Genos vs. SX900 buttons

[p$manK32]

My current SX900 panel buttons have a very nice quality and feel. Should I ever decide to upgrade to a Genos1 or Genos2, I wanted to get some thoughts and opinions on how the Genos buttons compare to the SX900, from those that have played both keyboards.

The new Genos2 teasers appear to show the buttons to be the same as Genos1. There are no music stores in my region of the U.S. that have a Genos1 on display to take a look. Having also had a MODX, it appears the plastic clicky sounding buttons on the MODX are similar to the Genos, although on Genos they seem larger & taller. I found these plastic style buttons not that great on MODX because they were too hard and clicky sounding for my taste, but I'm sure I could get used to this on an arranger after time. Would the Genos2 benefit by incorporating the soft rubberized SX900 button style?

Rich

[musicman01]

Dear Rich,
Indeed, as I already wrote (The First Genos 2 teaser),
the buttons of SX700/900 are of better quality than Genos, as is the intermediate panel, which has a light aluminum brushed top layer.
Genos 2 appears to be heading in the same direction from the outside.
For a device of this price, it is a shame that it is being offered again with this quality.
The quality of the keyboard bed is also substandard!

[ton37]

Pls. wait for your judgement when it is there, that is better than basicly on a assumption.. just  a few days to go 

[musicman01]

Dear Ton,
I would very much like to be wrong, but I fear the opposite!!
Knowing Yamaha, it is tough and stubborn in that area.
I've seen enough with Genos in terms of build quality.
They should have simply taken over the cabinet and buttons from (Montage), that was the least they could have done for that price,
which will be high, perhaps more than 5000k.
In the latest teaser you can see the same toy (knuck-knuck) buttons!

[ton37]

The teaser shows the shape. That says nothing about the material used. But I also have 'concerns' about what will be presented to us later. But the choice if it is OK is ours
As for the buttons of the SX900: there are (in other keyboard brands) better and more durable buttons. And it's so simple: there are plenty of (TV) remote controls (even their own brand!) that hardly show any wear after years of intensive use. They should take a closer look at that. Moreover, Yamaha has again made the mistake of placing black buttons with black lettering on a black front.

[Danny1972]

I have both keyboards and both have their advantages. I do feel though that the design on the SX900 seems more robust but not necessarily a lot better, just different. I don't mind either but if I had to choose out of the two, I suppose I would prefer the design of the SX900. However both can easily get scratched and marked. I think the plastic materials used could have been a bit more solid.

[Divemaster]

I've had Tyros and SX models

As to what future boards I will buy, Que Sera sera... But to me the excellent heavier build quality sheer 'presence', look of, and materials of the Tyros have been lost in favour of weight reduction, and somehow just don't have the look of businesslike professional grade instruments anymore.

We shall see, but I'm not holding my breath. For a ballpark figure of say £5000 I'd be expecting considerably better quality than so far released.

Black buttons with black level lines...... Give me strength.

[EileenL]

Please let's not start pulling this keyboard apart before we have even seen what it has. I have had my Genos for six years and have not had any problems and believe me it gets plenty of use. My buttons do not show any sign of wear and the casing is as it was when I got it. I also have the SX900 but would not like to see those small buttons on Genos.

[andyg]

And what I assume almost everyone on this forum does not know is just how much money it costs to produce the outer case of a keyboard like a Tyros, Genos or PSR. I do, but I can't tell you because of an NDA. What I will tell you is that if you knew, you'd probably fall off your chair!

Design of the top and bottom pieces, design and tooling for the machinery that will make the pieces, production of said machinery and then the cost of materials for the pieces. I may well have forgotten something! That's why T3 and T4 shared the same outer parts.

Same thing applies to switches, sliders, knobs and buttons. You can make minor changes without humungous costs, but major changes like new cabinets have to be thought about very carefully! So I've fully expected Genos 2 to share most of its outer parts with Genos 1.

As yet, no-one on this forum has seen the finished article and, as seems to be usual, it's already getting flak!

[MadrasGiaguari]

I had various Korg arrangers (i5, i30, Pa1X, Pa3X), all flagships, and earlier I also had various Technics (Kn800, Kn1000, Kn2000).

