Fill-in problem -and my solution

[BogdanH]

The topic I will discuss here is hard enough to explain with words and so it's meant for those who have some experience with styles creation on Yamaha keyboards.

The purpose of Fill-in is to emphasize the movement from one style variation to another one. In most cases, that will be insert (fill-in) of drum pattern. In real drum playing, the drummer usually "finalizes" fill-in with crash cymbal, which is actually a "climax" of fill-in. But the thing is, that climax doesn't happen in fill-in: it happens in first bar at the beginning (in first measure) of the variation that's about to start after fill-in.

So, where do we put that crash cymbal? We can't put it at the beginning of variaton (even it actually happens there), because in this case, crash cymbal would be repeated every time the bar repeats -and we don't want that to happen. We only need crash cymbal once and that is when variation starts.
The only remaining option is, that we put crash cymbal close to the end of fill-in pattern. That is, if crash cymbal starts at (for example) tick 1910, we won't notice the difference in timing and it will sound as it starts at the beginning of variation. That works.

The problem is, the length of how long a voice can sound, is limited. That is, it's limited with bar length: 1920 ticks. In normal case that's more than long enough.. but not in case of Fill-in.
The thing is, Fill-in can only have a length of one bar. And if voice starts at 1910th tick, it can only last for (1920-1910=) ten ticks -which is way too short for our purpose (in this case crash cymbal actually cuts when it's supposed to start).

Here's my solution, which I hate, but is the only one.
Open the style in MixMaster and add a second bar in desired Fill-in section (can't be done on keyboard!). It might be a good idea to put one (drum) note in that second bar. Doesn't matter what note that is -just set it's velocity to 1 (=quiet). Now save the style and load it in keyboard.
Open the style with Style Creator, select the modified Fill-in and open it in StepEdit. As you will see, keyboard does recognize added bar normally and even allows you to listen and edit content of that second bar.
At this point you might think it would be easier (and logical) to simply put our crash cymbal at the beginning of that second bar. You can and it works.. but only as long you're in StepEdit mode. That is, the content of 2nd bar won't playback outside StepEdit.
But then, what's the benefit od having 2nd bar in Fill-in? The benefit is, that now our crash cymbal in first bar (at tick 1910) can be longer than 10 ticks! -and that's what we wished for.

This solution is simple and works perfectly, although the process is a bit awkward.

Now I just can avoid to criticize Yamaha again: would it really be that hard to allow two bars for Fill-in? Or to allow note length to exceed bar ending? It's because of such small things (limitations) why many look at competition.

I hope I was able to make this writing understandabe.

Bogdan

[vlbrgt]

Hi Bogdan,

Those Crash Cymbals are defined in the CASM of the style.

Regards
Etienne

[BogdanH]

hello Etienne,
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean... can you elaborate please?

Bogdan

[vlbrgt]

Hi Bogdan,

I verified, and what I mean is only for the Crash Cymbal when playing a 3 or 4 finger break.
That can be removed in the Casm.

Regards
Etienne

[BogdanH]

hi Etienne,
I'm afraid we don't talk about the same thing... the reason is probably my poor explanation of the problem.
In my post I used crash cymbal just as an example because it's used often and because it has long enough sustain -that is, it sounds longer than some drum. Actually, depending on music, any other voice can be used instead (i.e. a electric guitar).
Maybe I should make a video, where I could explain better...

Regards,
Bogdan

[vlbrgt]

Hi Bogdan,

I understand your explanation.
It was me who had not read it correctly.

In StylemagicYA I can see and hear the Crash Cymbal, as you mentioned, in the first measure of the section following the fill in.
What I am wondering about is, how come that we can only hear it just after a fill in and not in the normal section play ?

Regards
Etienne

[BogdanH]

hi Etienne,
Thank you for clarifying 

I don't have SyleMagicYA, so I can't comment about it.
I make all styles directly on keyboard. I know that may be weird for many, but I just prefer doing it that way. I use PC software only for analyzing things if something strange is happening -and in this case MixMaster really came handy.

