Piano sounds on the Genos

[Strideplayer]

Piano sounds on the Genos,

I am first and foremost a piano player and, as I've mentioned before, attempting my first forage into the Arranger keyboard world.  I have yet to see/touch a Genos anywhere here in the Southwest. Lately I've read a few negative remarks on the available piano sounds in the Genos. True, false?  I listened to the GFX on a P-515 some time ago. It was not my favorite sound but that is just personal preference, and not a complaint. I did like the Bosendorfer. I'd like to hear a few opinions, also whether additional piano sounds can be imported/downloaded into the Genos.
Thanks for your replies.

Strideplayer

[pjd]

Hi Strideplayer --

I think we discussed this in another thread, but these questions come up from time to time. Likely, we will get a repeat of past discussions...

Even though I love playing Genos -- and I am not a pianist first -- I don't recommend it for people who are "piano focused," for lack of a better term.

Yamaha builds instruments, like the P-515, for piano focused players. Looking at the P-515 specs, Yamaha incorporated a full dose of their piano technology: NWX, VRM, binaural sampling, etc.

Short story -- you don't and won't get that with Genos.

Could a better piano be loaded onto Genos via expansion pack? Yes. I will let others address their experiences. Lacking the NWX keybed, in particular, the Genos FSX action will likely never satisfy in the same way.

I did an analysis of MODX/Montage CFX, which is close, but not quite to the level of P-515. Genos factory CFX is similar to the single part MODX/Montage CFX -- which is often judged to lack depth.

I love Genos and would like to be more positive. Yamaha needs to do some work here in the next revision.

All the best -- pj

Link to analysis: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-piano-voice-programming/

[mikf]

The problem with the Genos for piano players is not the piano voice, it's the feel of the keyboard, like all arrangers. Midi it to a quality 88 key controller keyboard, and it sounds quite acceptable.  Even the best digital pianos don't match the sound and resonance of a quality real piano, but they are ok.

Mike

[travlin-easy]

Yamaha had an outstanding grand piano voice back when it produced the PSR-7500, which was a long time ago. The keyboard only had about 35 voices, and grand piano and vibes were just incredible. However, they were both mono voices - not the stereo voices that customers demand today.

Since then, the grand piano voice has been a bit on the thin sounding side, but it can be modified to sound almost as good as a true, grand piano. I did this several years ago when I purchased a PSR-3000 and was unhappy with the grand piano sound. I selected the midi grand piano voice and went about modifying it with the effects, then saved it as a user voice. The voice has been downloaded several thousand times and most loved what they heard.

Also, you must keep in mind that your PS/sound system will also play a major role in what you hear.

If anyone purchases an arranger keyboard and anticipates on onboard grand piano voice that sounds like their Steinway Piano that weighs 800 pounds and takes up half their living-room, they are fooling themselves - it's not gonna happen!

Good luck,

Gary

[BogdanH]

As pjd said, it was discussed many times and there are as many opinions as there are owners -which is to be expected and respected.

There's interesting piano sound "blind test" on Youtube for synthesizers. Does it give ultimate true answer? Is informative for sure.. and Yamaha wasn't really shining there.

I don't have Genos and so I can only say my opinion about piano's on my SX700: usable, but not good (comparable to 450€ Casio CTX-5000, for example). I made few custom piano voices and I got (subjectively) better results. That encouraged me and so I'm now working on new piano voice, where I will try with CFX samples taken from Abbey Road Studios VSTi. I'm no expert in voice creation, though.

Agree with Gary (above): we can't expect to get the "real thing" in our keyboards... but some voices in SX700 are almost embarrassing. I'm pretty sure Genos has better than that 

Bogdan

[rodrigo.b]

If you want a realistic piano sound the only solution I found is Virtual Instruments like Pianoteq 8, Production Voices 300 grand, Ravenscroft 275, etc.

[mikf]

Strideplayer
Just a few years ago we did a blind test of the piano voice here on the forum, on a variety of Yamaha arrangers. I produced a midi and it was then played and recorded on several different yamaha keyboards, including Genos, PSR, CVP, Tyros 4. Then the results posted here. We also had a VST sample. People were asked to pick the best one. Most people admitted they could hardly tell the difference and the choices of 'best' were basically random. I personally thought the VST sample was definitely a little better, but it was truly marginal, and the bottom line was that to my ear, all of the samples sounded reasonably like a real piano. Yes there were small differences to very discerning listeners, but then there are big differences among real pianos anyway.   
  As a piano player myself, I think the complaints about lack of 'body' in the piano voices on these arrangers is well exaggerated, and I would go as far as to say that they seldom come from people who are good piano players. They relate more to the way people who are not experienced piano players play piano voices on arrangers.
BUT, piano players will complain and rightly so about poor keyboard feel. None of these arrangers feel anything like a real piano keyboard, even a bad one, and as a piano player that ultimately does affect how you can make it sound, and the general satisfaction from playing.
The original sample was recorded on a CVP, which has a decent piano like keyboard, so that poor keyboard feel was removed from the equation, and we were truly only comparing voices.
Unfortunately that full thread has gone now, so I cannot post a link to it. But I include one of these samples below that I still had, so you can judge for yourself.  I am not sure which one it was, but it doesn't really matter because to all intents and purpose,  they all sounded so very similar in quality.  So you can use it to set your expectation for the Genos. Just make sure you listen through good speakers or headphones to get the best result.
You may want to think about driving the Genos voice from a decent controller keyboard to get better feel, and still have all the other Genos functionality. Even the Casio digital at just $300 is way better keyboard feel than any of the arrangers, except maybe the CVP or DGX.

https://app.box.com/s/b11mcgsvw2f0owmm4ci8b4ke4s79ov6z

Mike
BTW, if you are a piano player, don't ignore the DGX, it gives about 90% of the arranger functions and voices you are likely to need and has a fully weighted 88 keyboard, and sounds very good. not a bad compromise, and a lot cheaper.

[Strideplayer]

Mike,
Thank you for your excellent post.  And thanks also to previous responders. I must admit I feel a bit like a hypocrite. Looking for perfection sounds yet some of my favorite pianos have been old uprights, some out of tune, some detuned deliberately with hardened keys to give them that, uh, early brothel sound. Some of my early heroes, re: "influences" were the barrelhouse pianists of the day, Crazy Otto, alias Johnny Maddox, Joe Fingers Carr, and a few other happy souls. My main gigs have been with dixieland bands, and an occasional Shakey's pizza parlor in the sixties, with a banjo player.

The most advanced keyboards I've found in this area have been a P-515 and, yes, the DGX 670. There seems to be no market for higher priced instruments in this area. I briefly played a DGX a week ago in Tucson, (AZ). Nice keyboard and decent sounds. The problem, 47lbs weight, compared to my 38lbs P-90 which gave me a lot of trouble when I had to take it in for some repair. Remember, I will be 90 in October. The case for the Genos remains because of, for one, its 28lbs weight. And the many style options. I have entertained some hopes of playing in senior environments once in a while, if and when I still can.

Thanks again,
Strideplayer

[Graham UK]

Piano quality can't be judged using the supplied Keyboard speakers or most PA speakers.
Studio monitors or high quality headphones are required to be able to give an assessment of different Piano samples.
I use good quality headphones on my DGX670 and very happy with the choice of piano samples available.
If needed a few tweaks with the voice edit works well.
Also the weighted DGX key-bed is very good for the price paid.