Quality of Genos 2 samples?

[jayfield]

I'm hoping the Genos 2 is a workstation/arranger. The Genos 1 samples are very good but still can't match the 4 terabytes of sample libraries I have on an external thunderbolt SSD. Those samples being from Spectrasonics, Komplete 14  Spitfire audio, and many others.  Maybe someone could enlighten me as to why nobody has yet made a keyboard with a huge SSD and many "gooberbytes" of samples. Large SSD's are not crazy expensive anymore.

The current Genos is amazing but I just wish more of the the samples were of the quality that I could use more of them in recording projects. Specifically the  strings need more work for me. Yamaha has done a marvellous job with their solo instruments and articulations though.

Im pretty sure the technology is available to create a beast of a keyboard with a massive library of samples that could compete with the "big boys"

It would be wonderful to have a more DAW friendly Genos with even better quality string/orchestral samples.

"send me in coach"

[soundphase]

The Genos1 was designed before 2017 (perhaps 3 or more years before) when SSD were not so quick, and when there were some issues when data was removed a lot.

[RoyB]

I'm hoping the Genos 2 is a workstation/arranger. The Genos 1 samples are very good but still can't match the 4 terabytes of sample libraries I have on an external thunderbolt SSD. Those samples being from Spectrasonics, Komplete 14  Spitfire audio, and many others. Maybe someone could enlighten me as to why nobody has yet made a keyboard with a huge SSD and many "gooberbytes" of samples. Large SSD's are not crazy expensive anymore.

They have (not quite terabytes, but currently 500 GB). It's called the Wersi OAX and will load VST instruments, but it will cost you at least 8000 Euros.

[EileenL]

Well as the old saying says "You gets what you Paid for"

[Lee Batchelor]

Yamaha could easily provide what jayfield is talking about. They simply choose not to because they would be shooting themselves in the foot. They don't want to sabotage the sales of other keyboards that provide better recording samples. The best example I can think of is the pianos. The Genos pianos are sort of okay but not even close to what they could be. If Yamaha gave us decent piano voices, we'd be less tempted to buy one of their wonderful stage pianos. Many musicians own two or three keyboards because no one is willing to build the keyboard that does everything. Besides, the cost would be more than I paid for my first house .

[mikf]

Compromise is almost always necessary in design.
Yes, there are differences between the Genos piano voice and the absolute best piano voices out there. But the difference is relatively small - almost not discernible to the average person when played well.
But the difference in keyboard feel between Genos and great pianos is huge, even a total beginner can feel that. And that makes the biggest difference.
But as someone pointed out earlier, the Piano voice is only one small set on the Genos, and a great piano like keyboard feel may not be ideal for many of the other voices, like organ, sax etc etc. not to mention cost and weight difference. So the designs always compromise.
Yamaha provides different compromises on keyboards aimed at slightly different target markets. The CVP and DGX for example offer better piano feel, but may not satisfy someone looking for a total music workstation like instrument, or easy portability. Even the number of keys on an instrument is a compromise which doesn't please everyone.
Mike

[jayfield]

Well said Lee B and Mik F !
I've been on my elusive keyboard sound search for many decades.
Played my first gig in 1966 on an acetone organ?
Now that is one cheesy sounding board!
Remember the organ intro from the 70's hit '99 tears"

Pops made me sell it when I got in trouble with the 'fuzz"
Dx7's , M1's, Prophet 5's and even lugged around a Yammie CP 80 electric grand for years
Must have weighed close to 200 lbs but the sound and action were unbeatable in the world of portable pianos back then. **** I payed 6000 Canadian in 82 for that fella

Point being,  I've tried almost every portable keyboard in the last 50 years
It's wonderful to see the progress in this technology
I'm psyched about the Genos 2
Yamaha has the expertise to really blow our minds this time after 7 years of no arranger
Dying to hear the demo on the 15th!
Let's go Yammie Haw!

[maartenb]

The Genos 1 samples are very good but still can't match the 4 terabytes of sample libraries I have on an external thunderbolt SSD.
[...]
The current Genos is amazing but I just wish more of the the samples were of the quality that I could use more of them in recording projects

The arranger is not built like a PC or Mac. It is built with extreme low latency in mind and the main processor is many times slower than your laptop or PC/Mac. It also uses considerable less energy (around 25 W or so).  It boots in 23 seconds. The sample memory of a Genos is around 4 GB and thus 1000 times smaller than your 4 TB. You just can't compare the Genos or Montage M to a desktop computer. A Genos does have far more powerful DSPs than a computer, though.


The bottom line: If you want to play real time, use a keyboard. If you want to record the best quality sound possible, use a DAW and VSTs.