In both cases I needed service for faults, sometimes for not working buttons, sometimes a couple of services for the same arranger.

Presently I have had the Genos for more than 3 years. So far (and I cross the fingers...) no need for service. My Clavinova CVP309 PE was made in 2004 and is (19 years latter) still perfect. The only service I had to do was the replacement of the keyboard contacts, that is normal routine after 10 years. Never had problems with buttons.

Therefore I could not say that Korg construction is "better" than Yamaha. A metallic panel or wood side finish look better, but I did not experience more reliable build because of that.

Even my legendary Hammond L122R, costing a fortune at its time, required (expensive) service a couple of times.

They all are sophisticated toys, made by hundreds (sometimes nearly thousands) of parts, and we should accept the idea that service and maintenance is a regular factor; not an issue.

About Genos 2, or whatever it is called, I'm looking forward to learn its functions and sounds, that IMHO make the soul and identity of the new arranger. I'm quite confident that Yamaha, the world leading company for musical instruments, has designed another excellent product, as for its tradition.

Ciao,

Angelo

[mikf]

We don't know what is in the new model yet. But it's highly possible that everyone who thinks it will be groundbreaking and make the Genos 1 ancient history could be disappointed. Yamaha's principle need will be to have an updated model that remains competitive to new buyers, rather than driving all existing owners to upgrade. History shows us thru the Tyros development that upgrades by owners of the current model do not drive majority of sales, because improvements/changes are incremental for the reasons Andy states. It's people new to arrangers, people upgrading older models and lesser models. Some Genos owners will upgrade, but I don't believe that alone would justify the cost of development, retooling and launch.
Mike

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

I am 72 and i want the latest
We are a long time in stasis, so what the ****
The for letter word begins with H as i have been woked! 

[ton37]

.......

As yet, no-one on this forum has seen the finished article and, as seems to be usual, it's already getting flak!

Oh well, there are always some who criticize it in advance, everyone knows/reads that. But don't make it more dramatic than it is, right?

[Al Ram]

My current SX900 panel buttons have a very nice quality and feel. Should I ever decide to upgrade to a Genos1 or Genos2, I wanted to get some thoughts and opinions on how the Genos buttons compare to the SX900, from those that have played both keyboards.

Not familiar with the SX900, however, with Genos 1, had to replace several buttons, because the lettering faded . . . . . .
Not a functional problem but more of a cosmetic and resale problem.     I had a Yamaha tech service center replace buttons several times.   I heard other people had similar problem.

Thanks

[Amwilburn]

And what I assume almost everyone on this forum does not know is just how much money it costs to produce the outer case of a keyboard like a Tyros, Genos or PSR. I do, but I can't tell you because of an NDA. What I will tell you is that if you knew, you'd probably fall off your chair!

I do know (and I'm not specifying which keyboard models, but let me tell you it turns out it's the same for another brands' sleek 88 casing, and yes I fell off my chair).

[maartenb]

how the Genos buttons compare to the SX900

They both do the job just fine. The rubber ones are cheaper to manufacture. The button switches potentially last longer.

The Tyros buttons were indestructible, but you had to press relatively hard and they had a very noticeable click sound.

The Genos fortunately has quieter buttons and they are easier to press (less force needed) than the Tyros, but unfortunately are not as strong. However, as long as you press the bottom half only, they are fine.


Maarten

[BogdanH]

I see that some are quite easy to please and ready to forgive. Don't get me wrong, visually I do like Genos panel buttons very much: they do look classy. But fact is, symbols on them do start to fade and they do break at normal use. And that shouldn't happen on such expensive keyboard -there's just no excuse for that.

It has been said, that if buttons are pressed at the right spot and with certain feeling, then they won't break. But the thing is, it's almost impossible to pay attention to this while performing (especially if musician is standing). Many times we need to press buttons very quickly (because hands are needed on keybed) and so first row of buttons can be quite abused -it's impossible to avoid that.

Buttons on SX900/700 maybe do feel cheap on touch, but they work just perfectly: they have very good feedback on pressing and they're silent. How long will they last? As is always the case with rubber buttons, it depends on quality of graphite layer that serves as contact area. Someone I know still has famous Sinclair ZX Spectrum computer and after 40 years buttons are still working. Keep in mind that it was meant for gaming and so you can imagine buttons torture -enough said.