In StylemagicYA I can see and hear the Crash Cymbal, as you mentioned, in the first measure of the section following the fill in.
What I am wondering about is, how come that we can only hear it just after a fill in and not in the normal section play ?

-that's interesting!
And in some way that proves, that this "Crash Cymbal fill-in issue" can actually work as expected -if only Yamaha would care to implement it properly.

Best wishes,
Bogdan

[BogdanH]

Ok, now I really feel embarrassed...

Although it's true what I wrote in my first post, it doesn't apply to drums (percussion in DrumKit). The thing is, the whole drum sample will play regardless of what duration we set. That means, even if we use crash cymbal close to the end of Fill-in (i.e. at tick 1910), the sound won't be cut.
Maybe I hallucinated the other day (too much of coffee?), but I could swear that crash cymbal was cut -actually it was the reason why I experimented by manually adding 2nd bar in fill-in.
Anyway, if normal voice is used close to the end of fill-in, then it will be cut. And in this case, adding 2nd bar is the only solution I know.

I apologize for confusion. ...now, where's that coffee? 
Bogdan

[jwyvern]

Anyway, if normal voice is used close to the end of fill-in, then it will be cut. And in this case, adding 2nd bar is the only solution I know.

Bogdan

Hi Bogdan, I have never tried this and no longer have a Yamaha to test it, but if the normal voice is a self sustaining one, (ie. the sound sustains for as long as the key is pressed eg. like a sax) is it not possible for a normal voice to sound across the bar barrier without a cut and without inserting an extra bar as long as the note that triggers it is a "long enough" one?
John

[BogdanH]

hi John,
I'll try to be precise with the answer... but in general, you understood the problem correctly.

As you say, voice will sound as long we keep key pressed. For looped voices (woodwinds, strings) that can be endless, while for for other normal voices the duration is limited by wav sample length. How long the voice will sound in a style, is determined by voice duration parameter -which is saved together with the notes that we play during recording.
Let's say we create a style which has 4/4 measure. That is, one bar has four beats (quarter notes) and each beat is divided into 1920 ticks -one tick (PPQ) is the smallest amount of duration.
By having one bar, the max duration of a voice can be 4beats -that's in the case if voice starts exactly at the beginning of the bar. However, if voice starts at 3rd beat, then it's duration can only be max one beat (=1920ticks) -because there's no more time left. Or to be more specific, Style Creator (StepEditor) doesn't allow duration that exceeds the total amount of ticks.
If we have style of two bars and our voice starts at 3rd beat (of 1st bar), then the voice can play longer than 1 beat, because there's time in 2nd bar for voice to play. In this case the voice can last for 1beat (in 1st bar) + 4beats (in 2nd bar) = 5 beats. Of course, if voice would start at 3rd beat in 2nd bar, then again, it can only have duration of max 1 beat.
The point is, when style sequence (number of bars) comes to the end, all voices end sounding. In general (in style variations) that's not problematic. This (voice duration) behavior can only be problematic for Fill-In's, because Fill-In is limited to one bar in Style Creator. And as I mentioned in my first post, keyboard does recognize and play 2bar Fill-In just fine.

Etienne mentioned (above), that by using StyleWorksYA software, one can actually put Crash Cymbal note at the beginning of variation and it will only sound when variation starts (and not while variation is repeating). I have no idea how to achieve that -is probably not possible on keyboard. On the other hand, if some note (voice) is a part of fill-in, then it belongs there.

Bogdan

[vlbrgt]

Hi Bogdan,

Further research with MixMaster, I come to the conclusion that the Crash Cymbal is included in the fill-ins.
It starts very late at xxx.4.1900 and has a lenght of only 12 ticks
i.e. Note start is at xxx.4.1900 and note end is at xxx.4.1912

I tested it by removing those short notes (cymbals) and effective they didn't play anymore in the modified style.
As they are situated in the fill in it is normal that they do not sound in the Main sections.