Maarten

[rodrigo.b]

Well as the old saying says "You gets what you Paid for"

That's true, but remember that you can get free sounds with higher quality than the built-in voices of the genos

[ton37]

Well as the old saying says "You gets what you Paid for"

Or was it: 'You paid for, you gets WHAT ..?? '

[jayfield]

From Maartenb
"The bottom line: If you want to play real time, use a keyboard. If you want to record the best quality sound possible, use a DAW and VSTs."

Here's my experience:

My MacBook Pro loads Logic in about 5 secs
Then it's ready to go. All hands on deck
My 4TB of huuuuuge samples load via Thunderbolt 4 at 40Gbps almost instantaneously
The sound quality of these massive samples is "off the chain"
Only need a keyboard controller, a MacBook Pro, and  external ssd.
Extremely portable setup

The times uh be a changin
Nothing like it in bygone days

[soundphase]

I agree with Maarten but I also think arranger motherboards are chosen and designed far before the release. All must be designed, developped, and then tested (electronic, firmware, OS, samples, styles, tools....) and that should take several years. That's why technology seems to be already old when the arranger is released.

I'm quite sure Genos 3 motherboard is already designed.

[ton37]

No, I do not think so. It depends on which of the development dimensions take the longest or are the most complex. An important dimension is the sound design. The engineers will have to work on this for a long time to integrate it into the hardware. Making the software suitable for the hardware also requires a significant investment of time. The hardware itself is a 'piece of cake' for the large companies. A matter of having it made modular. This is similar to the computer industry.
So:
1. the company's financial picture (wants to make a profit again, marketing) and pay close attention: what the competitor is doing?
2. the intended and (financially) feasible sound design
3. ordering/purchasing the hardware. The development process and logistics run parallel to this.
Ehhh..., I have no idea if that's the case. But I had nothing to do while waiting for teaser 2....

[soundphase]

So we disagree.

I'm sure the SWP 70 processor took a long time to design and develop and the implementation (couple) has a major impact on the OS and the tools. So hard&soft are synchronized

[ton37]

No @soundphase, not that, it is just my 'vision/brainwave'. I would have no problem exchanging it for the idea of others who know more about these kinds of things. 

[pjd]

The arranger is not built like a PC or Mac.
Maarten

Building on Maarten's comments, Yamaha believes (justifiably) that their tone generation hardware gives them a competitive advantage. The high-end tone generator integrated circuit (SWP70) is used in virtually all Yamaha product lines (synths, digital pianos, hybrid pianos, arrangers, ...)

Yamaha cleverly built the guts of an SSD design into the SWP70. It streams samples from the same ONFI-compatible NAND flash as an SSD and has the same data (sample) cache RAM as an SSD. The incoming sample stream goes into the RAM cache which provides samples during playback. No SATA bus required. No PC motherboard required.

Because of the ONFI addressing scheme, Yamaha could make the waveform memory quite big. However, they believe in their sound designers. I will make a controversial statement -- streaming giant samples from humungous SSDs is a  brute force, lazy approach. 

Next, the SWP70 has dedicated tone generation channels and effect processors. There is no guesswork about latency or polyphony. When Yamaha say "128 polyphony", that's what you get all day long. No weasel words about "120 voices if no effects or other synthesis methods are used."

I'm not necessarily trying to defend Yamaha's approach, as explain it. I doubt if Yamaha will abandon this platform -- it's integral to all of their product lines and they get advantages of scale and re-use across product lines.

Hope this info helps -- pj

https://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-genos-main-cpu/
https://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-genos-tone-generation/
https://sandsoftwaresound.net/swp70-tone-generator/
https://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-montage-internals-revisted/

[Amwilburn]

Minor nitpick, but I saw one person posting about 7 years in between Genos 1 and 2, and now here as well; it seems to be a Mandella effect!
Genos 1 was announced Sept of 2017; G2 has now been announced in 2023; that's 6 years.

I assume the 7 year assumption (ha!) was due to Korg taking just over 7 years (May 2015 PA4x, July 2022 Pa5x)

Mark

[maartenb]

The seven years time period is repeated over and over again on another forum about the Montage M. This successor did take seven years after the original Montage.

You are absolutely correct. It has been six years, including two covid years.


Maarten

[ton37]

But we don't know yet how much delivery time it will take before you actually get a Genos 2? There are car brands that have a delivery time of one year. Or the transport ship gets stuck somewhere in Egypt or burns out in the Northsea or .. so it could become 7 years. 
Ad: in fact we are in the 7th year

[EileenL]

I would think the first batch will be on there way very soon to be available after the launch as is usually the case.

[Lee Batchelor]

I would think the first batch will be on there way very soon to be available after the launch as is usually the case.

Probably right, Eileen. Add 4 months to that date before Canada sees a Genos 2 at its corporate head office 🙄.