I don't say rubber buttons are the best solution. I just say that buttons must be of suitable quality for the purpose they serve.

Bogdan

[maartenb]

I agree, Bogdan.

With the Tyros buttons the player was trained to press in the middle and press hard. Doing that on the Genos might break the hinges of the buttons. Hey, even if not pressed they can break. Happened to me. I've never seen that happen on a Yamaha keyboard. Since Yamaha are smart people, I assume it was a design oversight or a manufacturing error.

I hope Yamaha keep statistics on the repairs and nature of the repairs, so they notice that more buttons need to be repaired than on Tyros, and that they improve the design or manufacturing material or procedure.

This might take a long time. A certain French car model, a Renault Megane, had a design in which rain water could enter the car's bottom unseen and corrode the wires. They didn't fix it until the fourth model. 15 years had passed.

I hope Yamaha is quicker and strengthened the buttons on the Genos 2.

We'll see.


Maarten

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

No matter what is said ---

There should not be wear on the print on buttons etc on a £5000 keyboard.
You expect it on a Cheap £15 logitech computer keyboard after a couple of years.
What is wrong with having the buttons like the Tyros??
Or better still, why have print on the buttons when they can be printed on the casing.
It is all down to proper design and Quality Control.

[Divemaster]

This whole thread gave me an idea!

Can anybody who has actually taken a PSR SX model apart, tell me how the 2 main round volume and control dials are secured. Are they on a splined shaft, or a clip.....
I have a colleague in the 3D printing business. He fell about laughing when I showed him the black line on black knob arrangement. So he's offered to print some knobs for me with a highlighted ridge of a different colour instead of the indented line... But he needs the knobs in his workship to do the exact laser produced calculations.

Anyone? Please... Only if you KNOW for 100% sure.

[Toril S]

I actually like the plastic buttons best. I also like that the entire button lights up on the Tyros and Genos,  this makes them easy to see for me. The black runber buttons with just a tiny light at the top that is on the XS900 was one of the dealbraking factors for me.

[BogdanH]

There's no need to take keyboard apart... just pull knob up 

Bogdan

[Divemaster]

Thanks Bogdan. 

[maartenb]

If you want, you could also buy a variety of knobs from Digi-Key in all sorts of shapes, colors and materials (plastic, metal). (I have no ties to this company.)

These pictures are from user davlippo7 who changed the black knobs on his Montage M.






Maarten

[Divemaster]

Thanks Maarten.
That may well be a more economical option. 👍

[rattley]

Hello

"Please let's not start pulling this keyboard apart before we have even seen what it has."

That seems to have become a favorite past time for some. I think the tone has gotten worse with each new model release. It's the same at other forums I visit. But then the whole world is different now. I can get pretty passionate sometimes putting my own views forth. A little common courtesy goes a long way. But I forget that things like common courtesy, respect and knowledge are practically non-existent any more.............OK  I'm done!    -charley

[Dnj]

I've heard rumors Genos 2 will be upwards of $6000.00+ US
not surprised with price increases on everything around us gas, food, etc, etc, ...
will it be worth it? who knows the buyer will have to make that choice.

[mixermixer]

...
The quality of the keyboard bed is also substandard!

Really? Isn't Genos using the same FSX keybed as the previous Tyros/Motif models?

I actually like the plastic buttons best. I also like that the entire button lights up on the Tyros and Genos,  this makes them easy to see for me. The black rubber buttons with just a tiny light at the top that is on the XS900 was one of the dealbreaking factors for me.

Same here, I liked the aesthetic of the whole button lighting up.

[ton37]

Hello

"Please let's not start pulling this keyboard apart before we have even seen what it has."

That seems to have become a favorite past time for some. I think the tone has gotten worse with each new model release. It's the same at other forums I visit. But then the whole world is different now. I can get pretty passionate sometimes putting my own views forth. A little common courtesy goes a long way. But I forget that things like common courtesy, respect and knowledge are practically non-existent any more.............OK  I'm done!    -charley

Come on @rattley:  those who have the last laugh... are the ones who will soon be sitting behind their new toy 

And Yamaha consciously fuels these speculations with their 'mystery tour '2''... so?

[rattley]

I know !!!!!