run my fingers up and down the keyboard. It's much more cushioned. As I mentioned early, I have found two weighted actions that work for me, but they are on the wrong keyboards for the sound. I have NOT had a chance to try the new DEX action on the Montage M8x and there's nowhere to try it. Thanks.

[GrannyRocks]

THe MODx8 has all the acoustic sounds from Tyros 4 (and all the T4 sounds went into the Genos 1 and 2 legacy sounds) so yes, it has a synth engine and acoustic sounds. e.g. The Seattle Strings, renamed to Real Strings, are the same exact sample.

As for the stand, this is the type I'm referring to: you can tilt the upper keyboard down so there's *no* gap.

https://www.tomleemusic.ca/quik-lok-ql642bk-two-tier-double-braced-x-stand-132021

Mark

I'm going to check out this stand. 23" is the highest I can go, because of my height, but seems like you have a lot of adjustable for the top stand. The website you referenced showed a lot of customers with problems. I wonder if there is a newer version. I will check it out. Thanks for the idea.

[Amwilburn]

I'm going to check out this stand. 23" is the highest I can go, because of my height, but seems like you have a lot of adjustable for the top stand. The website you referenced showed a lot of customers with problems. I wonder if there is a newer version. I will check it out. Thanks for the idea.

Well, with all these ratcheted tiltable stands (from all brands) the issue is the gear teeth don't line up exactly from left to right; meaning you can't get the slope perfectly even (you can get close though) but it's rarely spot on a level slope. So if you have OCD, you won't be able to use this type of tiltable 2 tier stand

[pjd]

I like the style to come on only when I want it, because mostly I need to play freely and the ACIM in particular will go nuts when I play runs in the left hand. haha. The idea of using a pedal as a foot switch is intriguing. Can I use any foot pedal but just plug it in and program it to switch registrations? I do have an extra pedal and that could help.

Don't give up, Beth. If there's no alternative to the Genos, you have to make it work. Right?

Hi Beth --

Been out all afternoon delivering holiday wreaths and such. Wow, what a thread to sort through!

There is a list of functions which can be assigned to pedal and assignable buttons starting on page 139 of the Genos2 Reference Manual. Page 140 has the Registration-related assignable functions. Hope that list helps out. (At least narrows scope...)

As to temporarily disabling accompaniment (ACMP), here's a few tricks that I use. I like to play with MP3/WAV backing tracks and want to get auto-accompaniment and styles out of the way of my left hand.

First, I split the keyboard left and right at middle C. Chord Detection area is Lower. (Standard, so far.) I set the Style note to E0 which is low as it will go on the keyboard (i.e., the leftmost key). These settings are in the "Split Point & Fingering" menu.

There is still the possibility of hitting E0 while playing; it could happen. So, in the Mixer, I set the Style level to 0. That way, if style/auto-accompaniment activate, the Style sounds are completely suppressed. All of this can be saved in a Registration button.

One more work around. Yep, you can turn off auto-accompaniment (ACMP) and save it in a registration button. Unfortunately, hitting an OTS button (re)activates ACMP. This is by (annoying) design. But, good news! Setting the Style level to 0 suppresses the Style parts even if ACMP is (re)enabled!

Hope these tips help -- pj

[pjd]

Another suggestion that you'll often see on the Forum is to create a group (bank) of registration buttons solely for initial keyboard set up.

My set-up bank is called "StartUp". It has two buttons: "PlayingWithStyle" and "PlayingWithBacking". These buttons establish the keyboard settings that I like to use when playing with auto-accompaniment and with backing tracks, respectively. It took a while to get everything the way I wanted.

The set ups also form the basis for 99% of my song-specific registrations. They are like the Adam and Eve of everything else. So, once you get one or two standard set-ups, you will be able to build up and out. 

All the best -- pj

[GrannyRocks]

That's interesting. I do like the option of being able to turn it on. At least I'm not crazy. Grin. If I turn it off in one registration and save and turn it off in a second registration, it still seems to turn itself on when I go to registration 2. Have you had that experience? Thanks so much.

[Michael Trigoboff]

I briefly tried an Osmose Expressive E this past August. This synthesizer has a really unique keyboard action that could possibly work for you. It comes with its own sounds, but you could also use it as a controller for a Genos2.

It absolutely didn't work for me with my hand problems, but who knows? It might work for you...

[GrannyRocks]

Another suggestion that you'll often see on the Forum is to create a group (bank) of registration buttons solely for initial keyboard set up.

My set-up bank is called "StartUp". It has two buttons: "PlayingWithStyle" and "PlayingWithBacking". These buttons establish the keyboard settings that I like to use when playing with auto-accompaniment and with backing tracks, respectively. It took a while to get everything the way I wanted.

The set ups also form the basis for 99% of my song-specific registrations. They are like the Adam and Eve of everything else. So, once you get one or two standard set-ups, you will be able to build up and out. 

All the best -- pj

If you push the button for playing with backing, you are creating a registration with 4 voices and then you can switch to the registration of the other 4 voices, but you can't access any more than that? Or am I not understanding this? Thanks.

[Michael Trigoboff]

The Osmose keyboard action is very light, and the bottom is very soft.

[GrannyRocks]

Something to try, but I was not able to successfully use a controller with the Genos because of all the faders, knobs, etc. Maybe if I were a genius in this area, which I am not -- haha. I can use my Casio privia ps-s6000 and Roland Fantom 08 as keyboards, but then I'm still stuck. This would probably be the same.