In my earlier reaction I mentioned StyleMagicYA, but apparantly the pianoroll is not very accurate in showing the exact timing of the notes.
But in the list they are in the fill in measure.



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[BogdanH]

hi Etienne
Thank you very much for that info! -mystery solved 

So my conclusion would be:
For drum parts, 1bar Fill-In limitation is in most cases no problem -or at least I don't see it right now.
However, for normal voices, 1bar fill-in limitation can be a real problem. And in this case the only solution is to manually add 2nd bar by using 3rd party PC software (i.e. MixMaster).

Thank you again,
Bogdan

[Amwilburn]

hi Etienne
Thank you very much for that info! -mystery solved 

So my conclusion would be:
For drum parts, 1bar Fill-In limitation is in most cases no problem -or at least I don't see it right now.
However, for normal voices, 1bar fill-in limitation can be a real problem. And in this case the only solution is to manually add 2nd bar by using 3rd party PC software (i.e. MixMaster).

Thank you again,
Bogdan

Absolutely correct; and yes, for a lot of Yamaha styles with cymbal crashes at the end, they do play at 1900 or 1910 tick count out of 1920 (well, actually 1919, since it's 0-1919, but you know what i meant)

Be warned though: if you change the drum voice in the middle of that single far bar? It can cause all sorts of hiccups. So only do the 1910/1900 tick count crash cymbal on a style track that you're not flicking the drum sounds back and forth. Try it and you'll see the problem (it can even cause the crash not to fire at all!)

As I don't have mixmaster, I can't add a 2nd bar to the fill.

Mark

[BogdanH]

Hi Mark,

...
Be warned though: if you change the drum voice in the middle of that single far bar? It can cause all sorts of hiccups. So only do the 1910/1900 tick count crash cymbal on a style track that you're not flicking the drum sounds back and forth. Try it and you'll see the problem (it can even cause the crash not to fire at all!)
...

-I'm afraid I don't understand what exactly you mean, but will keep in mind if something strange happens 
Anyway, that thing about crash cymbal at 1900+ tick is only usable (or "good to know") in case of fill-in.. because it simulates the cymbal executing at the starting of main variation -in all other cases (except fill-in) we would put desired voice (note) where it belongs.

As I don't have mixmaster, I can't add a 2nd bar to the fill.

I'm sure you know MixMaster is available for download here in PSR forum. I don't use it often and so I'm not that familiar with it. I fire it up mainly for studying styles or experimenting -as was the case this time (to add 2nd bar into fill-in).

I will just repeat again: if we add 2nd bar into fill-in, keyboard won't play the content of that 2nd bar. The only benefit of having it, is to be able to set longer note duration in first bar.

Greetings,
Bogdan

[Amwilburn]

Hi Mark,
-I'm afraid I don't understand what exactly you mean, but will keep in mind if something strange happens 

If you don't do program changes in within the fill, you'll never notice an issue. If you change the drum kit to for example, the cymbal kit at say 1900, then execute the crash at 1910, when it loops back over to using the main kit at 0000, it often has trouble flicking back and forth (why would you do this? Because the Audio styles, especially the ones from CVP709, often used the cymbal kit for the end of bar crashes; as obviously you cant play an audio style using that technique (the cymbal sound would literally last only 9 ticks)so when translating audio styles in general (for normal style use) this can be an issue.

The most common solution (and what they did on the CVP705, for example) is to just accept it won't be the same cymbal crash sound, and just use the closest one from whatever drum kit you already used for the rest of the bar.

Onacimus can verify this, unless he also ignored the slightly different cymbal crash sounds from the cymbal kits.

Mark

[BogdanH]

Thank you for explaining Mark!
Although I use basic method for creating styles, I can imagine that one should be careful with timings if more advanced techniques are used.

Bogdan